Hypo treatment? PLEASE HELP

[theclemsonkid]

Ok, so after reading things over, I think we are going to go with the hyposalinity treatment.
It's pretty much an all fish tank, with the exception of two pieces of live rock and a starfish. I've already talked to a friend who is going to take the starfish for a month or so and keep it in his tank as long as we need.
The rest of the rock is tufa rock, with some beginning algae growth. I assume that leaving all the rocks in there, the algae and all the live rock will die with the hypo treatment, which is fine with me. I also assume that any living micro organisms in the sand will also die. I am fine with that... those things can be replaced easily.
I have three fish infected for sure (coral beauty, gold rimmed tang, strawberry psudeochromis) and a percula clownfish who isn't showing any signs. Once I start treatment, can I leave the clownfish in too? I assume I can, that its ok to treat him too, even if he isn't showing signs.
From what I've read:
"Over the course of 48-hrs, salt water in the tank is replaced with fresh RO or DI water in several, but small increments until a SG of 1.009/salinity 14-16 ppt is achieved.
Maintain pH, as pH tends to lower in hypo-saline water; you need to maintain a pH which is safe for marine fish and consistent with the levels in the display/hospital tank.
Maintain the 1.009 SG/16-14 ppt salinity in the tank for 3-4 wks AFTER no visible signs of ich are present with your fish. After that time, you can slowly, over the course of several [5-7] days, raise the salinity back to normal levell. Take longer raising the salinity then you did lowering it. If the fish are in a separate treatment tank, leave them there for 5-7 days after returning the salinity to normal levels. If the fish are well after this time, then move them back to the display."
Does this sound about right? I have found that in this hobby I get a lot of different answers to questions, so I would like some feedback on this please! I need to get going on this ASAP!!!
Thanks so much!
Jonathan

 

[lion_crazz]

Ok, so after reading things over, I think we are going to go with the hyposalinity treatment.
A great choice, if done properly.
It's pretty much an all fish tank, with the exception of two pieces of live rock and a starfish. I've already talked to a friend who is going to take the starfish for a month or so and keep it in his tank as long as we need.
Addressed in your other thread..
The rest of the rock is tufa rock, with some beginning algae growth. I assume that leaving all the rocks in there, the algae and all the live rock will die with the hypo treatment, which is fine with me. I also assume that any living micro organisms in the sand will also die. I am fine with that... those things can be replaced easily.
Agreed that they can be replaced, but you may not lose everything if it is a smooth hypo process. This is not your only biological, I assume.
I have three fish infected for sure (coral beauty, gold rimmed tang, strawberry psudeochromis) and a percula clownfish who isn't showing any signs. Once I start treatment, can I leave the clownfish in too? I assume I can, that its ok to treat him too, even if he isn't showing signs.
The clown must be left in.
From what I've read:
"Over the course of 48-hrs, salt water in the tank is replaced with fresh RO or DI water in several, but small increments until a SG of 1.009/salinity 14-16 ppt is achieved.
Maintain pH, as pH tends to lower in hypo-saline water; you need to maintain a pH which is safe for marine fish and consistent with the levels in the display/hospital tank.
Maintain the 1.009 SG/16-14 ppt salinity in the tank for 3-4 wks AFTER no visible signs of ich are present with your fish. After that time, you can slowly, over the course of several [5-7] days, raise the salinity back to normal levell. Take longer raising the salinity then you did lowering it. If the fish are in a separate treatment tank, leave them there for 5-7 days after returning the salinity to normal levels. If the fish are well after this time, then move them back to the display."
Does this sound about right? I have found that in this hobby I get a lot of different answers to questions, so I would like some feedback on this please! I need to get going on this ASAP!!!
This is the correct process. Do you have a refractometer to use in the process, as well as pH 8.3 buffer?

 

[al mc]

Good plan..I did myself about 2 years ago when forst in the hobby....
My only concern (and one of the mods will corresct me if I am wrong).....the sea star could bring Ich along with it to your friends tank. While inverts are unaffected by Ich they could, in theory, carry it on the surface of their body carry it into a tank. Does he/she have a small QT tank?
Mods, please correct if this is incorrect.

 

[theclemsonkid]

I don't have a refractometer yet, however I will be making that purchase here on my way to work in a few minutes. Any suggestions of which one to buy? I can already see they will run the range of inexpensive to a few

[hr]
payments. I also already have a pH buffer.
Thanks!

 

[theclemsonkid]

why did the word "m o r t g a g e" get erased on that last post?

 

[al mc]

For the hobbyists purposes I would get an inexpensive one (don't know of any brand names). I usually get mine 'on line' for about $40-50. As long as you calibrate it (some come with liquid to do this, but distilled water works great) I see no reason to buy an expensive one.

 

[saltn00b]

also pay close attention to Alkalinity, it drops very quickly when the salinity gets low. keep a multi buffer on hand like Kent Marine Super Buffer dKH. it buffs both pH and Alk.

 

[saltn00b]

also there is no scientific evidence or reason why inverts could carry ick on their body. i believe that is a false rumor that has travelled around the internet stemming from the fact that the part of the parasite's life cycle that burrows in calcerous substances (tomont , i believe) can burrow into the exposed skeleton of a coral, and hence a coral addition could possibly , although unlikely, deliver the parasite into a system.

 

[theclemsonkid]

OK so after going to three different LFS and seeing that no one had a refractomer to sell in shop, I decided to take a different approach to the marine ich.
I purchased an "Ick Attack" that is all organic, and safe for reef tanks as well as all inverts. A guy at one LFS said he has battled ick three times over the past five years with this method. Anyone ever used it before? And if so, have you had any luck?
thanks!

 

[saltn00b]

NOOOOO
you read up on everything to make that choice??
almost everyone on here has tried the "easy" route. it doesnt work. dont even put it in your tank, and it is not reef safe IME. order the refracto online.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by saltn00b
also there is no scientific evidence or reason why inverts could carry ick on their body. i believe that is a false rumor that has travelled around the internet stemming from the fact that the part of the parasite's life cycle that burrows in calcerous substances (tomont , i believe) can burrow into the exposed skeleton of a coral, and hence a coral addition could possibly , although unlikely, deliver the parasite into a system.
There most certainly is both evidence and reasons why ich is carried in on inverts, rock, and sand. The trophont spends several days attatched to the fish. When the trophont leaves the fish it is called a protomont. That is the stage where the parasite searches for something hard to attatch to so it can encyst itself becomming the tomont. That surface can be any number of things including rock, inverts, sand, etc. While the tomont is attatched to the surface it reproduces. It is quite easy to transfer ich on non fish.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
OK so after going to three different LFS and seeing that no one had a refractomer to sell in shop, I decided to take a different approach to the marine ich.
I purchased an "Ick Attack" that is all organic, and safe for reef tanks as well as all inverts. A guy at one LFS said he has battled ick three times over the past five years with this method. Anyone ever used it before? And if so, have you had any luck?
thanks!
Ich attack is one of the many meds that claim to work. Those whom have had "success" will preach that it works, but there are only three proven ways to eliminate ich from a system. They are hyposalinity, copper, and leaving the system fishless. Neither copper nor hyposalinity can be done with inverts and copper should only be used in a qt that will not house inverts ever. Pick up the refractometer or order it online.

 

[saltn00b]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
There most certainly is both evidence and reasons why ich is carried in on inverts, rock, and sand. The trophont spends several days attatched to the fish. When the trophont leaves the fish it is called a protomont. That is the stage where the parasite searches for something hard to attatch to so it can encyst itself becomming the tomont. That surface can be any number of things including rock, inverts, sand, etc. While the tomont is attatched to the surface it reproduces. It is quite easy to transfer ich on non fish.

sep what i was saying that there is no evidence i have seen that ick can transfer on the bodies of inverts such as shrimps or crabs. There is proof and plenty of it that in the burrowing stage , the protomont finds calcerous materials to burrow in. Calcerous materials obviously being Live Rock, Live Sand, coral skeletons, snail shells, etc. (and this is why i tell people to have a calcerous-material free QT tank) I am not convinced at all that they can burrow into invertebrate exoskeletons, but if you have some information on that i would like to see it.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
OK so after going to three different LFS and seeing that no one had a refractomer to sell in shop, I decided to take a different approach to the marine ich.
I purchased an "Ick Attack" that is all organic, and safe for reef tanks as well as all inverts. A guy at one LFS said he has battled ick three times over the past five years with this method. Anyone ever used it before? And if so, have you had any luck?
thanks!

I'm one of those "others" Sep is talking about. Ick Attack worked for me. However, my blue hippo was the only fish in my tank that exhibted ich symptoms. I followed the treatment, then fed all my fish their normal food soaked with Seachem Garlic Guard and Metronidazole. Been almost 3 months, and no sign of ich present in my tank. Could I still have ich in my tank? Possibly. But if I keep my fish happy and healthy, I'm not worried about it. You do what you feel is best for your tank. Don't let anyone talk you into one procedure over another. I will agree that hypo is the defacto method for treating ich.
However, if you proceed with that treatment, do a search on this board for the numerous threads on hyposalinity. You will see that it's not the easiest way to treat your fish. You have already discovered you need a refractometer to perform the treatment properly and accurately. Sepulatian has validated that in the numerous ich posts she has made. I personally wouldn't even attempt hypo without one. Since you can't find one locally, you'll have to order one online. That'll take at least 5 days to get to you. So while you're waiting for the refractometer, go ahead and try the Ich Attack. Better to start some treatment instead of none at all. If you don't see any signs of improvment with the Ich Attack, you're refractometer will have arrived, and you can proceed with the hypo treatment.

 

[saltn00b]

not necessarily. if you have a reef, and value your corals, i would not. ich attack melted an entire colony of Rhodactis mushrooms and Xenia when i tried it in a reef.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by saltn00b
sep what i was saying that there is no evidence i have seen that ick can transfer on the bodies of inverts such as shrimps or crabs. There is proof and plenty of it that in the burrowing stage , the protomont finds calcerous materials to burrow in. Calcerous materials obviously being Live Rock, Live Sand, coral skeletons, snail shells, etc. (and this is why i tell people to have a calcerous-material free QT tank) I am not convinced at all that they can burrow into invertebrate exoskeletons, but if you have some information on that i would like to see it.
This is from Reef Sanctuary. I cannot post the link:
12. The parasite can infect bony fishes, including eels, sharks, and rays, though many species of fish, like Mandarins, have a good resistance to MI, they can still be infected and can harbor or carry the parasite. Invertebrates, snails, crabs, corals, plants, etc. are not affected/infected by MI, but the MI can be in their water, shells, etc.
I always feel that it is better safe than sorry anyway. Why spend so much time effort and money on keeping our tanks beautiful, healthy, and disease free just to skip the step of quarantining specimens that we have not found enough research on. QT everything!

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by saltn00b
not necessarily. if you have a reef, and value your corals, i would not. ich attack melted an entire colony of Rhodactis mushrooms and Xenia when i tried it in a reef.

Sorry to hear that. I have mushrooms, leathers, star ployps, bubble coral, and even a ricordia. Didn't bother any of mine.

 

[saltn00b]

sep -
yea , that is anecdotal "internet" quality at best, so im not convinced yet. but i agree with Qting. so do you QT inverts yourself?
rudedog - i have leathers and GSP and ricordia that were not affected, although some corals definitely were not as "happy" looking until the stuff was cleaned out of the system.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by saltn00b
sep -
yea , that is anecdotal "internet" quality at best, so im not convinced yet. but i agree with Qting. so do you QT inverts yourself?
Absolutely. I keep two qt's running at all times. I see no reason to take such a needless risk with my tank.
How about Bob Fenner, do you trust him more?
Quarantine practices for corals and invertebrates are absolutely standard procedure at all public aquariums, and they should be in your fish room, as well. Why risk the health of your entire reef on one coral or invertebrate, when very simple procedures, requiring minimal, inexpensive equipment, can virtually assure that your system will remain disease free?
There is plenty of information available. Do a search.

 

[saltn00b]

im not arguing that inverts cannot introduce any pathogens or parasites into a tank, or even that ick cannot (remote chance) be in the water that an invert is delivered in (and as a standard procedure, one should always avoid transfering as little of this water as possible) but that the ick bug does not burrow on exoskeletons of non-sessile inverts.