(HELP) I may have to give up !
- Thread starter emporer
- Start date
scubadoo
Active Member
Originally Posted by Emporer
I'm really deperate. I need some ideas on strong moves rite now to save these fish. If they die ill prob quit. Im thinking of removing all my LR and treating the tank with copper. Is this good??
Do not treat the main tank with copper...JMO
Marine animals with strong immune systems in a well maintained system can usually kick the disease on their own. THe following is a list of conditions that allow the disease to take off if present in the system.
Poor water quality
Poor diet
Week immune system
Stress
Constant temp fluctuation of greater than 2 degrees
Overcrowding
Any of these condtions present? Providing the appropriate diet for each animal? Vitamins? Garlic?
It appears you may not have waited long enough for the initial ich outbreak to run the course. Ich can live for up to six weeks...not four. How fast did you add all those fish back? You should wait about 4 weeks if adding a medium or large fish between additions.
This will allow your biofilter to grow with the bioload.
The only methods proven to kill parasites (unless there has been some recent scientific breakthrough) is copper and hyposalinity. All the other stuff (additives) available on the market is nothing more thann colored water with some slime coat or some other ingredient that does not kill ich. If you use one of these magic potions and your fish got better it is because the enviornmental conditions improved and/or their immune systems strengthened.
Aquarium UV's are not big enough to be effective against the disease. The flow rate would have to be slowed to about a drip to kill parasites. at this pace...the ich is reproducing much faster than what is killed. UV;s only marginally improve water quality...a waste of money if you are looking for them to cure the disease.
Several large water changes of 50% done correctly (to minimize stress) o can help remove some of the free swimmers .
Copper can cause numreous problems both short and long-term with some marine animals. You can also try treating the system with hyposalinity but you will need to remove inverts.
Best of luck. JMO for what it's worth..about .02
I'm really deperate. I need some ideas on strong moves rite now to save these fish. If they die ill prob quit. Im thinking of removing all my LR and treating the tank with copper. Is this good??
Do not treat the main tank with copper...JMO
Marine animals with strong immune systems in a well maintained system can usually kick the disease on their own. THe following is a list of conditions that allow the disease to take off if present in the system.
Poor water quality
Poor diet
Week immune system
Stress
Constant temp fluctuation of greater than 2 degrees
Overcrowding
Any of these condtions present? Providing the appropriate diet for each animal? Vitamins? Garlic?
It appears you may not have waited long enough for the initial ich outbreak to run the course. Ich can live for up to six weeks...not four. How fast did you add all those fish back? You should wait about 4 weeks if adding a medium or large fish between additions.
This will allow your biofilter to grow with the bioload.
The only methods proven to kill parasites (unless there has been some recent scientific breakthrough) is copper and hyposalinity. All the other stuff (additives) available on the market is nothing more thann colored water with some slime coat or some other ingredient that does not kill ich. If you use one of these magic potions and your fish got better it is because the enviornmental conditions improved and/or their immune systems strengthened.
Aquarium UV's are not big enough to be effective against the disease. The flow rate would have to be slowed to about a drip to kill parasites. at this pace...the ich is reproducing much faster than what is killed. UV;s only marginally improve water quality...a waste of money if you are looking for them to cure the disease.
Several large water changes of 50% done correctly (to minimize stress) o can help remove some of the free swimmers .
Copper can cause numreous problems both short and long-term with some marine animals. You can also try treating the system with hyposalinity but you will need to remove inverts.
Best of luck. JMO for what it's worth..about .02
scubadoo
Active Member
Some options...a cut and paste from a great site....
After Observing Infestation:
Many products, chemicals have been advanced as being efficacious in treating for Crypt, some in combination with others. In general the more effective treatments are more potentially toxic... all are and their mis-use is likely more a source of mortality than the actual parasites they're being used to eliminate. Be aware that there are a few commercial "reef safe" remedies (pepper-sauce, garlic...) on the market that are unreliable to put it mildly. Rather than saving fish lives these persistent "cures" kill-off hobbyists by the droves. Avoid them by getting on the internet, converse with fellow hobbyists re what works and doesn't.
Temperature effects. As with freshwater ich, it's advised to raise your systems temperature to speed up the life cycle of Crypt while you're treating for it. If your livestock can handle it, increase your heating to the mid 80's F along with whatever other treatment regimen you employ.
A) Hyposalinity, lowered specific gravity. Some advocates place lower spg. as low as 1.009. This can work if your fishes are not too challenged already or the pathogen too virulent, however it will not effect a permanent system cure. Know that most common measures of specific gravity are temperature specific and that most non-fish livestock will not tolerate the lower limit (14-16 ppt salinity) necessary to kill off the parasites. Therefore your fishes will have to be separated from your non-fish livestock if you're using hyposalinity as a treatment mode. And there are exceptions, variations to consider using hyposalinity. Cartilaginous fishes (sharks, rays) cannot be treated in this fashion... and such osmotic changes need to be made gradually (over days).
B) Ionic copper solutions, chelated and not. Copper is an old-timey, but proven method of eliminating Cryptocaryon. Solutions come in two varieties, bound up with a "carrier" molecule (chelated) and "free" (as in copper sulfate solutions). Both types have their benefits and shortcomings. Chelated copper "lasts longer" in marine water, cutting down the frequency of administration, whereas free copper is more available, readily effective. Note that you need to have/use a test kit for either type of copper used and that they are different test kits. Whichever format of copper is utilized it should be tested for and if necessary added to twice daily. Often testing, adjusting copper levels assures that a "physiological dose", sufficient concentration (0.15-0.25 ppm over 7-10 days) of cupric ion is present to kill the tomite/theront stages.
C) Metronidazole (aka Flagyl), Quinacrine Hydrochloride, Quinine Sulfate. Not effective consistently.
D) Formalin or formalin/malachite or formalin/copper mixtures. Can be useful for initial infestations, treating large numbers of specimens, but the biocide formalin is dangerously toxic in the hands of the uninitiated. If used, shy on the low concentration, utilize extra aeration/circulation and closely watch your fishes and biological filtration.
E) Various schemes at moving infected fishes to new quarantine/treatment tanks, and vacuuming either bare-bottomed or systems with substrates: These approaches hope to capitalize on timing to eliminate intermediate forms of Crypt. Can be successful, but requires timeliness, effort on your part.
The Real Deal: Treating Fishes in Isolation, Allowing the Main System to "Go Fallow"
There are no "reef-safe" and effective treatments for crypt. NONE. Curing infested fishes involves separating them from non-fish livestock and treating them in that other system (or alternatively moving the non-fish livestock). Infested systems can be made "crypt-free" or better "crypt-virulence-reduced" by having them kept free of fish hosts for several (4 or more) weeks without fishes. If practical, elevating temperatures and possibly lowering specific gravity (to the tolerance of other non-fish livestock) can be employed to "speed up" the loss of virulence of the parasites. In practical terms we are generally talking the low to mid 80's F. and 1.017-1.018... with these values adjusted over days time. Care must be exercised in not possibly transmitting disease organisms from the quarantine system... on nets, containers, hands... anything wet, and drying, otherwise sterilizing quarantine tanks and gear between uses.
After Observing Infestation:
Many products, chemicals have been advanced as being efficacious in treating for Crypt, some in combination with others. In general the more effective treatments are more potentially toxic... all are and their mis-use is likely more a source of mortality than the actual parasites they're being used to eliminate. Be aware that there are a few commercial "reef safe" remedies (pepper-sauce, garlic...) on the market that are unreliable to put it mildly. Rather than saving fish lives these persistent "cures" kill-off hobbyists by the droves. Avoid them by getting on the internet, converse with fellow hobbyists re what works and doesn't.
Temperature effects. As with freshwater ich, it's advised to raise your systems temperature to speed up the life cycle of Crypt while you're treating for it. If your livestock can handle it, increase your heating to the mid 80's F along with whatever other treatment regimen you employ.
A) Hyposalinity, lowered specific gravity. Some advocates place lower spg. as low as 1.009. This can work if your fishes are not too challenged already or the pathogen too virulent, however it will not effect a permanent system cure. Know that most common measures of specific gravity are temperature specific and that most non-fish livestock will not tolerate the lower limit (14-16 ppt salinity) necessary to kill off the parasites. Therefore your fishes will have to be separated from your non-fish livestock if you're using hyposalinity as a treatment mode. And there are exceptions, variations to consider using hyposalinity. Cartilaginous fishes (sharks, rays) cannot be treated in this fashion... and such osmotic changes need to be made gradually (over days).
B) Ionic copper solutions, chelated and not. Copper is an old-timey, but proven method of eliminating Cryptocaryon. Solutions come in two varieties, bound up with a "carrier" molecule (chelated) and "free" (as in copper sulfate solutions). Both types have their benefits and shortcomings. Chelated copper "lasts longer" in marine water, cutting down the frequency of administration, whereas free copper is more available, readily effective. Note that you need to have/use a test kit for either type of copper used and that they are different test kits. Whichever format of copper is utilized it should be tested for and if necessary added to twice daily. Often testing, adjusting copper levels assures that a "physiological dose", sufficient concentration (0.15-0.25 ppm over 7-10 days) of cupric ion is present to kill the tomite/theront stages.
C) Metronidazole (aka Flagyl), Quinacrine Hydrochloride, Quinine Sulfate. Not effective consistently.
D) Formalin or formalin/malachite or formalin/copper mixtures. Can be useful for initial infestations, treating large numbers of specimens, but the biocide formalin is dangerously toxic in the hands of the uninitiated. If used, shy on the low concentration, utilize extra aeration/circulation and closely watch your fishes and biological filtration.
E) Various schemes at moving infected fishes to new quarantine/treatment tanks, and vacuuming either bare-bottomed or systems with substrates: These approaches hope to capitalize on timing to eliminate intermediate forms of Crypt. Can be successful, but requires timeliness, effort on your part.
The Real Deal: Treating Fishes in Isolation, Allowing the Main System to "Go Fallow"
There are no "reef-safe" and effective treatments for crypt. NONE. Curing infested fishes involves separating them from non-fish livestock and treating them in that other system (or alternatively moving the non-fish livestock). Infested systems can be made "crypt-free" or better "crypt-virulence-reduced" by having them kept free of fish hosts for several (4 or more) weeks without fishes. If practical, elevating temperatures and possibly lowering specific gravity (to the tolerance of other non-fish livestock) can be employed to "speed up" the loss of virulence of the parasites. In practical terms we are generally talking the low to mid 80's F. and 1.017-1.018... with these values adjusted over days time. Care must be exercised in not possibly transmitting disease organisms from the quarantine system... on nets, containers, hands... anything wet, and drying, otherwise sterilizing quarantine tanks and gear between uses.
ophiura
Active Member
If they are on the glass they are not the things attacking fish. Copepods are a normal thing in a tank and they crawl around on glass and surfaces...there are a NUMBER of other NORMAL and HARMLESS "critters" that are on the glass and surfaces.
White dots on your fish AND DYING FISH are not normal at all. There has been lots of advise handed out, lots of questions asked to try and help you and to really emphasize that there is something WRONG in the tank. All we can do is ask these questions and try and help.
White dots on your fish AND DYING FISH are not normal at all. There has been lots of advise handed out, lots of questions asked to try and help you and to really emphasize that there is something WRONG in the tank. All we can do is ask these questions and try and help.
emporer
Member
I Think those same white dots on the glass are also on the fish.. If it is in fact ich-- i will give up and sell my 125 and buy a 300 or so and get a shark. Ich has made my life miserable the past few months..... But maby.. just maby It is another harmful parasite. And that will relieve me because i have done alot to clear ich and it doesnt make sense even to my lfs. If it is somthing else all along ill prob solve this 123..
Hospital tank wont work well for me...... The prob lies deep in my tank... i let it sit for 4 weeks with a uv and treated with kick ich. If i had a hospital now--- i can put my fish in there let them get better and once i put em back... INFECTION!!
Hospital tank wont work well for me...... The prob lies deep in my tank... i let it sit for 4 weeks with a uv and treated with kick ich. If i had a hospital now--- i can put my fish in there let them get better and once i put em back... INFECTION!!
ophiura
Active Member
Have you tested for stray voltage?
Do you have any temperature fluctuation?
I'm with Scubadoo on this:
Marine animals with strong immune systems in a well maintained system can usually kick the disease on their own.
So the question remains of what is causing them stress so that they are not able to fight it off on their own. A new tank may not solve this problem at all!!
Do you have any temperature fluctuation?
I'm with Scubadoo on this:
Marine animals with strong immune systems in a well maintained system can usually kick the disease on their own.
So the question remains of what is causing them stress so that they are not able to fight it off on their own. A new tank may not solve this problem at all!!
emporer
Member
I just baught a voltage meter... Thanks for the suggestion. I will soon let you know the readings. The temperature however does remain consistant.
So i guess you guys arnt convince of it being any other paracite than ich huh?
Should i get a couple of cleaner wrasse? Even if you do suggest that,, i dont feel comfortable about taking them from the reefs
So i guess you guys arnt convince of it being any other paracite than ich huh?
Should i get a couple of cleaner wrasse? Even if you do suggest that,, i dont feel comfortable about taking them from the reefs
jlem
Active Member
Originally Posted by Emporer
Hospital tank wont work well for me...... The prob lies deep in my tank... i let it sit for 4 weeks with a uv and treated with kick ich. If i had a hospital now--- i can put my fish in there let them get better and once i put em back... INFECTION!!
Have you listened to any advice that the knowlegable people on this site have given you :notsure:. Nobody gains anything by giving you other than honest advice. You continually show that you already know what you are going to do which is totally different from what everybody that knows what they are talking about has advised you to do. Everybody has completely wasted their time by trying to help you. Good luck and I feel sorry for all of the fish that you will kill with your unwillingness to listen to sound advice
Hospital tank wont work well for me...... The prob lies deep in my tank... i let it sit for 4 weeks with a uv and treated with kick ich. If i had a hospital now--- i can put my fish in there let them get better and once i put em back... INFECTION!!
Have you listened to any advice that the knowlegable people on this site have given you :notsure:. Nobody gains anything by giving you other than honest advice. You continually show that you already know what you are going to do which is totally different from what everybody that knows what they are talking about has advised you to do. Everybody has completely wasted their time by trying to help you. Good luck and I feel sorry for all of the fish that you will kill with your unwillingness to listen to sound advice
lion_crazz
Active Member
Yes, I agree that he is trying to do good, but some of his comments make it seem that he is not quite listening to everything. If you were to set-up a hospital tank that you could keep the fish in, just something cheap that would keep them on the road to recovery, and run the tank for 4 to 5 weeks, the ich would not be able to live because there is no host in the tank. Ich needs a host to live, and without the host, they die.
Also, if you were to do that, you could prevent them from coming down with ich again because you would find out what was stressing the fish. There has to be something that is stressing your fish out to allow it to keep getting ich.
Also, if you were to do that, you could prevent them from coming down with ich again because you would find out what was stressing the fish. There has to be something that is stressing your fish out to allow it to keep getting ich.
emporer
Member
I was under the impression of qting the fish for a week or so and then adding them back to the display. Now that you say 4 weeks that makes more sense. I have 4 nice sized specimens.. wont i need atleast a 75 to house them for a few weeks. I also have an eel... can that act as a host??
michaelstern
Member
Originally Posted by Emporer
I Think those same white dots on the glass are also on the fish.. If it is in fact ich-- i will give up and sell my 125 and buy a 300 or so and get a shark. Ich has made my life miserable the past few months..... But maby.. just maby It is another harmful parasite. And that will relieve me because i have done alot to clear ich and it doesnt make sense even to my lfs. If it is somthing else all along ill prob solve this 123..
Hospital tank wont work well for me...... The prob lies deep in my tank... i let it sit for 4 weeks with a uv and treated with kick ich. If i had a hospital now--- i can put my fish in there let them get better and once i put em back... INFECTION!!
First of all, if you are having problems with fish, don't throw in the towel to try sharks instead. They are much more complicated, not less.
Second, the eel could definitely be host. It would need to go into qt as well.
If you could find a cheap 55 (it's too bad, I used to have one), that would do fine.
Definitley do qt and treatment 4-6 weeks. By then, the ich will be gone from main tank.
HTH
I Think those same white dots on the glass are also on the fish.. If it is in fact ich-- i will give up and sell my 125 and buy a 300 or so and get a shark. Ich has made my life miserable the past few months..... But maby.. just maby It is another harmful parasite. And that will relieve me because i have done alot to clear ich and it doesnt make sense even to my lfs. If it is somthing else all along ill prob solve this 123..
Hospital tank wont work well for me...... The prob lies deep in my tank... i let it sit for 4 weeks with a uv and treated with kick ich. If i had a hospital now--- i can put my fish in there let them get better and once i put em back... INFECTION!!
First of all, if you are having problems with fish, don't throw in the towel to try sharks instead. They are much more complicated, not less.
Second, the eel could definitely be host. It would need to go into qt as well.
If you could find a cheap 55 (it's too bad, I used to have one), that would do fine.
Definitley do qt and treatment 4-6 weeks. By then, the ich will be gone from main tank.
HTH
michaelstern
Member
Just curious:
1) do you have a refractometer? You shouldn't attempt hypo without one.
2) why are you so reluctant to set up a small hospital tank. It is MUCH MUCH MUCH better to do these things outside your main tank.
LOL
1) do you have a refractometer? You shouldn't attempt hypo without one.
2) why are you so reluctant to set up a small hospital tank. It is MUCH MUCH MUCH better to do these things outside your main tank.
LOL
emporer
Member
Theres a huge problem within my main tank... I have to solve it once and for all. A hospital tank is for a fish to get better then to put it back.. If i do that ,, I will put it back into an infested tank. WHY DOESNT ANYONE UNDERSTAND??? I have to remove the parasite as much as possible from my display.
darth tang
Active Member
Ok, pay attention. I have seen this stated in the thread and you keep missing it. Set up a Hospital tank. Do the Hypo in the Hospital tank. Do this for atleast 6-8 weeks. Then when you return the fish to the main tank the Ich will have died that was in your main tank because there is no fish for it to attach to. Ich can not survive without fish. And no, you can't have a piece of live rock in Hypo, the rock will die off and then when you bring your salinity back up it will start a cycle in your tank....causing another problem. You can place dead coral in there though.
Everyone has given you good advise. Now do some research or ask questions about Hyposalinity. Main thing to watch is your PH, this will drop frequently.
You are on Day four now, since you first posted about this.
Everyone has given you good advise. Now do some research or ask questions about Hyposalinity. Main thing to watch is your PH, this will drop frequently.
You are on Day four now, since you first posted about this.