Hyposalinity make ich worse, fish is now bloated

[griffindad]

My sons Angle fish also has Ick. We are currently doing hypo and the water is currently at 1.010 and there has been no improvement. I am concerned about going lower since the meter we have only goes to 1.010. Going lower we will be only guessing what the salinity is and I do not know how acurate these plastic meters are. The meter is reading 1.010 but it could be anywhere between 1.008 & 1.012. How low can you go without hurting the fish?

 

[jamiehag]

you can not do hypo with a plastic swing arm hydrometer it is not nearly accurate enough you need a refractomer. I had a coralife swing arm one and then bought a refractomer and found that the swing arm it was nearly .004 off!! thought my water was 1.025 really it was 1.021!! I will never trust them again. also hypo does not kill the ick on the fish it kills the free swiming stage of it that you can not see.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by jamiehag
you can not do hypo with a plastic swing arm hydrometer it is not nearly accurate enough you need a refractomer. I had a coralife swing arm one and then bought a refractomer and found that the swing arm it was nearly .004 off!! thought my water was 1.025 really it was 1.021!! I will never trust them again. also hypo does not kill the ick on the fish it kills the free swiming stage of it that you can not see.
ditto
ditto
ditto

 

[guineawhop]

Originally Posted by jamiehag
you can not do hypo with a plastic swing arm hydrometer it is not nearly accurate enough you need a refractomer. I had a coralife swing arm one and then bought a refractomer and found that the swing arm it was nearly .004 off!! thought my water was 1.025 really it was 1.021!! I will never trust them again. also hypo does not kill the ick on the fish it kills the free swiming stage of it that you can not see.
i feel kinda stupid for asking but what is a refractomer?

 

[scubadoo]

For the record...the salinity must be at 1.009 as Beth has posted in order for the parasites to be killed using hypo.
Also, for those suggesting Kick Ich, or any other magic potion will kill parasites, please list the ingredients that do the job. Contact the manufacturer and ask them what is in there potion #9 that they have proven through their R&D that sucessfully kills parasites. Copper is the ONLY additive that is scientifically proven to kill parasites...but hypo is a better way to go if your fish are not too badly infected.
If you would like to debate the issue regarding hypo...please bring some documetation to the table in the form of a cut and paste from a publication/website with a KNOWN expert in the hobby.
Perhaps I am wrong.....but it would take some documented proof for my cemented feet to move on this issue. I've been wrong before.

 

[scubadoo]

Just one piece of documetation from Steven Pro...with credits within to other known experts..
Treatment Option 4 - Hyposalinity:
Low salinity has been demonstrated to be an effective treatment against Cryptocaryon irritans (Noga, 2000). A salt level of 16 ppt or approximately 1.009-1.010 specific gravity at 78-80*F for 14 days was reported to kill the parasite. I have never experienced problems when placing fish into a hyposalinity treatment, but have routinely witnessed fish showing obvious signs of distress when brought back to normal salinity levels too quickly. For that reason, I try to limit the specific gravity increase 0.001-0.002 points per day.
One of the alleged benefits of this treatment is the resulting conservation of energy for the affected fish. Reef fish have to constantly drink saltwater and excrete the salt to maintain the proper osmotic balance. Lowering the salinity of the surrounding environment eases this energy demand on the sick fish, thereby allowing them to expend more energy towards fighting the infection (Kollman, 1998 and Bartelme, 2001)

 

[guineawhop]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
For the record...the salinity must be at 1.009 as Beth has posted in order for the parasites to be killed using hypo.
Also, for those suggesting Kick Ich, or any other magic potion will kill parasites, please list the ingredients that do the job. Contact the manufacturer and ask them what is in there potion #9 that they have proven through their R&D that sucessfully kills parasites. Copper is the ONLY additive that is scientifically proven to kill parasites...but hypo is a better way to go if your fish are not too badly infected.
If you would like to debate the issue regarding hypo...please bring some documetation to the table in the form of a cut and paste from a publication/website with a KNOWN expert in the hobby.
Perhaps I am wrong.....but it would take some documented proof for my cemented feet to move on this issue. I've been wrong before.
you can put the salinity all the way down to 1.009 but there is no need to drop it that low. the whole point of hypo salinity is to kill parasites which are invertebrates but very small. invertebrates start dieing at 1.019 or don't do very well. the lower the salinity the more stressed out the fish are.you only need to bring it down to 1.014 but i wouldn't suggest any lower than 1.012

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by guineawhop
you can put the salinity all the way down to 1.009 but there is no need to drop it that low. the whole point of hypo salinity is to kill parasites which are invertebrates but very small. invertebrates start dieing at 1.019 or don't do very well. the lower the salinity the more stressed out the fish are.you only need to bring it down to 1.014 but i wouldn't suggest any lower than 1.012
Sorry, but this is 100% wrong. The salinity needs to be lower than 1.010 to kill the parasites. . I guess old pros like Steven Pro ,Bob Fenner, Beth, etc, etc, etc, do not know what they are takling about.
I encourage those that wish to treat ich with hyposalinity to follow the advice of the pros.

 

[griffindad]

If the salinity needs to be at 1.009 and because there are some problems in measuring salinity acurately with some devices, how low can you go before it will hurt the fish. I have had my hydrometer calibrated and it seens to be +/- .001. Which means if I have to be at 1.009 my hydrometer may need to read 1.008, however, the water may actually be 1.007. Will this hurt the fish?

 

[guineawhop]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
Sorry, but this is 100% wrong. The salinity needs to be lower than 1.010 to kill the parasites. . I guess old pros like Steven Pro ,Bob Fenner, Beth, etc, etc, etc, do not know what they are takling about.
I encourage those that wish to treat ich with hyposalinity to follow the advice of the pros.
never said they were wrong i'm just saying it's unnecessary to bring the salinity that low. and if inverts dont' die until 1.010 then why do we have to keep the salinity at 1.022-25 when they are in the tanks?

 

[angelsrock]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
Sorry, but this is 100% wrong. The salinity needs to be lower than 1.010 to kill the parasites. . I guess old pros like Steven Pro ,Bob Fenner, Beth, etc, etc, etc, do not know what they are takling about.
I encourage those that wish to treat ich with hyposalinity to follow the advice of the pros.
actually that is not wrong at all. the salinity does not need to be lower than 1.010 to kill the parasites. and by pros do you mean pros like urself? :thinking:

 

[ninjaboy]

I am confused. I just set up my 150g. and on my starter fish, I found ich, So I set up a QT as you guys suggested. Now I would like to know how low and at what Temp to do the Hypo. I have a digital salinity tester by JBJ. I think that device is pretty acurate. Now just want to know the exact measurements and time frame for the method. It seems to me people have very different opionion in here. Who should I listen to.?
By the way, My old 55gallon tank had ich and tried kick ich and it went away but it did came back.

 

[jamiehag]

NOTE: This procedure can not be performed in an environment containing live rock, live sand or inverts [including crabs, corals, etc.] If you have a strictly Fish-Only setup, then the treatment can be done within the display, otherwise, you will need to treat infected fish in a quarantine/hospital tank.
Hyposalinity is a procedure involving lowering the salinity from normal tank levels to 14 ppt (1.009 Specific Gravity) over the course of 48 hours. This is done by doing a series of small water changes using fresh dechlorinated water. During the procedure, pH must be closely monitored as pH tends to drop as water become less saline. Fish are maintained in hyposaline conditions for three weeks after all symptoms are gone. Again, accurate measuring is essential, and the standard swing arm hydrometers are not going to work. A refractometer or large glass lab grade hydrometer calibrated to tank temperatures is needed. Once the fish have been asymptotic for three weeks, the salinity is then raised back to display tank levels over the course of a week. Fish can not tolerate rapid increases in salinity. Leave the fish in quarantine at display tank levels for another week.
Your display will now have been fishless for at least four weeks, sufficient time to allow the parasite’s life cycle to be interrupted. ****** is an obligate parasite that requires a fish host. No fish=No host=No parasite. Ich is a fish-only parasite, it will not affect inverts.
Continue to monitor pH daily during the process and be prepared with buffers to address any pH problems. Also keep the water clean through proper filtration.

 

[diane4]

My dogface puffer is a little bloated right now and I am in my first week of Hypo at 1.010. His appetite is not great and he a bit lethargic. I wish I new what to do for him, or what to adjust to make him feel more energetic and healthier. I do see what you mean, I see it in my purple Tang, she is feeling much better. But, I worry about my little baby puffer.
I will recheck all of his numbers tomorrow and post them. Thanks friends.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by angelsrock
actually that is not wrong at all. the salinity does not need to be lower than 1.010 to kill the parasites. and by pros do you mean pros like urself? :thinking:

No, pros like Bob Fenner author of many books. You have your opinion...but sailnity does need to be at the level I stated...JMO

 

[beth]

For hyposalinity to work precisely, you do need a refractometer that reads both specific gravity and salinity. The goal is to get 1.009 specific gravity and 14ppt salinity. Fortunately, in my refract the 1.009 = 14ppt. If your refact is off of that, try calibrating it. If it is still off, then balance the two readings, preferably not going below 1.009.

 

[beth]

What do you mean by bloated? What are you using to measure salinity? Is this fish in a QT?? Why not check to water today, and post them up?

 

[trigersvstangs]

If i had an infected powder brown tang and put him in QT, after 3 weeks or so I put him back in and then brought out another fish to treat. What is to say that he won't get infected again by the other fish that are supposedly effected as well but not showing symptoms?
Beth, you say that if one fish has ICH they all probably do. However I cannot physically QT all of them at the same time? I only have a 10 gallon QT, what should i do?

 

[torno]

To back up Beth, I have found in all my experiences with Ich, that the most effective treatment is hyposalinity. I have had the salinity at 1.009 and it has completely cured my boxfish, known to be very delicate, completely of ich. I'm currently doing another hyposalinity treatment in my FO display tank, and am planning on lowering it to 1.009 as well. Fish have the ability to adapt, and as long as you're not trying to put saltwater fish in a freshwater tank, they can normally handle this period. I would listen to Beth.