I Have an Impossible Phosphate Problem.

btldreef

Moderator
Your readings on water parameters are coming back fine because the algae is consuming it all. You are feeding the algae, and therefore making it grow more. 30 fish, which includes 9 tangs is still far too many fish.
Honestly, my fear is that if you were to get all this algae removed, with the bioload you still have, the tank might crash.
It sounds like diatoms AND dinoflagellates could be going on. Please post a picture(s) when you can.
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
If you utilize a fluidized bed filter, that would take care of the ammonia and nitrite buildup. As long as you maintain pH and alkalinity and keep nitrate below 30ppm for a reef, it shouldn't crash.
We are all just concerned. That's all.
It could very well be dinoflagellates, in which case more measures have to be taken.
 
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smallreef

Guest
Snake has some GREAT ideas... and you say you have the best of everything but is it sized for your system and your load? Could you give us an idea of what you are running?
Your sump setup, skimmer, filtration system (if you have a separate one), lighting...etc.
You can have a skimmer that is sized for your tank but a larger one could do more because of your load.. there is having good equipment, and there is having equipment that works for what you have. Not that that will take care of your problem..If you aren't getting rid of anymore fish,,, start a building and doing some DIY stuff that Snake submitted.. For myself Id get rid of atleast 5 more fish AND do the what he has suggested...
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by smallreef http:///t/389195/i-have-an-impossible-phosphate-problem/20#post_3438085
Snake has some GREAT ideas... and you say you have the best of everything but is it sized for your system and your load? Could you give us an idea of what you are running?
Your sump setup, skimmer, filtration system (if you have a separate one), lighting...etc.
You can have a skimmer that is sized for your tank but a larger one could do more because of your load.. there is having good equipment, and there is having equipment that works for what you have. Not that that will take care of your problem..If you aren't getting rid of anymore fish,,, start a building and doing some DIY stuff that Snake submitted.. For myself Id get rid of atleast 5 more fish AND do the what he has suggested...
I'm starting to like you... HAHAHA
 
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smallreef

Guest
Well ya know when ya have a good idea,,, im just gonna steal it, lol... It's easy for me to say someone else has good ideas when they know a bit more about them than I do.. other than Kalkwasser, vodka dosing and the algae scrubber (that I never did build) I know all of these things work great.. you just have to hone them in and figure out if they all work together..I havent ever set up a fluidized sand bed,, but my LFS helped someone do one and it turned out awesome (and had a HUGE refugium to fo pod growth)
 

morgan175

Member
Way to go you made traveler jealous. Next he will be asking if your moving to south carolina(
)
+1 with what snake said
Just because you have the best in this hobby doesn't mean u won't have a headache
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
all a fluidized bed filter does is take some of the stress off of the live rock to convert ammonia into nitrate. If it can be done efficiently through a FSBF, the live rock then has a chance to work on converting nitrate into nitrogen gas easier. (just a theory I'm working on) lol.
lol, Traveler - you're ok too... lol.
 

ivasawajin

Member
1) cant increase my circulation cuz of my display to sump overflow in small and i have 2 power heads making waves the makes the gas exchange good, do you mean i should get ANOTHER one that looks exactly forward ?
2) i have a Deltec Nitrate Reducer that words with vodka and i add 12ml of vodka mix ( 1 vodka and 3 water mix ) to the reactor , 6ml once at the morning and onee at night. and i have 3 skimmers.
3) yeah i use KALK+2 from brightwell around twice a week just like the instructions for months .if i use more my alk will go way up
4) working on that
5) Whats a fluidized sandbed filter ?
6) thats impossible for my room .
and i dont know what my sand is , its was really light and too white but after months its a litlle more sandy and yellowish and heavy . how can i tell what it is ? all i know it wasnt Live sand when i got it , but i think after a year with the live rock its live . its around 5inch deep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/389195/i-have-an-impossible-phosphate-problem#post_3438057
Ok, so, you have a huge algae problem caused by excessive amounts of nutrients. You want to keep all of your fish that you have. You say you have the best equipment there is, yet you still have a problem. Hmm... Ok, lets see what I can do...
Here are a few methods that are "out of the ordinary" for waste control and management - if you do some or all of these things, I'm sure you can put a huge dent in it.
1. Increase your water flow 2x more than what it is now. The fish will be ok. One powerhead should point directly across your water. Not up at it or from top down, but ACROSS your surface water. This will increase gas exchange greatly, and build up aerobic bacteria to break down waste. Don't point any powerheads directly at soft or LPS corals.
2. Get an aquipure filter, as Flower suggested, and vodka dose your tank. Adding vodka to your tank increases the bacterial populations that break down waste into nitrogen gas. I list it as unconventional because not a whole lot of people vodka dose. In fact, research vodka dosing your tank, aside from the aquapure filter. You will need an oversized skimmer for this step, and the next step:
3. Drip calcium hydroxide and wet skim. Calcium hydroxide is sold in the aquarium trade as "Kalkwasser" it's also called "lime water." You may be able to find it in pure form if you look for it at a chemical company. Dripping calcium hydroxide in your system will precipitate phosphates out of the water column before they have a chance to be consumed by algae. The problem is that if the precipitated phosphate is not removed through "wet skimming" it's reintroduced into the water column over time. So, your protein skimmer must wet skim. That's why you need an oversized skimmer.
4. Have someone build you a scrubber. I'm sure you can have someone build you an acrylic box, and you can add some plumbing and lights. It's not a whole lot of work to do it at all, and shouldn't cost very much to get done. A scrubber will remove dissolved organic and inorganic nitrate and phosphate in your water column. The algae that you have growing in your display tank will grow on the screen and not in the tank. I'm not saying that a scrubber will "cure" your problem with that many fish, but it would definitely help.
5. To speed up the process of breaking down ammonia from your fish and leftover food, consider adding a fluidized sandbed filter. The sand in the filter builds up bacteria which when water passes through the filter, it instantly breaks down ammonia into nitrite and into nitrate. So, ammonia in, nitrate out. The quicker your tank can deal with excessive amounts of ammonia, the better. The fish may also be more comfortable with the additional help of the fluidized sand bed filter breaking down the ammonia quicker. I usually don't recommend this method for anyone, but with that amount of fish - I think it's necessary.
6. If you have the space, add two remote really deep sand beds to your system. Remote means that they aren't located in your tank, but behind or beside it or in another room - and they are connected to the main system. A small 30g food grade plastic trash can does the trick. Put one "water in" line, and one "water out" drain at the top of the trash can just above the sand. Have the water flow gently over the sand. The best remote deep sand beds are at least 20+ inches deep/tall. You have to run remote really deep sand beds in pairs. Every two years you must either wash and clean the sand in the trash can, or completely replace the sand. Hydrogen sulfide is left behind as black, foul smelling substance. You never want to stir up a really deep sandbed while it's still connected to your display tank, because the hydrogen sulfide can be very poisonous to the fish. sand beds build up anaerobic bacteria which naturally break down nitrate and other waste directly into Nitrogen Gas and hydrogen sulfide (and other by-products) The gas leaves the container, and the hydrogen sulfide stays behind. It's also the reason that you take one of the trash cans off the tank every two years and clean it separately , to wash the hydrogen sulfide out of the sand and start fresh. This method is not a quick fix at all, but will have a tremendous positive effect over time.
Is your sand bed made of true calcium carbonate live/dry aragonite sand?
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by IvasawaJin http:///t/389195/i-have-an-impossible-phosphate-problem/20#post_3438355
This is how my tank looks in an ordinary day

Just my opinion....What makes you think that is caused by high phosphates? You need to increase your water flow to clear your rocks, either add powerheads, or redirect the ones you have. That's nothing but what I call ocean "dust" If were to take a turkey baster and blow it off the rocks, it would be gone until it resettled. So you need to get the stuff "airborn" and have your filter system suck it up before it can resettle.
 

ivasawajin

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/389195/i-have-an-impossible-phosphate-problem/20#post_3438357
Just my opinion....What makes you think that is caused by high phosphates? You need to increase your water flow to clear your rocks, either add powerheads, or redirect the ones you have. That's nothing but what I call ocean "dust" If were to take a turkey baster and blow it off the rocks, it would be gone until it resettled. So you need to get the stuff "airborn" and have your filter system suck it up before it can resettle.
sorry but you are wrong , i use a tooth brush and clean all the glass and LR and then i do a water change and remove the remaining dust/algae from the LR and replace my filter wool for the best results buy after 2-3 days they come back and like i said before i have 9 power heads in every direction in a 180cm display . these things come in places with very high flow and I DID MEASURE MY PO4 and its VERY LOW .
 

flower

Well-Known Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by IvasawaJin http:///t/389195/i-have-an-impossible-phosphate-problem/20#post_3438364
sorry but you are wrong , i use a tooth brush and clean all the glass and LR and then i do a water change and remove the remaining dust/algae from the LR and replace my filter wool for the best results buy after 2-3 days they come back and like i said before i have 9 power heads in every direction in a 180cm display . these things come in places with very high flow and I DID MEASURE MY PO4 and its VERY LOW .
...I googled grey fuzz on rocks and they all claim the exact same thing...not enough flow to blow off the rocks, they use a turkey baster. I don't think PO4 is the problem... I honestly think the problem is still just that you have too many fish. In my 90g I have 6 to 8 smaller size fish (my largest is a dwarf Angelfish). I think if you got your count down to 15 fish, and of that number only maybe 2 to 3 tangs....you will find your tank is much healthier.
The grey stuff is detritus, AKA fish poop.
In biology, detritus
is non-living particulate organic material (as opposed to dissolved organic material). It typically includes the bodies or fragments of dead organisms as well as fecal material. Detritus is typically colonized by communities of microorganisms which act to decompose (or remineralize) the material. In terrestrial ecosystems, it is encountered as leaf litter and other organic matter intermixed with soil, which is referred to as humus. Detritus of aquatic ecosystems is organic material suspended in water, which is referred to as marine snow.
 
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smallreef

Guest
I'm with flower on this..if you already have alllll that equipment and still a problem (and yes it looks like detritus) its just from to many fish and your system absolutely can't handle it...how mane gallong is your tank? As you have 9 powerheads are they adequetly sized? It just confounds me that you can be doing almost everything possible and if you already are doing it that the easiest solution is what you truly need to do to solve your problem, get rid of fish.. it's not fun and you really like them but don't you want your display to be easier to deal with?
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Keep the fish and the problem. Loose some fish and fix the problem. Doesn't sound like such bad choices, if you go with the first choice, stop complaining. If you go with the second - then you might be able to see your rocks again.
 

coralman05

Member
so, to get ride of "dust"
1. Fill up your syphon
2. Arm left hand with turkey baster
3. Syphon and turkey baster at the same time with filters on
4. Let it for 10 minutes
5. Chane filter median
Works great for my tank
 
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