Help! Before everything dies...

reefkprz

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3182369
mmbltcsw1, I've done 100% water changes.... okay, maybe 98% water changes. Never had a mini cycle. So far I have done this about 20 times.
OK maybe I am only changing about 95-98% because of my sponges I have to keep submerged, but its also as close to 100% as I can get about once or twice a year.
 
reefkprz

reefkprz

Active Member
anyways this conversation seems to have gotten sidetracked.
I never told the poster to DO a 100% waterchange. I advised that in his case where almost everything is dying. a large water change would help, the larger the better IMO. "Dilution is the solution to pollution" in the case a 100% (or close to it) water change would defintely remove almost all of the pollution in the watercolumn, no matter what it is. I also stressed how important it is to match the water parameters as closely as possible to prevent problems. I am not denying that if done improperly this can cause a serious headache. No matter what kind of water you use when doing such a large waterchange the SG temp and ph should match the water your removing other wise you are going to cause problems.
here is how I reccomend doing waterchanges, and you'll note the first paragraph reads
ok there are obviously several ways to do a water change. not all of them are correct or even safe for your tanks. listed here will be simple step by step instructions on what I consider a proper water change. there are of course other methods that work just as well and are just as proper, dont think I am saying this is the only way.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/292237/how-to-do-a-proper-water-change-by-reefkprz
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by mmbltcsw1
http:///forum/post/3180756
Specific Gravity: 1.024
Temp: 78
pH: 8.4
Alk: 3.5 mEq/L
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10 mg/L
Calcium: 405-420
Phosphate: 0.4 mg/L
Pics were taken thru the dirty red glass
Pics:
1: Unhappy zoos
2: BTA not bubbly
3: Sand full of algae
4: Feather Duster showing its face but no feathers
5: Glass full of algae
I don't see much evidence in your pictures of good water flow. What is the turnover rate in your tank?
The Cyano on the sand causes a negative biofeedback and you need to break that cycle. The live sand will normally consume a significan amount of nutrients, the cyano barrier can prevent this leaving more nutrients for the cyanobacter to thrive.
I hate siphoning sand, but in this case it would be useful to remove the film of cyano. Cyano is usually a symptom of insufficient waterflow and excess phosphate. Fine the source of phosphate if you can. Overfeeding and tap water are typically the culprits.
You Anemone doesn't really look that bad. It looks stressed but not dying. This could simply be related to insufficient water flow.
Cyanobacter produces some mild toxins so it wouldn't surprise me if animals that typically eat off the sand start to become ill.
A very large water change after stirring things up is strongly advised.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Perhaps some are familiar with Randy Holmes-Farley and his work in the chemistry of our marine aquariums.
Here is a short excerpt from one of his articles on Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium. Particularly the last line here on the amount and effectiveness of using old aquarium water and its bacteria population.
"Many studies have examined ammonia's conversion to nitrite, and many articles have been written for professional and hobby aquarists that detail various practical aspects of the process, such as how to set up appropriate filters to facilitate this process. Stephen Spotte covers these in great detail in two of his books.6,7 Many reef aquaria have no filters set up specifically for this purpose, and the bacteria that carry out this process reside in coatings on most surfaces in the aquarium, including rocks, sand, glass, plastic and even on the surfaces of other organisms, such as coralline algae.
An important thing to remember, however, is that most of these bacteria reside on surfaces, so we should think of the aquarium as having (or not having) sufficient bacteria to provide nitrification, rather than the water itself as having them. This distinction is important when moving one set of organisms into a new aquarium. Bringing old aquarium water in with them may help to start a culture of bacteria, but will not provide much initial nitrification capacity."
 
no_wedge

no_wedge

Member
i do not dose, do about 15% water changes weekly in my 24g AP, keep sps as well. as long as parameters are good no need to supplement.
 
mie

mie

Active Member
I have battled this same problem before, all we did was siphon the top layer of sand out, pull the rock and scrub it in salt water, then do a 100 % water change. I would strongly advise you not to listen to "NewtoSalt1".
100% water changes are perfectly fine if sg, temp, and ph are matched. I have done them several times before. I would never put lfs water in my system. To many unknowns!
 
new2salt1

new2salt1

Member
Originally Posted by mie
http:///forum/post/3182676
I have battled this same problem before, all we did was siphon the top layer of sand out, pull the rock and scrub it in salt water, then do a 100 % water change. I would strongly advise you not to listen to "NewtoSalt1".
100% water changes are perfectly fine if sg, temp, and ph are matched. I have done them several times before. I would never put lfs water in my system. To many unknowns!
Yes, ignore me and listen to "mie." After all, his last 3 posts were the following (and yes, this is true, I couldn't make up stuff this great):
1. My fish have ich - how long does it take to go away?

2. My clown is swimming in circles - should I humanely euthanize him?

3. My Chevy Suburban just blew up and is in the shop.

Yes! I agree! Ignore me, and listen to "mie." He is obviously full of good practices.
 
reefkprz

reefkprz

Active Member
so apparantly you have found the "find all posts by user" link, and anyone else can do the same for you and see that all you do is post to disagree and throw thinly veiled insults around (though your latest post about mei wasnt very very thinly veiled at all) what his truck breaking has to do with his expiriences reefkeeping I'll never know, I guess that can be your little secret.
]
as for constructive posts how about these gems
This will be my last response because there will obviously be no practical discussion happening here

Ok I will stop bickering too.


To me, those vases could survive for another 50 years and if they look like crap, it's not much of an accomplishment.

I have a hard time believing a one gallon was ever kept for 4 years without being broken down if the person is keeping a well-stocked reef. Of course, this assumes the person genuinely cares about the appearance of the tank. Cleaning everyday only does so much. I am a bit of a perfectionist with my tanks so maybe you have different standards, I dunno.
so basicly yourt saying your a perfectionist and everyone else that is having success where you cant is a slob..ok gotcha we are all on the same page now. those that cant actually do critisize those that can
 
new2salt1

new2salt1

Member

Originally Posted by mie
http:///forum/post/3182676
I would strongly advise you not to listen to "NewtoSalt1".
100% water changes are perfectly fine if sg, temp, and ph are matched. I have done them several times before. I would never put lfs water in my system. To many unknowns!
Too many unknowns?? Dude, YOU are the EXACT PERSON who should be taking my advice!!!! Not everyone can create a healthy system on their own. You do fresh RO topoffs with 55 degree water? You have multiple fish dying, and not just one-time incidents? You use an uncycled QT tank? And you are gonna tell people not to listen to me?
Imagine how successful you could be if someone with tons of experience was providing you with healthy reef water! The fact that you have close to 2000 posts in 2 years is mind-boggling.
 
reefkprz

reefkprz

Active Member
I jsut cant believe you are so up in arms about the fact that a couple people think new water could be potentially less dangerous than the unknown of various LFS water.. I dont get it.
 
new2salt1

new2salt1

Member
It's clear not everyone likes the idea of using water from a local reef shop's display tank.
- Some people think you can "get something," which I admit is possible if the source tank is unhealthy. That is why I - in a case like this where a system is potentially crashing - suggested finding a local reef shop with a display tank that has been healthy for years and is not connected to the stock tanks. These tanks represent a shop's "best effort," and for some hobbyists here to "fear" a shop's best effort is laughable.
- Others think it's not necessary to buy seeded water because they feel a 100% water change would not lead to a cycle. I agree it's possible the tank won't cycle. But IMO, it's too dangerous if the tank is already experiencing die-off. In a tank that is having such serious problems that a 100% water change is required, we can usually assume the hobbyist needs some help. Relinquishing control to a reef shop's "best effort" is not a bad idea in these cases.
- Some people simply say "you just don't do it." It's sort of like Belichek going for it on 4th down inside his own 20 with 2 minutes left when he is winning - you just don't do it (Im guilty of thinking this way sometimes). It's like there is something inbedded in fresh and saltwater husbandry doctrine, and some people don't even ask "why."
But in the grand scheme of things, whether or not you like the idea of using water from a LFS display tank, I think you have to entertain this option when you consider the alternative. And when I say "the alternative," I'm referring to the practices of some reefkeepers. In my mind, the risk of possibly introducing something bad to the tank is an easy call to make when you consider some of these guys are using dechlorinated tap water, not testing RO before mixing, not testing for PH after making a new batch, not heating the water before adding, not cleaning their mixing supplies, not using quality salt, under-mixing the salt, not cleaning their hands before handling new batches, OR cleaning hands with soap and THEN handling new batches, or mixing water for 5 minutes and then adding it, etc etc etc...
Many people that have tank issues bring them upon themselves, and they could do A LOT worse than letting their local reef shop provide them with healthy, cycled water.
 
new2salt1

new2salt1

Member

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/3183915
all you do is post to disagree and throw thinly veiled insults around
1. On this thread, I simply I defended an opinion. You took a really really adverse stance towards everything I said. When you went as far as saying, "Ive done many many 100% water changes, never had a cycle," I decided to check your posts. I thought you were being hyperbolic.
And sure enough, you had written an entire post on water changes. And in your long post, you postulated that a 50% water change was ideal.
Bottom line, if you don't want past words used against you, don't make exaggerated claims if they aren't consistent with things you actually do.
2. As for "mie," I believe he began the ad hominem argument, no? He posted saying explicitly, "Do not to listen to him." Since he has close to 2000 posts (downright scary), I decided to see who I was talking to. And in the end, I believe his failures in fish-keeping should lead him to tread a little bit lighter, that's all.
HEY, say what you will about some my off-color remarks, but they ARE cloaked by a ton of facts, honest discussion, and success in this hobby. And if those quotes of mine are the best you can come up with, that should tell you something; 90% of my posts are marked by nothing but enthusiasm for the hobby and the success I've had in it. Oh and I'm a big fan of picture-taking too, so yea, if a tank last for 40 years but looks ugly, I dont consider it an accomplishment.
 
reefkprz

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by New2Salt1
http:///forum/post/3183924
It's clear not everyone likes the idea of using water from a local reef shop's display tank.
- Some people think you can "get something," which I admit is possible if the source tank is unhealthy. That is why I - in a case like this where a system is potentially crashing - suggested finding a local reef shop with a display tank that has been healthy for years and is not connected to the stock tanks. These tanks represent a shop's "best effort," and for some hobbyists here to "fear" a shop's best effort is laughable.
- Others think it's not necessary to buy seeded water because they feel a 100% water change would not lead to a cycle. I agree it's possible the tank won't cycle. But IMO, it's too dangerous if the tank is already experiencing die-off. In a tank that is having such serious problems that a 100% water change is required, we can usually assume the hobbyist needs some help. Relinquishing control to a reef shop's "best effort" is not a bad idea in these cases.
- Some people simply say "you just don't do it." It's sort of like Belichek going for it on 4th down inside his own 20 with 2 minutes left when he is winning - you just don't do it (Im guilty of thinking this way sometimes). It's like there is something inbedded in fresh and saltwater husbandry doctrine, and some people don't even ask "why."
But in the grand scheme of things, whether or not you like the idea of using water from a LFS display tank, I think you have to entertain this option when you consider the alternative. And when I say "the alternative," I'm referring to the practices of some reefkeepers. In my mind, the risk of possibly introducing something bad to the tank is an easy call to make when you consider some of these guys are using dechlorinated tap water, not testing RO before mixing, not testing for PH after making a new batch, not heating the water before adding, not cleaning their mixing supplies, not using quality salt, under-mixing the salt, not cleaning their hands before handling new batches, OR cleaning hands with soap and THEN handling new batches, or mixing water for 5 minutes and then adding it, etc etc etc...
Many people that have tank issues bring them upon themselves, and they could do A LOT worse than letting their local reef shop provide them with healthy, cycled water.
I'm impressed this is a well written post, and shows your opinions well without disparaging others. good job
 
reefkprz

reefkprz

Active Member

Originally Posted by New2Salt1
http:///forum/post/3183926
Bottom line, if you don't want past words used against you, don't make exaggerated claims if they aren't consistent with things you actually do.
what I advise as regular maintinence, and what I do once in a while doesn't confict as what I do. as a regular ritual I change 25% a week and 50% once a month. I dont see how that conflicts with my occasional habit of every once in a while doing a complete waterchange, I dont generally advise that to people as a course of regular maintinence just because as I originally posted it has to be done correctly or it can be dangerous.
feel free to use past words "against me" in some cases my views may have changed, or my knowledge may have grown to the point where the old statements are incorrect. (god knows I am only human and not perfect by any stretch). In any case I will continue to advise what I feel is best, and advise people to avoid methods I dont agree with. that is the beauty of this forum and others is the chance to hash out various methods since there is no abolute and perfect method.
 
mie

mie

Active Member
Originally Posted by New2Salt1
http:///forum/post/3183906
Yes, ignore me and listen to "mie." After all, his last 3 posts were the following (and yes, this is true, I couldn't make up stuff this great):
1. My fish have ich - how long does it take to go away?

2. My clown is swimming in circles - should I humanely euthanize him?

3. My Chevy Suburban just blew up and is in the shop.

Yes! I agree! Ignore me, and listen to "mie." He is obviously full of good practices.
I laughed out loud when I read your post.
I know how long ich lasts for.
Compasion for a fish I guess shame on me.
My truck broke. I will refrain from insulsts
My qt was cycled. Read more carefully. I am done with this thread good luck to the OP.
 
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