HELP! Never had salt before!

[fishfanny79]

Hello all! I am new to this board but hope to find out many things about the saltwater 'underworld' here. First of all, I have read many things on the net, and chatted with many people - fish store workers and other hobbyists alike and no 2 people give the same info. Everyone has their own take and for someone trying to start out, it's really tough to decipher 'where to begin'.
A little on me...
I have 2 tanks currently setup (freshwater). I have a 125 gallon and a 29 gallon high. Within the next couple of days, I am swapping the 29 gallon high out for a 55 gallon from my stepdad. My mom doesn't want the 55 anymore and says he can have the 29. THANKS MOM! I was thinking that the 55 would be a perfect tank to start out my saltwater dreams. Of course I would love to do the 125 in salt...but think it may be too much to start with.
I would like to have live rock, coral and fish...but have seen some sites say that some fish are not coral safe. What is that about? Do I basically need to decide what type of fish I want before I know what I need? The 3 fish I HAVE to have are a lionfish, a picasso trigger, and a dogface puffer. This means no coral right? If this is the case, that's fine. The fish are the most important thing. (Just means I can't have my clown fish)
Now, I need a skimmer right? Is there a good brand? A certain 'power rating' or are they pretty universal? What do I use to 'move the water around'? I heard that the more water movement the better...is this what I would use a powerhead for? If so, again, brand and power/speed? What is all the equipment I have seen underneath some people's tanks? This 'package deal' at tbsaltwater.com says the tank is almost maintenance free because the critters in the 'package' do all the work for me. That means no filter? I also worry about taking care of the water. What do I need to test for in the water? how much salt do I add and what kind of salt? Table salt?
Folks, I am completely...COMPLETELY clueless with this fresh to saltwater conversion. ANY help, comments, or even jokes about my little saltwater knowledge are appreciated. Any links to info will be checked out, but personal knowledge is best. There is nothing better than hearing what does/doesn't work from someone that has been there done that.
Thanks for the help ahead of time!
Pete

 

[sinner's girl]

ok, let me see if i can help. first welcome to the board and to this hobby. second, remember to take things slow.
imo a 55gl is great to start will...big enough to not have to worry about drastic changes in the water.
most answers are given from people's expiracnce which is why you never get the same answers...some thinks are fact though (but even those will be proven wrong by someone...)
1st imo you don't need a skimmer depending on you flitration...we don't have one, nor do i see the need more you.
set up your tank...buy water (don't use tap)
what type of fliter do you have?
are you using live sand or crushed coral?
before adding any fish you need to cycle your tank. you can do this few ways. 1. by using ls and lr, 2. by throwing in a piece of raw shrimp from the store, 3. by using damsels, 4. a combation of the 1st two. Me? i'd use lr and shrimp to cycle. you'll a test kit to test your water or take your water to lfs for testing.
you'll need to test for amonia (sp), nitrites, nitrates. you will see your amonia spike during cycle. Once cycle is done you want to maintian these level at or near zero. you'll need to to test for ph also. there are others...
you'll need something to test the salinity (can't think of what they are called, your lfs will know)
before you add a fish make sure that fish can go in a 55gl with the other fish (i don't know about the 3 you want...but others here do, so ask.)
yes, use a powerhead to move the water around. more movement is not always better...it depends on the fish/corals you have.
NO TABLE SALT!! you will buy salt at your lfs. it comes in 15lb bags for about $15-25 depending on where you buy it (it's 20 at *****). How much salt to use will be on the bag...i don't remember right now.
the equitment you see under some tanks may be a sump (i wouldn't worry about that right now.)
I have to get to class, I hope of was of some help. Read some post on this board most questions have been answered before...
Good luck. I'll try to check back after class if i get a chance.

 

[fishfanny79]

thanks a lot for the reply...as to what I have right now, I have NOTHING for saltwater. I am starting from scratch. And what I meant by 'not wanting to wait for the stuff to get here', I meant the sand, live rock etc when I know a good pet store in my area that has nice fuji rock. Live sand though, I don't know if they have that.
I know the tank must cycle before I add my fish. What do you mean add a raw shrimp? Just throw a dead one in from the seafood department? This will cycle my tank? Hmmm, it also takes quite a while to cycle or so I've read. As long as my nitrites and nitrates are at 0, I can add stuff? You don't suggest a skimmer on a 55 gallon? I really didn't want to do an undergravel filter, I hate those darn things. I have one in the 29 high and it's just junk. The 125 has 2 over the back filters.
What I was actually hoping for is some sand, some live rock and a few fish, crustaceans and maybe a nice piece of coral if it will work.

 

[fishfanny79]

Since this is my post, I guess I can add to it...
What is the difference between starting with sand and starting with crushed coral at the bottom of the tank? Is one better? Is one cheaper? Do certain fish/crustaceans prefer one to the other? Can you have both?

 

[aileena]

1) the filtration: I would use 1lbs of live rock per gallon for biological filtration thats a awesome start. I would get a skimmer for chemical filtration its amazing the crap a skimmer can remove, I like the CPR backpack skimmers since they are good for up to 60g. I bought my skimmer used for 80$ but bought a new rio pump for it. The LR varies in price shop around. You can use a wet/dry for mechanical filtration I don't use anything for mechanical filtration just skimmer and LR!
2) The water: See if you can get premixed saltwater from the fish store. Check to see if they use reverse osmosis water. Never use tap water. Use salt from pet store like instant ocean is good. If you have to mix it yourself use fresh water sold in the store its better than tap and cheaper than buying a R/O unit! Buy a hydrometer to check your salinity levels its a must have! Buy test kits for NITRITE, NITRATE, AMONIA, and KH these are the essentials when starting out! Make sure when you set up the tank with water you let it cycle for 2-6 weeks! Read about the cycle in other posts or buy a book You should check your water once a week! Before you add fish 0 amonia and 0 nitrites always. Nitrates can be overcome in the long term with water changes.
3) the substrate: This is so debated its taboo to talk about! I used a fine crushed coral in my tank and I like it, but others are

[hr]
Live sand advocates. Do the research for yourself. If you use crushed coral RINSE IT THROUGHLY FIRST unless you get it from an already established tank!
4) Be aware of fish compatability don't but a chromis with inverts and then go and buy a huge lionfish that will eat them! Always check your water conditions and alcimate the fish slowlt to there new surroundings!
GOOD LUCK

 

[fishfanny79]

Hey aileena...thanks a ton for the input. Just a few things though, enough of the lingo mumbo jumbo! lol, I said I'm new to this saltwater game...all I know about is neons, painted glass fish and tinfoil barbs! A few of the things I didn't comprehend:
1) wet/dry for mechanical filtration
2) reverse osmosis water
3) R/O unit
4) don't but a chromis with inverts
So you are saying I can use live rock and animals as filtration to eliminate the mechanical filtration? What in gods name is an R/O unit? And didn't plan on throwing any 'chromis' on my inverts' rides! Seriously though, what is a chromi? If I get my wish of the lionfish, I was going to get one of the dwarf ones, that way it won't eat everything and won't get too big for my tank. I plan on finding out ALL of the compatibilites of fish, crustaceans etc when that time comes. That is way down the road though, I just want to get this party started! Break it down Barney style for me...what is the bare necessities to get my cycle started? List that for me, and I'll have it by tomorrow (hopefully) Just remember to KISS (keep it simple stupid) sine I'm not exactly Jacques Custeau over here. Does anyone know if there is a SALTWATER FISH edition of the DUMMIE'S books? If so, is it helpful?

 

[jim672]

FishFanNY79,
A chromis is a type of fish. Aileena was suggesting you not put a fish like a chromis and other "community tank" dwellers like snails and hermit crabs in with aggressive fish like lions, triggers or puffers. Although a dwarf lion will fit in a 55, having one will restrict the other inhabitants of your tank. Lionfish are known for eating anything they can fit in their mouths.......and they have very big mouths.
I'd follow nolofinwe's advice......get a good book. The one he suggests, by Fenner, is excellent! I bought it a couple years ago and still refer to it from time to time.........and it's pretty easy to understand !!
Jim

 

[fishfanny79]

You guys really don't know how much I appreciate the input. I am going to go to the bookstore after work today and check it out.
Do any of you suggest doing the 125 gallon saltwater instead because it may be easier? I just thought the bigger tank would be way too expensive for me...who knows.

 

[aak420]

You need to have a more clear idea of what you want and what will work. If you have your heart set on those three fish, then you can't have corals, small fish, clams, shrimp, crabs or such. A Lionfish is fine for reefs other than eating smaller fish. The dogface and trigger are both aggressive in nature and carnivorous. The reason you get so many different answers are because everybody in this hobby has an exception to the general rule. If you stick with the 3 fish then you only need a biowheel filtration systew to hang on back of tank. The Emporer from Marineland would work great fo a 55 gal. Crushed coral in the bottom, easier to vacuum and keep clean than sand. A protein skimmer is not necessary for those fish or really any fish at all. If you have some insane desire to have some sort of "exoctic" equipement a UV Setrilizer would do you best. The salt measurement device is a hydrometer. And, unless you know of something in the water in your area that makes it unsafe for humans than it is perfectly safe for your fish. The best thing to test for in your local water supply is phosphates. If there is a high level of phospate present than your have an increased likelihood of undesireable algaes. Your fish won't know the difference between water from the store, revers osmosis unit, or tap. You can use live rock for decoration and it will be useful if you ever want to make the transition to a reef tank. Sorry so long!!

 

[aak420]

I forgot one thing. T A great fish to use to cycle your tank and one that is compatable with all of the other fish and even a reef tank down the road is a yellow tang. Make sure to get a hardy, good looking and have them show you it eats! I have used these for 15 years myself and have had hundreds of customers use them with very limited failure.

 

[jim672]

I have a 45 gallon "show" tank and a 10 gallon quarantine. A 55 sounds big to me .
There are some experienced reef keepers who will suggest that "the bigger the better". What they mean is the more water volume you have the easier it is for your tank to recover from small water quality issues. This is definitely true. However, all of your expenses and work increase, as you would expect, the bigger the tank. (Example: following the one lb. of live rock per gallon rule of thumb........let's say you canfind lr for $5/ lb.......$5 x 55= $275. $5 x 125 = $625). I think you get the idea.
There are lots of others who feel that size doesn't matter. I think I recall someone taking about setting up a 3.5 gallon reef tank.
One of the moderators has a signature line that says: "your tank~your choice". How true........
Jim

 

[jim672]

FishFanNY79,
Most of the advice you'll get from people that use this board is sound. Unfortunately some is not. The last two posts from aak420 is very bad advice. Please ignore it.
Jim

 

[aak420]

Clarify Jim. What part and why. We can all make claims but back it up. The hobby is just that hobby not science. Personal experience leads to many conclusions which ones don't you agree with?

 

[jim672]

aak420,
Some examples include suggesting to use a yellow tang to cycle a tank. Geez man......yellows are about the most susceptible to ick of any tang. A cycle will stress a fish to the limit. You know that stress, particularly in tangs, will lead to ick. Your advice is not only likely dooming the fish but also will cause ANOTHER 6 weeks of no new additions as the tank rids itself of ick. Another would be suggesting he can keep a trigger, lion and puffer in a 55. Triggers not only will outgrow a 55 but (as they're out-growing the tank)they're very messy eaters and will tax the 55's biofiltration system to the limit. Another--popular opinion indicates skimmers are recommended. Most of what I've read indicated UV sterilizers, particularly if they're in the tank and not a refugium. are unnecessary.
I've reread my post and must apologize if it sounds like a personal affront. If you spend more time on this board I think you'll see that most people try to provide generally acceptable, "rule of thumb"-type advice to beginners. I was trying for that. Your experience, and the advice you gave, apparently has gone contrary to that.
Jim

 

[fishfanny79]

As much as I want them, I think I'm gonna scrap the lionfish, dogface and picasso trigger theory. I would rahther have tons of clams, crabs, starfish, lobsters, shrimps, and stuff like that than 1 or 2 fish. What fish are compatible with some coral and crustaceans? Coral/crustacean combo's are no problem right?

 

[waterbury guy]

Another good book I refer to often for fish compatability is
Marine Fishes: 500+ Essential-To-Know Aquarium Species (The Pocketexpert Guide Series for Aquarists and Underwater Naturalists, 1)
by Scott W. Michael
I would hihgly reccomend getting this as well.
Jim672 has some good points about the yellow tang. Also why possibly kill a beautiful fish when a piece of shrimp form the deli counter will do the same job.

 

[jim672]

There are lots of fish that can be kept with corals and crustaceans. If you pick up the Fenner book, you'll be able to read about their compatibilities and see pictures of many of them. Clowns, basslets, cardinals, damsels, and some of the dwarf angels (centropyge group) will be fine.
Be careful with some of the crustaceans........lobsters are not necessarily safe with all corals. Clams require very intense lighting but are beautiful. Some of the crabs like to snack on some corals.
Jim

 

[slothy]

ya i was in the same boat, fish or weird $$ plants (corals) i know that they are not plants hehe )... after seeing pics and some reef tank at lfs's i went that route, reason being yes watching fish swim is neat, but seeing weird crap crawl out from under a rock, that you have no idea what is seems waaay neater to me.. plus i can have some fish tooo.....

 

[aileena]

1) filtration response. Just get yourself a good skimmer and lots of Live Rock! Just be sure that the skimmer you get handles the gallons in your tank! People have different preferences on brands! Wet/ Dry filter is like Penguin or Whisper or other types of that sort. Great for a hospital tank but thats about it!
2) Chromis inverts agressive fish was explained well enough earlier
3) Reverse Osmosis or R/O is a water that has been filtered through several types of media filters. This is the water you need to use. Either the fish store will have premixed saltwater or you can buy a unit to hook up to your tap that will make R/O water for you and you will have to mix it with salt. Personally I believe that the water they sell in stores in the gallons as spring water or that new mineral water stuff works well too! Just never use your tap water unless you know for sure that it contains no traces of nitrates, clorine, bleach, phosphates, any of that good stuff!
4) Take your time. If you want to get wild set up the tank with water in it and put a powerhead or two in it! Just be sure you use the right water and the salt level is 1.024 +/- .002 ! Get that hydrometer! Then you can buy a skimmer if you wish and hook it all up! You can add some substrate too! Rinse it if its crushed coral! Be cautious if its live sand, I know nothing about that! Then add your live rock in a week or two! Get the test kits and wait! add a damsel fish or a chromis in 2 weeks if all seems cool!
Good Luck

 

[sistrmary]

Do your savings/checking account a huge favor and wait for quite a while on the clams They're very expensive and semi hard to keep (depending on experience, lighting and water quality, etc) I'm not saying don't ever try it...just make sure that your water is ready for them.
You don't have to give up on the lionfish, there are quite a few different kinds of lionfish that will be acceptable for a 55gal. In some opinions, all of the lionifish are acceptable for a 55 (However, IME/O the Volitans get too big for a comefortable life in the aquarium, but opinions will differ with me on this. Any of the dwarf species, or a radiata or antennata would be perfect for your tank) The only drawback of lionfish that I've found is that you have to know where they are at all times when working in your tank, (because they're venomous) and that sometimes they're hard to wean away from live feeders.
Puffers get a bit big, most of them require at least a 75gal...and they'll eat any smaller additions to your tank. Triggers...well, triggers are hit and miss. Cool looking, but sometimes they're evil and pick everything in your tank apart (including fish, shrimp, crabs...heater tubing...)
I'm glad you're asking so many questions and actually *listening* to the advice given you. A lot of times on forums people will give what I call "Extreme Advice". Meaning that they'll take their experiences and consider it a fact...that because their fish/corals/whatever act a certain way, that all of them will. Usually, these opinions are given with the best of intentions. In my experience with saltwater, there are no rules. There are general thoughts and ideals that most people will follow, but for every person that tells you that yellow tangs require a 75gal, there will be someone else to tell you that they've had one for years in a 10gal.
In all this yammering, what I'm trying to say is take whatever advice that you are given with a rather large grain of salt. (Especially if it comes from your local fish store ) As good as some of the advice here, there are still some that don't really understand what they're doing. Read. Read a lot of books written by people who do this for a living. (Not that this is gospel either, but evenrually, you'll realize how little you and everyone else knows about this business. lol)