Help Fish Dying

[dwref]

I have a 125 gallon tank, 30 gallon sump that has been up & running for over 2 yrs. I am slowly losing fish?
My tank parameters are
No3=0
No2=0
Po= 0.03
Alk= 11.2
Cal= 450
Mag=1380
Amem=0
I use Salifert test kits for the above & have pin point monitors for the lower two.
Ph=8.1 to 8.3
Temp=79 to 81, when the lights come on.
I have
1 Eibli Dwarf Angel
1 Tibicon Dwarf Angel
3 Chromis
1 Yellow Tang
2 Clown Gobies
2 Black Clowns
2 True Percula Clowns
4 Brittle Stars
1 Striped Gobie
1 Red Dragonet
1 Green Dragonet
1 Scooter Blenny
1 Bi-Color Blenny
1 Lawnmower Blenny
All these fish eat very well, I feed a mixture of food.
But I have lost
1 Flame Dwarf Angel
1 Coral Beauty Dwarf Angel
1 Midnite Dwarf Angel
1 Sand Sifter
And to top it off, I have lost 2 Chromis?
I do a regular water changes
I do use RO water
I do dose with vodka, but this started before I started using it & I am only up to 2mg twice a day.
I also have a 36 watt UV on this tank
I have asked around & no one seems to know what is going on.
I forgot to mention, my tank is full of soft coral, none of them are dying.
The fish that have died, did not die all at once, they died over a period of time?
Please help &
Thanks You all

 

[srfisher17]

A couple of questions; 1.)Any friction with all those dwarf angels? Five in the same tank is asking for fights; I doubt this is the problem, but could be some of it. 2.) How long a period are you talking about? If all this happened over, say 1 year, it could just be bad luck. 3.) Any relationship between how long you had the fish and when they died? Trying to eliminate cyanide as a possible cause. 4.) Because your pod eaters are doing well, I assume you have plenty of mature LR, a real need for dwarf Angels, right? BTW Chromis seem to always thin their own herd; so losing 3 additional fish may not be all that unusual---and they were all Dwarf Angels, not always the easiest fish to keep. I've kept several DAs and am convinced that slow acclimation, no bullies,plenty of mature LR, and a dependable source (to avoid cyanide collection) are keys.

 

[cherylann]

I am truely sorry that you lost so many inhabitants of your tank. I think that 12 fish are too many for a 125 gal tank. The reason being that if even one thing goes wrong your tank is already stressed and things start to cummulate and go down hill. I could be wrong but you did not state you specific gravity in the previous communication. And I agree that keeping that many angles can only lead to problems. As far as dosing your tank, you really need to be right on and I do not think this is a safe practice. Some information provided states that is you do not continue to dose in a very routine manner you could crash your tank.

 

[ophiura]

If it is a sand sifter star - most will starve to death in 12 -18 months. If it just started to disintegrate, most likely it starved to death. I don't recommend keeping them.
So...these dwarf angels. How long did you have them before dying. Did you have them all at once and they died off or where they added. What were symptoms, if any (which includes they were fine and eating and dead in morning). How old are your test kits.

 

[dwref]

I have read your posts, I am sorry, but I have to disagree.
I have never had more than 3 angels at a time & they all got along just fine.
As for the number of fish, they are all only about 1 or 2 inches long, so that is not to many fish in a 125 gallon. My yellow tang is the biggest fish I have.
As for the dosing, I have read many, many posts, threads, articles on dosing with vodka & have even watched videos on it. Plus I know several people that do that on a daily basices & there tanks sure look very nice, with no fish dying. The dying period has been over like 3 to 4 months.
As for the live rock, my two angels that I have now, pick at it all day long.
The fish last different times, some die over nite, some last a month?
And the more bigger thing is, all are not just angels.
As for the salt level, it runs around 1.026.
Also, it is not only just Chromis, I have lost several different ones, such as the sand sifter, etc.
So, I am still looking for a starting point with my problem.
Thanks for your reply.

 

[ophiura]

When fish die overnight after a new introduction - that may have nothing to do with the tank. It may just be the way it is. That could go back to how long they were at the LFS before purchase, etc.
The critical distinction to make is whether these were fish you had, say a year, and then died...versus fish that died within a month of introduction.
Again, if a sand sifter star, most will die of starvation. If within a month, it is often acclimation...if longer, typically starvation.

 

[dwref]

My shifer is a diamond spot gobie, not a star. ( Same Fish )
No, they did not die over nite, a few lasted a week or longer.
The thing that I don't understand is, I have 2 angels that have been in my tank for several months, and are doing fine. Plus several other fish.
The diamond gobie was just put in my tank about a weeek ago.

 

[rcreations]

The thing about vodka dosing is it can work but you need to have the right conditions for it. You need to have a great protein skimmer, you need very good water movement, these 2 things are very important. This may not be why your fish are dying, just something to think about. Vodka dosing doesn't work in every case.

 

[dwref]

I agree, you must have a very good skimmer, I use a SWC High end skimmer.
As for water flow, I have 2 Vortec power heads, they are the MP40's. They move alot of water. I am getting black skim mate from my skimmer, that is what it is supposed to look like using vodka.
And only dosing 2.5 ml twice a day in a system that has over 150 gallons going through it, that is not much.
I have been dosing with vodka for 3 mths now, I am almost sure that is not what is killing my fish.
The company that I bought my skimmer & sump from uses VitaminC for dosing.
They told me that people have been using one or the other for years.
So, once again, we see a problem, but no one knows why it is happening?
Thanks

 

[trouble93]

Just to understand this more clearly...Your fish losses started before you started dosing Vodka. You have a good skimmer and good flow. And it's not just angel's that are dying? All your water levels are in check. Coral is healthy. I think we can rule out things like cyanide or to many of the same fish at once. Can anybody think of anything else it could be?

 

[cherylann]

I believe tanks reach an equilibrium, as in they reach a point related to amount of LR, live sand and filtration and tank inhabitants, this is a delicate balance you only have so much nitrifying bacteria and it can only carrry a certain load, but it will try keep up with the balance, but try as it might the addition of even a small chromis can cause adverse reactions and slow loss of fish. And I have also read many articules on dosing with vodka, and I do not recommend it, not enough research has been done. You should be able to have decent coral growth with a 150 gal system and a good lighting system without dosing vodka. Sorry no one can give a definitive answer, but it's a very vague situtaion that does not fit any one solution, leading me back to equilibrium.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by cherylann
http:///forum/post/3167105
I believe tanks reach an equilibrium, as in they reach a point related to amount of LR, live sand and filtration and tank inhabitants, this is a delicate balance you only have so much nitrifying bacteria and it can only carrry a certain load, but it will try keep up with the balance, but try as it might the addition of even a small chromis can cause adverse reactions and slow loss of fish. And I have also read many articules on dosing with vodka, and I do not recommend it, not enough research has been done. You should be able to have decent coral growth with a 150 gal system and a good lighting system without dosing vodka. Sorry no one can give a definitive answer, but it's a very vague situtaion that does not fit any one solution, leading me back to equilibrium.
I'll disagree, just a bit, with the issue if aerobic (nitrifying) bacteria. Assuming a tank has adequate flow and enough surface for bacteria to colonize, aerobic bacteria will multiply at an incredible rate when ammonia levels increase---as long as the increase isn't a sudden, massive increase. Breeders can keep growing fish packed at a density that a hobbiest would never consider with no ammonia/nitrite concern at all. IMO, the term"bio-load" is way over-used and fish dying, in an established tank, from ammonia/nitrite (or lack of aerobic bacteria activity) is very rare.

 

[cherylann]

A closed system only has so much surface area and rocks are only so porus, you can not have indefinte amount of aerobic bacteria. I see your point, but I do believe that grow out tanks are a good example in this case. This hobbiest has had quite a few deaths. He either has some disease process going on, some irregularity in his parameters or unlikely but possible a inhabitant that kills his fish. I think we can all rule out the chromis as they drop like flies and it's their expected behavior to kill each other off. It will be interesting to see what the culprit is.

 

[dwref]

Thanks for all the input to all.
I am not sure of what " aerobic bacteria " is? I do have about 100#'s of live rock, as I told ya, I am running 2 Vortec's, so there is more than enough flow.
I am sure that I don't have any disease, as I use a 36 watt UV, now I know that doesn't give me a guarantee that there is none, but I believe it is doing it's job. I change the bulb every 9 mths.
As for anything in there that might be killing my fish, I am sure that I have nothing killing them. Plus I have 17 fish in there right now, that are doing fine?
I will agree about the Chromis, but the other ones, well as we can see by reading, there isn't an easy answer to this.
I have read a lot about doing with vodka, I do understand that there are chances you take, but for the most part, dosing only 5.0ml a day, 2.5ml each time, in a 150 gallon system is not much, even though I do it everyday, that is still not much. Plus you can get rid of all the other chemicals that you would be using anyway. Nothing is going on with my corals? They are doing GREAT. That is a pic of my tank, under my name.
I know a guy that does the same thing everyday & has not lost a fish, so once again, we are still stuck.
Thanks again

 

[dwref]

What is a "Grow out tank" ??
Originally Posted by cherylann
http:///forum/post/3167271
A closed system only has so much surface area and rocks are only so porus, you can not have indefinte amount of aerobic bacteria. I see your point, but I do believe that grow out tanks are a good example in this case. This hobbiest has had quite a few deaths. He either has some disease process going on, some irregularity in his parameters or unlikely but possible a inhabitant that kills his fish. I think we can all rule out the chromis as they drop like flies and it's their expected behavior to kill each other off. It will be interesting to see what the culprit is.

 

[dwref]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/3166882
If it is a sand sifter star - most will starve to death in 12 -18 months. If it just started to disintegrate, most likely it starved to death. I don't recommend keeping them.
So...these dwarf angels. How long did you have them before dying. Did you have them all at once and they died off or where they added. What were symptoms, if any (which includes they were fine and eating and dead in morning). How old are your test kits.
I have had the dwarf's for up to 6 mths, some just lasted a week maybe.
I have had up to 4 in the tank at once, sure they chased each other around, but only for a short period. Then they found out, they have to live together.
A few have been added, no they never just all died at once.
Sorry, no symptoms, as you said, out, eating, swimming around picking on rocks, doing just fine. Then after a while, you stop seeing them, the while could be 3 days, or more. My test kits are less than 6 mths.

 

[srfisher17]

I think it might just be co-incidence. Fish die and we often don't know the reason. The chromis were explained well above; so losing 3 fish over time really can't be considered that unusal. I sure can't point to anything and your other fish are doing well. BTW, aerobic bacteria convert ammonia/nitrite to nitrate. BTW#2: I hope you are not using UV instead of QT. UV will not prevent or cure a disease or parasite infestation and I've heard a few disasters from hobbiests who assumed otherwise. UV can be a helper, but that's it.

 

[twood]

Do you think its possible they could have died from liver failure caused by cyanide trapping? A very experienced LFS owner in my area told me that he has had fish die from liver failure as much as 1-2 months after receiving them from a supplier. He said they were fine one day and dead the next. He once had an entire shipment of fish suddenly all die about a month after receiving them. He said he had a vet examine some of them to find out why. It was liver failure.
I don't know if all of the fish that died came from the same LFS or supplier, but I think cyanide is a possibility. Especially since your older fish seem fine and your tank appears to be healthy.
Just my $0.02.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by twood
http:///forum/post/3167627
Do you think its possible they could have died from liver failure caused by cyanide trapping? A very experienced LFS owner in my area told me that he has had fish die from liver failure as much as 1-2 months after receiving them from a supplier. He said they were fine one day and dead the next. He once had an entire shipment of fish suddenly all die about a month after receiving them. He said he had a vet examine some of them to find out why. It was liver failure.
I don't know if all of the fish that died came from the same LFS or supplier, but I think cyanide is a possibility. Especially since your older fish seem fine and your tank appears to be healthy.
Just my $0.02.
Good point, I don't think you can rule out cyanide. After I mentioned cyanide earlier in the thread, it seemed that some of the dead fish lasted for months....but after re-reading, I'm confused as to when the fish died.

 

[dwref]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3167619
I think it might just be co-incidence. Fish die and we often don't know the reason. The chromis were explained well above; so losing 3 fish over time really can't be considered that unusal. I sure can't point to anything and your other fish are doing well. BTW, aerobic bacteria convert ammonia/nitrite to nitrate. BTW#2: I hope you are not using UV instead of QT. UV will not prevent or cure a disease or parasite infestation and I've heard a few disasters from hobbiests who assumed otherwise. UV can be a helper, but that's it.
OH I will agree with that, they do just die & for no reason.
So, yes it might be a co-incidence, can't rule that out.
There are a lot of unknown reasons, bad supplier, been threw to many different tanks, to many water changes, etc.
I guess the one that gets me the most is, the diamond sand sifter, he didn't last but about 2 days.
But like you said, I have a lot of fish that are doing very well??
Thanks for explaining "aerobic bacteria". I did google it & kinda already knew.
Yes I do run a UV, not an QT. I have ran one for years. It seems to keep any
parasites or any other disease's from happening?
Thanks