I know just enough to hurt myself and some fish...

[Brando31]

Oh so many rookie mistakes:
75 gallon with skimmer, sump, refugium, flow, auto top off, and LED's at 76 degrees.

So I basically poisoned my invertebrates by dosing my display tank with copper after seeing a few spots on my fish. I didn't know about the copper invertebrate relationship until about two minutes after I dosed. I lost a few snails but managed to save the rest by setting up an emergency quarantine tank. I moved all the invertebrates to the quarantine tank and continued to dose my display tank with paragaurd (a copper based product). I still ended up losing a flame angel and a fox face. I caught the juvenile imperial angel (who was in really bad shape) and took him back to my brother in laws pet store were he is recuperating nicely.

The two fish specialist employees at my brother in laws LFS argued intensely over wether the disease was ich or velvet or both and over what I should do next. They even thought he might have something that was specific to that breed if fish. So I decided to go to a different LFS for advice. In my display tank I still had a couple damsels, a clown and a yellow tang that looked okay, not great but okay. They had no physical signs other than flashing. The new LFS said to stop dosing my display tank with copper because it would be really hard to get it out of the rock and sand. They had me do a large water change and start feeding with garlic and dosing with Herbtana, a "natural" fish immunity enhancer. But it does NOT KILL ich. 10 days of that, and it didn't seem to do much if anything at all.

I did another 40% water change after the herntana 10 days dosing process and put my invertebrates back in the display tank and turned my skimmer back on. My PH, nitrate, nitrites, and ammonia numbers all look good. The fish and the invertebrates are still doing just okay. Nothing looks bad but nothing looks very good either. No signs of ich, but I have a feeling I'm gonna see it again when the parasite cycles. Fish are still twitching and flashing. Less than before, but its still happening.

1. I really don't know what to do next
2. I'm worried corals/invertebrates will never thrive since the tank was introduced to copper. Even with the water changes.
3. Even with a quarantine tank, it seems like there still is no full proof way to avoid ich
4. Considering breaking the whole thing down, curing the rock and sand and starting over
5. Maybe just a reef only or fish only tank would be easier for a rookie. I don't want to abandon the hobbie but I feel like I am literally flushing money down the toilet. The learning curve is bigger than I anticipated.

I'm not giving up, but I am bummed and highly discouraged.

 

[jay0705]

Wow ok iam at work so can't go into too much detail.
Copper if dosed correctly will kill your inverts. It may take time, you will never completely get it out of your dt.
Copper or hypo will most definitely kill ich. Best done however in a qt.
Rt now your best bet, it patients and time

 

[lmforbis]

Unfortunately the second store was right about the copper leaching out of your rock and sand. Not so right about the treatment.

Treatment for ich and velvet are both copper or chloroquine phosphate. This should always be done in a barebottom quarantine tank. There are two kinds of copper chelated copper, like copper safe, and ionic copper like cupramine. Cloraquin phosphate you'd need a prescription from a vet. You also need to be able to test that copper. For chelated copper you need the API test and for cupramine you need the Seachem test. For the treatment to be effective ALL fish need to be treated. Follow the directions on the package. I would bring the copper concentration up slower than the package recommends, 4-5 days instead of 2, once the copper is at the therapeutic level, confirmed by a test, you need to keep it there for what ever the package recommends, I think it is 30 days. You will need to add copper to your water change water and test it every time you do a water change. The tank needs to be kept empty of fish, inverts are ok, for 6 weeks for velvet and 76 days for ich.

There are a couple other treatments for ich, hyposalinity and tank transfer, but they won't work for velvet.

In your situation where you treated the tank with copper, the reboot might be your best option. Empty the tank and sterilize it with bleach then let it dry completely. This will get rid of all parasites. Start over with new sand and rock. Your fish can be in the QT while the rebooted tank cycles. When the tank is ready the fish should be ready too. When you re introduce them they will be clear of the parasites as will your tank. In the future QT all new fish to keep it there.

 

[beaslbob]

I thought the ich was clearing up and the fish recovering after you added the chaeto.

is that correct?

If so I would not treat with copper or anything else. There is always some ich in all tanks.

Imho what is important is the environment is such the fish's immune system rejects the ich.

FWIW I have heard that in addition to lowering ammonia plus co2 and providing oxygen, some macro algae actually increases and strengthens the fish's immune system. But than either would help the fish fight off ich.

my .02

ps had similar problem on my first 55g. After adding macro algae it was totally gone and a small yellow tang tripled in size in a year or so. So I guess that's a been there done that.

 

[lmforbis]

You can have an ich free tank you just have to put the time into making sure your fish are ich free. Best case scenario would include a QT for everything else, coral, inverts, etc., that goes in as well.

 

[Brando31]

The saga continues...

So yesterday after work I decided to go to the second LFS again for advice. To paint the picture, they have salt water fish and corals only. No animals or fresh water at all. The tanks are crystal clear and you could eat off the floor in this place. The merchandise is perfectly aligned on the shelves and is separated from the tanks and the tanks are in a dark room engulfed in a subtle blue glow. Not to mention, the guy who owns it, runs it, and its been around for probably 20 years or more. This is not the hipster kid that works *****. My point, by appearance alone and speaking with him, he really seems to know his stuff.

So he says in so many words, "before you break it all down and start over, understand you will always have ich, you just need to keep the fish healthy and unstressed so they aren't susceptible to it". He explained it to me like the common cold, if you get it you get it, there are ways to help prevent it but sometimes it just happens, and the more fish you add the greater the chances. Theres no cure, you just try and stay healthy enough to get through it. I'm the kind of person that goes to the gym and tries to eat well and almost never, like years and years never, gets sick. When I do its usually mild enough that I don't miss work. I know this isn't true for everyone who goes to the gym and eats well but this theory makes sense to me. He also notes this plan is not full proof and often doesn't work, but its worth a shot.

I tell him the only thing left is the yellow tang, a clown, and as of last night, one damsel. Plus the invertebrates. He sells me a $18.00 cleaner wrasse as a last stick effort to eat the parasites off this fish. He says at this point, putting my fish in the two week old hospital tank has about the same chance of killing them as the water they are in now.

This morning, no cleaner wrasse. He's just gone. I spent an hour this morning trying to find him in the tank and on my floor, under the couch, behind the TV, down the hall, the hall closet, etc. Nothing. He's just gone. The tank is covered with an egg crate and he would have had to be a ninja to shoot out through one of the holes. He could be in some hidden niche in the tank, but I can walk around the whole tank and there aren't really places I can't see.

Who knows...but the theory he will eat the parasite off the fish is out the window if he's not in the tank.

Train wreck....

 

[jay0705]

Lol ok then.
1st yes they will eat it. No they don't cure it.
2nd no its not always in your tank. It needs to introduced and then have a host. Your fish!.
3rd a clean clear tank means nothing. I fill my tank up and toss fish rt in it looks dam good. They will all die but maybe you buy them before that happens
Lastly your not screwed , you made a mistake and it happens. Relax, slow down and breathe. Every issue you have is completely fixable. The wrasse can fit thru egg crate tho lol. If you have a sump check that

 

[lmforbis]

He may have a clean shop but info isn't accurate. Sounds like he is trying to sell fish.

First off cleaner wrasses and shrimp won't eat the ich parasites as they are under the skin. The white spots are a reaction to the parasite not the actual parasite. I believe they are tough to keep just because we can't provide them the correct diet.

Secondly ich or other parasites aren't present in all tanks. If you don't introduce the ich it won't be there. That means strict QT protocols must be used to keep it out. It is worth the effort.

A 2 week old QT tank will work fine you just have to watch ammonia and be prepared to do water changes. You also need a SeaChem ammonia badge. The copper, depending on what you use will give false ammonia readings in most test kits.

Normally I wouldn't recommend a tank breakdown and reboot after an ich outbreak I'd recomend a fallow period. In your case, since you introduced copper into the system you can go fish only (probably no inverts) after a fallow period or reboot by cleaning the tank and get new rock and sand. This would be the faster option.

Like Jay said slow down relax and think through your options decide on a plan. All is not lost, we've all made these kinds of mistakes the key is to learn from them.

 

[Brando31]

Thanks to all who responded. For now I will wait and see how things play out with what is still alive. Continue my water changes and monitor the related water parameters. If they all die I will break it down and start over.

I won a gold fish from the fair once when I was a kid. He lasted over two years on the window seal. I'm not even sure we fed him regularly. I think he got new water when my mom noticed it was almost evaporated. Ahh, the good ole days.

 

[jay0705]

Ha ha. No sw gold fishes lol

 

[one-fish]

Brando31..forgive me if I sound critical but did you finish the book you bought, a lot of the info you needed was there. Just my .02 you have fallen like 90% of the beginners.... in to much of a rush to create their vision in their mind they forget the Golden Rule...Patience. Wish you Luck and please continue posting here and asking questions. If you do have to start over..no worries do think we all have done it., Live and Learn my friend.!!!!

 

[Shilpan]

Hey I just caught up on this thread. How's everything going mate?

Just adding my two cents, a lot of fish store owners say every tank has ick because I believe in some places they're right the majority of tanks have ick because of poor quarantine practices. However I would like to add that I've never seen a trace of ick in my life in my tank or any other diesease so far and that's because my fish are at least once or sometimes three times quarantined. My latest fish had the mandatory 30 day quarantine at NZ customs, I shop at a good fish shop who quarantines the fish themselves for 3-4 weeks and charges extra, and then I do a 4-6 week quarantine myself. And I hate it, I despise the waiting but I've learned from the wise members here that quarantine if you plan to stay in reef keeping saves a lot of money.

However I do agree with you I think no quarantine is fullproof and I'm sure one day I'll probably get some disease even with quarantine.

 

[Brando31]

One-Fish: Yup I finished the book, and I have followed it for the most part, except for a QT tank and patience and adding entirely too much to my tank in a short amount of time. Obviously some pretty important factors. Okay, so maybe I didn't follow it very well.

Another read now that I understand the consequences would probably be beneficial. Many of the chapters would just make more sense now that I've lived it. I mean, I didn't even know what half the terms in this hobby meant 4 months ago. I thought Detritus was a Stars Wars character.

So here are my thought as of today, and the actions I took last night. I moved all of my invertebrates to the 30 gallon QT tank. In one night they already look better, even with the water changes in the old tank, copper was still effecting them. The 75 gallon will be fish only and hopefully I can save my yellow tang, clown, and damsel by dosing copper. One thing I have learned in the last 4 months, is that I want a bigger tank. So while I'm practicing patience and maintenance with these two tanks...I'm gonna start considering setting up a 150. I don't think mama bear will let me go bigger than that. That way I can start from scratch, know what the end result should look like, and really do it right.

It was just too exciting to resist all the pretty colors. Now, a little of the new has worn off and I can settle into it a bit better.

 

[lmforbis]

We've all been there. I still fight the patience issue.

Make sure you have an appropriate test kit for the copper. The rocks will absorb and release the copper which is why you can't keep inverts now or in the future but that fact will also affect your ability to maintain a therapeutic dose. The correct concentration of copper for the duration of treatment is essential. It can go up and down because it is in the sand and rock. If it drops below therapeutic levels it won't work and if it goes too high it can kill your fish. Test frequently.

An alternative option which many have taken, apparently including your fish stir guys, is ich management. Where you just keep the fish as healthy as you can with quality foods and vitamin supplements like selcon and let nature take its course. If the fish do fine in the intervening time between now and when you upgrade you can QT them before introducing them to the new tank.

Good luck.

 

[jay0705]

One-Fish: Yup I finished the book, and I have followed it for the most part, except for a QT tank and patience and adding entirely too much to my tank in a short amount of time. Obviously some pretty important factors. Okay, so maybe I didn't follow it very well.

Another read now that I understand the consequences would probably be beneficial. Many of the chapters would just make more sense now that I've lived it. I mean, I didn't even know what half the terms in this hobby meant 4 months ago. I thought Detritus was a Stars Wars character.

So here are my thought as of today, and the actions I took last night. I moved all of my invertebrates to the 30 gallon QT tank. In one night they already look better, even with the water changes in the old tank, copper was still effecting them. The 75 gallon will be fish only and hopefully I can save my yellow tang, clown, and damsel by dosing copper. One thing I have learned in the last 4 months, is that I want a bigger tank. So while I'm practicing patience and maintenance with these two tanks...I'm gonna start considering setting up a 150. I don't think mama bear will let me go bigger than that. That way I can start from scratch, know what the end result should look like, and really do it right.

It was just too exciting to resist all the pretty colors. Now, a little of the new has worn off and I can settle into it a bit better.

As far as your upgrade, the 125,150, 180 are essentially the same dimensions except they can height and a smidge of width. The length is always 6ft. So momma bear shouldn't worry too much lol.
To touch on what imforbis said. Don't put any of your 75 rock,equipment, sand, ect in your new tank if you want coral or inverts. The copper will continue to leech out

 

[one-fish]

I thought Detritus was a Stars Wars character.....Lol..It's good to have a sense of humor in this hobby, can be a bit discouraging at times. And agree about the book I read it after I made some mistakes and lived thru them. Good move on the inverts to the 30g. You have a lot of help here...me still learning too only been going 9 months or so...Be Patient and you'll get there..

 

[Shilpan]

You sound like you've learnt a lot if it helps try plan out your complete fish stock now. I did that when I began, I only ended up with 70% of it now that I've stocked my tank but I found that so helpful.

 

[jay0705]

Good advice

 

[Brando31]

Yup, agreed. That was one of the things I just didn't know before. I went home for lunch. Too late for the clown. The damsel will surly be next, he's not looking good.

Side story: The yellow tang was a "gift" from my brother in laws LFS. He was in real bad shape from being picked on. Almost no tail, no dorsal fin and a blood shot eye. His back tail has completely grown back and his dorsal fin is about half way grown back. he kinda has a unicorn thing going. His eye is totally healed. He's the only one who has continued to never have spots or act weird. I've never seen him flash either. Hopefully he will make it since the tank is now getting copper. I have a feeling when I get home he will be the only survivor. Strange how the fish most likely to be susceptible to illness outlived them all.

Body count: two snails, flame angel, fox face, clown, two damsels, and most likely another damsel.

 

[lmforbis]

Seems like the yellow was the tough one. Survived all that and was healing. Maybe he's got a shot of coming through.