Has anyone been stung by a lion or foxface?

I am new to this, and will have my first salt water aqairium soon! Getting a 90 gallon this Saturday. My question is who all has been stung by a lion and/or foxface and how bad is it? I'm wanting to put both in my 90, but figure i might get stung sooner or later while cleaning or doing something. Just curious, how bad is the sting? And is a foxface or lion worse then the other or about the same?
 

sexyfishers

Member
I don't want to laugh hard, but I did snicker a little. That's a question not too many will probally ask, but lots of us keep these venomous speies in our tanks.
I will say this, when my hand/arm is down in my tank cleaning, I make sure I know where my lion is at all times. He loves me (wink) so he hasn't stung me yet, but no seriouslly I am just careful to know where he is when my arm is in there. He, (7 or more stripes, mine has 11) knows what the feeder stick is and he knows that he is going to be fed first. My grouper is 2nd and he anxiously waits his turn, but not for long. My lion went in last although I bought them at the same time, so he isn't so bossy, but knows he is the king of the tank.
Imagine if you were trimming your big oak tree and a wasp nest was in there that if stung by the whole swarm, you could go to the hospital and/or die... that is the possibilty with these guys.
I have two maintence men that come out and do my water changes and tank cleanings... one of them was like, "woah, you know those things are deadly- right?"
He has about 50 years worth of salt water experience so I am sure he knows the risk, he wasnt too happy about the lion being in there.
However, they are georgeous and have wonderful personalities. Add some garlic to his shrimp... wow, he gets really happy!
 

sexyfishers

Member
oh yea.. with a 90 gallon you will want to get one of the smaller lions, like a dwarf fuzzy or antenneta or fu man chu lion because the others get too big.
Also, they are big eatters and can cause a big bioload so if you are starting an agressive tank you want to keep in mind that you can only put in about 4 fish in that 90 gallon (preferablly about the size of the lion or bigger, else he could/would eat them). Not sure about how agressive the foxface is at eatting.
You could add a chocolate chip or red general star and a hermit crab for help on the cleanup, but he will and so will most agressives eat a shrimp. I have heard of people with aggressive tanks having cleaner shrimps sucessfully, but mine got chomped within 1 day.
hope all that helps. Just read a lot of posts on here and start a lot of threads, eventually people will answer you, but most of the time you can find a post with your answers already there then you can just chime in.
good luck and welcome to the hobby!
peace n love, Tonia & Rachid
 

sexyfishers

Member
hey.. here are a couple of old posts that I found that have some good answers in them, basically asking what you asked.
you can go to the search option and type in your question and it will list a list of old posts on that same subject. hope that helps. :)
 

sharkboy13

Active Member
well i did once, called the ambulance cuz i had no idea what would happen, i was fine, my hand was sore forevr it seemed (3 days)
 

psusocr1

Active Member
dont waste your time unless your getting a dwarf lion.. it will outgrow a 90 quick.. same with the foxface but some people unfortunatly will say they are o.k in a 90.. i disagree
 

cagrn

Member
What about a tank divider to use when you are cleaning? Would that just scare them and cause them to become defensive?
 

v-lioness

Member
Many lions will retreat to a rock during maintenance, I have one that does Not, so I look before I dip my hand in the tank every time. The only time I was stung by a lion was during feeding, and it was my own fault.
Here is Part of an article that you may find helpful.
Lion Envenomations and the Aquarist / James W. Fatherree M.Sc.
The Envenomation

Stings from lionfishes are a defensive response, typically to being cornered or harassed in some way, with the dorsal spines being the predominant weapon. Lionfishes can charge at an adversary at surprising speed considering their less-than-hydrodynamic appearance, and wield the dorsal spines like so many tiny lances in a joust. This happens most often during tank maintenance, when the aquarist's attention may move away from the fish and to the task at hand. While most fishes will typically move away from a scrubbing arm, the lionfishes have a habit of occasionally moving away - just enough to get a running start back at the arm. I have been stung myself in this way, and I'll tell you that it happened in the blink of an eye. My advice is to watch what you are doing and don't assume that a fish you've had for a while has somehow turned "tame", as the 12" individual that stung me had been in an aquarium under my care for at least two years without incident. For whatever reason, it was "spooked" that day, and reminded me that I shouldn't be so careless as to ignore it. Of course, the other common way to get stung is to attempt to handle a lionfish during transportation, introduction, or relocation, with the end result being the same.
The mechanism of the sting is actually rather simple. Each spine is covered with a sheath-like integumen from tip to base, which is compressed down the spine when the spine is thrust into a victim's flesh. The venom glands are positioned at the base of the spine, and upon compression of the integumen, they are basically squeezed from above and thus release their product. The venom then travels through thin grooves in the spine and is delivered into the puncture wound created by the spine. As I understand it, the harder the strike, the deeper the wound, the more compression, and the more venom injected. Hence, light strikes can be far less injurious than hard ones. The venom delivered is variable in toxicity among types of lionfishes. However, in all species the venom produced is comprised of thermolabile proteins which, as the name suggests, are sensitive to heat.
Another aspect of a strike is the potential to have a spine(s) broken off in the victim's flesh. Recall that the spines of the lionfishes are relatively long and thin, and sections can be snapped off should the victim jerk away from an attacking fish at the moment of insertion. While the venom may initially be the only concern, a piece of spine left in a wound may actually be far more detrimental to a victim's health in the long run.
 

v-lioness

Member
The Effects
Again, while stories of death by lionfish are common, it has been impossible for me to find a single documented case of such after an extensive search of medical literature. Other authors have reported the same results. This does not mean that it has never happened, but it implies that death by lionfish is exceptionally rare or unrecognized. It may in fact be limited only to those victims that might display some sort of allergic reaction, or to those that suffer from a fatal infection related to the wound.
Conversely, in the vast majority of cases, the predominant effects of a sting are nothing more than severe pain and swelling (edema) in the area around the puncture. Some victims have experienced systematic responses such as nausea, dizziness, muscle weakness, shortness of breath, hypotension, and headache brought on by the venom, or as a reaction to the level of pain, or both, but that's about it. In the worst of cases when medical treatment has been administered, some blistering and/or tissue loss (necrosis) has been experienced in the wound area, but this is very uncommon.
In a series of 101 documented cases of captive lionfish envenomations in the US, the following effects were reported (Gallagher, 2001):
92% of patients experienced local pain
60% of patients experienced edema
13% of patients experienced systematic symptoms
1% of patients experienced tissue necrosis
0% of patients experienced death
In another study of 45 documented cases of captive lionfish envenomations reported to the San Francisco Poison Control Center over a 5 year span, the following effects were reported (Kizer, et al, 1985):
100% of patients experienced local pain
22% of patients experienced pain extending through the affected extremity
13% of patients experienced systemic symptoms
0% of patients experienced death
So, you should be convinced at this point that the odds of being seriously injured by a lionfish, while not null, are certainly slim if the wound is treated properly.
 

v-lioness

Member
The Responses
There are several things to do if stung by a lionfish, one of which is getting professional help. I realize I've just pointed out that the chances of receiving a serious injury are slim, but that's if a sting is treated promptly and properly. Avoiding professional help, or neglecting such an injury, can be very painful and can lead to real trouble. Applying first aid at home can help to relieve the pain almost immediately, but a trip to the emergency room is strongly advised.
As far as first aid goes, you should check to see if there are any obvious pieces of spine left in wound. If any are present, and can be easily removed, do so with great care. Oftentimes it may be too painful an ordeal to remove pieces yourself, and you may need to wait until a medical professional can take care of it. The pieces are best removed using tweezers and a microscope anyway, and it's likely that if you get stung, it will happen to your dominant hand. Left-handed home surgery (or right for the lefties) sounds bad to me - something to take into consideration. Special care should also be taken if a piece is imbedded near a larger blood vessel, a joint, or a major nerve, etc., in which case you can compound the problem by attempting to do it yourself.
While you may play surgeon and try to remove any pieces of spine yourself, it is absolutely imperative to make sure that any and all material is cleared from the wound. Thus, it is highly recommended that the area be thoroughly checked using standard X-ray techniques, ultrasound, or even a CT scan or MRI scan. While this may seem excessive, keep in mind that the subsequent infection of a wound can oftentimes be far worse than the wound itself, and that leaving even a tiny piece of a fish under the skin is a good way to get one.
Be aware that if you should get an infection whose effects spread into other body parts and/or systems (bacterial sepsis), you stand a good chance of dying even if the sting itself was not life-threatening. Therefore, in all cases where a skin-breaking wound is caused by a marine organism, tetanus prophylaxis (like a shot) is required if you are not already up to date. It is well documented that tetanus has caused many deaths following marine organism-related penetrating wounds. Likewise, numerous other infections can also occur in conjunction with such wounds, including those caused by Vibrio spp.
I can't emphasize enough - be mindful of the possibility of the after-effects of a sting. Bad stuff! Because the potential for these complications is so high, doctors may also use various antibiotics as part of treatment. This is especially true if an infection appears some time after the initial injury has occurred. Signs of infection include, but are not limited to, redness, tenderness, red steaks, swelling, pustulent discharge, and abnormal healing.
Hope this helps
Kaye
 

reefforbrains

Active Member
I dont know what I could possibly add to this thread since the above info is so detailed. Very good info to share with folks.
I have been stung three or four times over the years. First time I was only about 15 years old....Thought for SURE I only had minutes to live. Was expecting horrible blindness and body to constrict, organs to shutdown ect....LOL i was terrified!!!.
Turned out it was like a bee sting. I am not alergic to anything so after that I figured it was all hype and paid little attention to Lions....then BAMO got nailed in the forearm a few months later. Broken spines and the whole nine yards. MUCH worse and it sucked for a few days but I was again fine. (possible brain damage but thats has yet to be linked)
I do have a profound respect for toxic critters though and like someone said above. For being so flowing and soft moving, they can come with a quickness for ya if ticked. No doom and gloom, the above is awesome info for both what to expect and also to ease nerves. Just dont think "he likes me" and let your gaurd down
 
thanks for all the info, that was very helpful and a lot of great info on lions ! Anyone know if rubber gloves would prevent a lion sting, or can they sting through rubber gloves ?
 

reefforbrains

Active Member
rubber glove would be nothing for them to go right through. You can use the thick yellow dishwashing gloves but they are very cumbersome and wouldnt protect your forearm.
 

eel freak

Member
i have a dwarf lion and a foxface in a 75 gallon and what you do is watche the lion because a foxface is docile as i don't know what
 

murph

Active Member
I have been stung several times while cast netting for bait by what we call skip jacks. Most likely vary similar to a fox face sting. It can pretty much ruin a day on the water
Unlike insect stings the pain seems to linger for hours and is an annoying unignorable type pain. Allergic reaction is probably the biggest danger.
 
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