Ich!!!!

[crox]

I started my 75 gallon tank two months ago. I have appox 100lbs of live rocks and 50lbs of live sand. After I had the tank running for about 2 months my 3 damels I introduced last week several fishes. A saddleback butterfly, a coral beauty, a friedmani, a royal gramma 2 ocellaris and couple other fishes. Last night I saw my coral beauty covered with white spots (probably ich) and severla other fishes with few white dots. This is my first saltwater experience after I had freshwater tanks for approx 15 years. What is the best solution to save my tank?
Please HELP me.

 

[crox]

Please can somebody help me!!!
:help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:

 

[aquapro_1]

Buy a few cleaner shrimp. They eat ich!! Cleaners will set up a cleaning station & the fish will wait in lines to get their turn....AMAZING TO WATCH!!
It beats putting them in qt with copper coated meds. Inverts not allowed!! Instant death!! Water changes help the spread of ich while you get you shrimp.

 

[ezee]

Crox,
Welcome follow Brooklyn'er!
I am by no means an expert, just an avid reader, so I am going to pass on somethings I have read.
You may have added too many fish at once. Too many, too fast will stress them, making them vulnerable to ich. Kindof like stuffing 30 people in an apartment meant for four people and never letting them out! Immune system will drop and if one person is sick, everyone will get sick. If you have another tank try to separate/QT them.
You will, very likely, need to QT your fish, otherwise your fish may pass the parasite around to each other like a bad cold in an office. For more information look at the top of this forum for QT/hospital tank setup. This is a possibility even if they heal and shake off the ich themselves.
You can set up a QT pretty fast and with not that much cost. Get a long clean rubbermaid [$10], a power filter [$20] and a heater [$20], to start. You should also provide some hiding places with PVC pipes in the tank. Don't add any LR or Sand. You can use this everytime you add a new fish, just to make sure it is clean and healthy.
After this is done, I think, you should go the hyposalinity route. Considering the number of fish you have.
There is probably a lot more that I am forgetting but the experts will likely see this soon and respond as well.
Good luck!
E

 

[crox]

What if I don't have room for a QT or the time. Can I use some kind of medication or that will kill my LR/LS?
Also not all the fishes have ich. Are they healtier that others? I have a urchin, several shrimp (coral banded and peppermint) 2 emerald crabs, 2 queen concs, 20-25 dwarf hermit crabs and several snails. If I use a copper base medication will I kill all of these critters?
My water parameters before I introduced all the fishes were
salinity 1.025
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate i don't remember the value but it was low
water temperature 78

 

[fedukeford]

you could aded copper but it will kill off the LR/LS and u should add 1-2 fish every 2 weeks so thats WAYY TO MUCH!!

 

[aquapro_1]

AGAIN COPPER WILL KILL INVERTS!!!! Your best bet is to buy a cleaner shrimp. Scarlet cleaner. All the fish have been contaminated. That is why we qt first. Frequent water changes get rid of some parasites as they travel from one to another...fish..but any ich product will contain copper. Copper kills shrimps, crabs, coral, lr and oh yeah their INVERTS!!

 

[crox]

So i'll try with 2 cleaner shrimp and frequent water changes. Should I also raise the water temperature to 82-84?
:help: :help:

 

[aquapro_1]

Originally Posted by Crox
So i'll try with 2 cleaner shrimp and frequent water changes. Should I also raise the water temperature to 82-84?
:help: :help:

Actually the opposite. The colder the harder it is for the parasites to travel. Warmth makes everything worse...grows algae.. You can also dip your angel. May help comfort him. He is a human covered in poison ivy. Get clean ro/di water. No salt no tap! Place him in a net & dunk into the water for 1-2 minutes. This shocks the parasites & they will jump off him. Not all but some. Then place the fish in the tank & throw out the water.
USE YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT!! If the angel looks too weak to be subjected to this treatment..you'll lose him either way. But the other fish could also be subject to this treatment. If they show no signs yet. This should slow them down. Temp lowered to 75. Definitely get started & order the scarlets to keep the fish from stressing & dying.

 

[scubadoo]

Yes, you should raise the temperature as this will help speed the cycle. An elevated temp approaching the low 80's with PLENTY water movement. There are only two proven methods to rid parasities with hyposalintiy being the best option. ....... ..the other bing copper.
You can also try other methods. The ich wil appear to improve then come back stronger. once all fish see to improve you can try several 50% water changes and some CAREFUl vacuuming of the substrate. This is based on timing as you are trying to remove the swimmers and unattached parasites from the system......not a high rate of success.
Another option is to remove all inverts and treat the entire system with hyposalinity. Fresh water dips will do little if you place the fish back in the diseased system.
You can also porovde some garlic soaked food and food soaked in vitamins.
As earlier reommended, you added too many fish . A good rule to follow is 2-4 weeks between addtions if small...and 4-6 weeks between addtions if medium to large. This allows your boi-flltration to expand with the incresed bio-load. Angels require mature systems of a least 6 months.
Several factors can lead to an outbreak of ich if it is present in your system.
overcrowding
Poor water quality
stess (many contributors)
Poor diet
Constant Temp fluctuation of greater than 2 degrees
One or any combination can lead to an outbreak.
This hobby does demand time.

 

[jerthunter]

As was already mentioned quarintineing your fish would be your best option. But you said you do not have room to setup a QT so I offer another option. You decide if it is something you can do. It does not sound like you have any invertabrates perhaps you could get a rubbermaid container large enough to hold all your LR, a small heater and a power head to keep circulation in the rubber maid. Fill the rubber maid with the majority of your rock and wish water from your tank. Then you can lower the salinty in your display tank for the three weeks for hyposalinity. Your live sand won't be live anymore however once you put the rock back in it will slowly become live again.
Maybe this will be something you can do, maybe not. Personally I believe it would be in your best interest to find some way to perform hyposalinity on ALL your fish so you do not have to deal with this again down the road.
The rubbermaid container, heater and powerhead are nice extra things to have for the future too. You can premix your water in them or maybe set up a sump with them in the future..

 

[crox]

So it looks like that everybody agrees that the best cure is with hyposalinity and I should avoid chemicals.
Thanks to everybody.

 

[tjake68]

im also from brooklyn anyway ive been through this you put to many fish at once 1 fish per month the best and safest way take out all invertabres excepet hermit crabs they are very strong lower your salinity to 10 doit very slow take 1 day raise temp to 80 you need 20 25 days donot rush even if fish look good ich has a life cycle of 20 days do water changes every week if you want dip your fish in fresh water for 1 min it will take the ich of thier body temporailly and provide relief for fish oncethis is complete aise salinity do it slow i keep mine at 19 all the time it cuts down on ich breakout keep temp at 76 78 this is agurantee to work safe and chemical free ive done it and have saved all my fish do not p in any more fish for awhile it is also very safe for your live rock i forgot to metion that once again no meds go natural it works

 

[drea]

.19??? are your inverts alive? if you have any?

 

[linzbotner]

I have a question that sort of goes along with this. The general consensus is that cleaner shrimp help to prevent ich. I had an outbreak. I am no longer going to go to this particular local fish store. Everything in my tank came from there and I have ich. I have a Royal Gramma, two Clarkii clowns, a Sebae anemone, some hermit crabs, snails, 3 flame scallops, and a blood/fire shrimp. My shrimp does nothing but hide. Why isn't it setting up a "cleaning station"? I have been using this stuff called ich attack. Turns my tank brown, it looks like Iodine. Am I harming my inverts? It says it's reef safe. Please help.

 

[scubadoo]

Unfortunately, you will not find too much in the way of mainstream support form advanced hobbyists and recognized authorities regarding the effectiveness of these so-called reef-safe products pertaining to ich.
The only proven treatments effective against this disease is hyposlainity and copper based additives. Both are deadly to inverts and copper can cause internal damage to fish short and long-term. So, hyposalinity is the better choice.
Yes, these so-called reef safe products have been known to damage corals/inverts and foul water. Some may claim they used this product or one similar and it helped with the disease. Most likely, the enviornmental condition(s) present which led to the outbreak of the disease improved which led to conclusions regarding what appeared to be an effective treatment. Therefore, the hobbyists draw a coorelation between what was added and the results. if disease is present there are many enviornmental condtions that can lead to an outbreak.
Based on the only known additive effective against ich being copper...ask yourself this question...how can one ingredient kill one invert ich nd leave all others alone? It DEFIES logic based on the proven methods that are effective against tis disease...copper which is dealy to inverts. Perhaps an addtive one day will be discovered.that will be effective against the parasites while being reef-safe......but to date...I am ware of no such discovery. To my knowledge, ALL of these so-called reef safe products provide ZERO proof of effectiveness. Certainly the maufacturer should provide to the hobbyist the proof and studies backing their claims.
Many will not even list the ingredients in the so-called miracle cure. IMO..these products waste valuable treatment time, waste money, incresse the risk of fish loss, and can damage inverts and water parameters.
Fianlly, it is not up to us as hobbyists to conduct the R & D for these companies post production. It is up the the companies to conduct their own R & D prior to production and provide the results to users. supporting THEIR claims.
When you have sick animals...you need to use proven effective methods...not miracle cures that provide no back-up....and are nothing more then colored water with some slime coat additive.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Linzbotner
I have a question that sort of goes along with this. The general consensus is that cleaner shrimp help to prevent ich. I had an outbreak. I am no longer going to go to this particular local fish store. Everything in my tank came from there and I have ich. I have a Royal Gramma, two Clarkii clowns, a Sebae anemone, some hermit crabs, snails, 3 flame scallops, and a blood/fire shrimp. My shrimp does nothing but hide. Why isn't it setting up a "cleaning station"? I have been using this stuff called ich attack. Turns my tank brown, it looks like Iodine. Am I harming my inverts? It says it's reef safe. Please help.
I forgot to mention...cleaner shrimp can help...but they should not be viewed as a cure for the disease. They do not prevent the disease...they may assist once the disease is presnt ......but not a cure.

 

[aquapro_1]

I will always swear by scarlet cleaner shrimp. They don't prevent, but do keep the fish "free" of them. Cleaners are constantly removing dead skin & parasites from fish. I have an agressive tank & they line up. I have been close to 3 years ich free. Every time I introduced a new fish, I had a new case. I never use my qt tank anymore. I just introduce them to the tank & the cleaners take care of the rest. I never buy chemicals anymore. People are under the impression that the MEAN fish will attack & eat them.

Not even close!! My puffer at 8' and my trigger at 7' line up. My puffer HATES other fish near him. You'll see a cloud of dust & he'll be on the other side of the tank. My trigger talks. The others will nip & "run like hell" to the other side of the tank.

If they die, I'll know who did it & what they did to prevoke him!! ***)
Kids will be kids!

I have 3 scarlets & they have proven their worth over & over. Anyone complains of cost...What is the time & effort & chemicals costing you?? I am in the

[hr]
industry and can make over $10k a month. My time is worth money. Easier for me to buy shrimp to work than for ME to do it myself.......
Lets do the math. 3 cleaners for $15 -. $45.00 and 3 yrs going strong. $15 a yr. Is that so expensive????

 

[linzbotner]

Thanks all for your replys. I have a shrimp, but it does nothing. I lost a clown today.

I am never going back to that store. Every person tells me something diferent, it's SO frustrating! I was told that I could train? my fire/blood shrimp. The fish line up, but the shrimp just swims away. I was going to get a new one. But they said they would fight. I was also wondering if I just decided to put my fish in a separate tank, how long till my tank is ich free? I don't mind just having inverts, are they going to be okay with ich in the tank till it's gone? Kinda dumb question I guess. Thanks so much. I get more info here in 10 minutes than I do in a 1/2 hour at the pet store.

 

[aquapro_1]

Cleaner shrimp...Is it a scarlet cleaner?? Many people CLAIM that a shrimp is a cleaner. Scarlets were born to clean. The first one I bought, went fish to fish cleaning. When I bought a couple more they claimed a corner & set up a cleaning station. The first did a great job of advertisement. His buddies sealed the deal.
Ich life cycle is a 7 day life cycle. But depends on the water params & how many of these tiny things you brought into the tank. Lower the tank temp to 75. The fish will tolerate it. Give it a week and a half & change the water weekly. 25%. The parasite thrive on 78 & warmer. They hate cold. Also lower you salinity. 1.019. The lower the pressure the better to rid your tank. The fish will be fine. Keep the lights off while you make the changes & then do about your daily bus.