If Heaven is so great, why do people wait to get there?

[aggiealum]

I had some religious zealot give me a dissertation on the merits of religion, why I should attend church, and most importantly, why I should believe in God. I countered his argument with "If Heaven is supposed to be the euphoric utopia where you want of nothing, never get sick, have a sense of relief and content that you never felt while alive, can reconnect with lost relatives, friends, and anything earns anyone else that previously lived, why do you wait to get there?" I got the normal responses of it being a sin if you killed yourself, God has a plan for you and He will take you when the time is right,.... But he really didn't give me a viable answer to support his argument that I should start believing again.
So why do you wait? If you go now, you'll never have to worry about getting sick again, stress over how you're going to pay your bills, wondering how you'll keep your job or find a job if you don't have one, emotional stress over issues with loved ones or friends, monetary issues, heartache when watching someone you love die, pick one.. There is the loss of watching your kids grow up, having those "family moments", getting those accolades for accomplishments you've made, being with your significant other, et. Al., but won't you still have those things after you die and go to Heaven? Oh wait, we really don't know 100% what Heaven is like, and if you die voluntarily to get there and it's not what you expected, it's too late to turn around and come back.
So if you had the opportunity to die, whether it be a devastating accident or some form of terminal illness, would you take the offer and just die?

 

[zoidberg01]

No because for me a heaven would be having people that care for me, to get the opportunity to give people life and get the chance to make others lifes better. What troubles you

 

[darthtang aw]

No. The reason why is far deeper. And since you clearly show a disdain to anything with a religion or faith basis, it isnt worth the time to explain since you most likely ridicule any response involving faith.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543148
No. The reason why is far deeper. And since you clearly show a disdain to anything with a religion or faith basis, it isnt worth the time to explain since you most likely ridicule any response involving faith.


Agreed, why cast the pearl before the swine and all that, but on the off chance someone else may actually be seeking an answer....

Heaven... like so much of scripture is a twisted misunderstanding. The Kingdom that God has promised for the righteous is not yet. When you die, you "sleep" until he wakes you, you do not die and "GO" to heaven. It may seem like an instant but much time will have passed. Like all little children, we want to stay awake so we won't miss out if anything fun comes along, who wants to go to sleep? 1 Corinthians 15:52

So we don't want heaven to wait, we are the ones waiting....dead or alive.

 

[2quills]

No. The reason why is far deeper. And since you clearly show a disdain to anything with a religion or faith basis, it isnt worth the time to explain since you most likely ridicule any response involving faith.
Oh come on now. We can't criticise Aggie for not starting threads and then knock him for starting one. Surely something is bothering the poor fellow if he came to us for enlightenment while he contemplates the mysteries of the universe.
What's bothering you Aggie? Share with the group. Confess your sins and you might be forgiven. Heaven is full of wonderous things and you don't want to miss out. All I'm asking for is to cut me roughly 10% of your annual income or so and I'll put in a good word for you to The Big Guy.
How's that sound? :evil:

 

[silverado61]

Just when you thought there no more ways of poking a sleeping bear.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543148
No. The reason why is far deeper. And since you clearly show a disdain to anything with a religion or faith basis, it isnt worth the time to explain since you most likely ridicule any response involving faith.
Why would I ridicule something you obviously have no viable answer to? Define "deeper". What is "deeper" than the answers I already provided?

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543152
Oh come on now. We can't criticise Aggie for not starting threads and then knock him for starting one. Surely something is bothering the poor fellow if he came to us for enlightenment while he contemplates the mysteries of the universe.
What's bothering you Aggie? Share with the group. Confess your sins and you might be forgiven. Heaven is full of wonderous things and you don't want to miss out. All I'm asking for is to cut me roughly 10% of your annual income or so and I'll put in a good word for you to The Big Guy.
How's that sound?

That's called "tithing". Something your preacher wants you to do in order to guarantee you a ride to that mystical salvation known as The Pearly Gates.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543151


Agreed, why cast the pearl before the swine and all that, but on the off chance someone else may actually be seeking an answer....

Heaven... like so much of scripture is a twisted misunderstanding. The Kingdom that God has promised for the righteous is not yet. When you die, you "sleep" until he wakes you, you do not die and "GO" to heaven. It may seem like an instant but much time will have passed. Like all little children, we want to stay awake so we won't miss out if anything fun comes along, who wants to go to sleep? 1 Corinthians 15:52

So we don't want heaven to wait, we are the ones waiting....dead or alive.
So based on this verse of Corinthians (me thinks you modified it a little), you're saying that God decides who he "awakens" after they're dead to go to Heaven? But I thought all were welcome, regardless of their past digressions? Everyone gets a pass, as long as you mutter "I do believe!" before taking that last breath.

I mentioned your last statement as a reason for "waiting", but again, if in the end you get to have that same "fun" when you finally do get to Heaven, why not just go now and get that fun started early? So are you saying that dying is equivalent to sleeping?

There's that new movie coming out this week about the boy who claimed he died, went to heaven, and came back. His vision of Heaven was "multiple colors that he had never seen before on Earth, and Jesus riding a Rainbow Pony" (not sure of the exact words. I saw him in an interview on some TV entertainment show last night with his Preacher father). He saw himself and his loved ones while lifted above his body in the hospital. So did he actually die and go to Heaven, or was it nothing more than his brain reacting to the trauma his body was experiencing, and his consciousness took over using memories ingrained into them by experiences and what he was told while he was in an awake state of consciousness?

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543158
So based on this verse of Corinthians (me thinks you modified it a little), you're saying that God decides who he "awakens" after they're dead to go to Heaven? But I thought all were welcome, regardless of their past digressions? Everyone gets a pass, as long as you mutter "I do believe!" before taking that last breath.

I mentioned your last statement as a reason for "waiting", but again, if in the end you get to have that same "fun" when you finally do get to Heaven, why not just go now and get that fun started early? So are you saying that dying is equivalent to sleeping?

There's that new movie coming out this week about the boy who claimed he died, went to heaven, and came back. His vision of Heaven was "multiple colors that he had never seen before on Earth, and Jesus riding a Rainbow Pony" (not sure of the exact words. I saw him in an interview on some TV entertainment show last night with his Preacher father). He saw himself and his loved ones while lifted above his body in the hospital. So did he actually die and go to Heaven, or was it nothing more than his brain reacting to the trauma his body was experiencing, and his consciousness took over using memories ingrained into them by experiences and what he was told while he was in an awake state of consciousness?

Hi,

The magical prayer does not exist in the books...it's a Christian thing that was developed to bring in the masses. No not all who declare they believe get a "free pass". Paul wrote that if he didn't bring his body under the control he too would be a castaway. Cor 9:27 The devils believe and tremble. James 2:19

The books use the EXAMPLE of sleeping, to explain that just as you fall asleep at night and suddenly it seems the alarm is going off to wake up, but al night has past...is the same way we will feel when raised from the dead. It will FEEL like it was as fast as the twinkling of an eye.

You are correct that according to the books, God decides who he will awaken and consider who is worthy of his Kingdom.

The ungodly - See the notes at Psalm 1:1. The wicked in general; the wicked of any kind or degree.
Shall not stand - Compare the notes at Psalm 1:1http://biblehub.com/psalms/1-1.htm. The idea is, that they will not be found among those who are acquitted by the Judge, and approved by him. The idea seems to be derived from the act of standing up to be tried, or to receive a sentence.
In the judgment - The Aramaic Paraphrase renders this, "in the great day" - understanding it of the day of judgment. The Septuagint and Vulgate render it, "the wicked shall not rise - ἀναστήσονται anastēsontai - resurgent - in judgment." Most of the Jewish interpreters, following the Aramaic Paraphrase, understand this as referring to the last judgment.

Another quote to express the same thought line, from Yeshua (Jesus) himself:

I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness. And if anyone hears My sayings, and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. (John 12:44-47)


The unrighteous has no place in the judgment.... The evil ones and followers of the false prophet are reserved for fire that burns for ever and ever Rev 13:1-18...that fire is what Christians THINK is hell. They also think everyone that doesn't "believe" will be sent there. The books don't support that belief.

The real reason for waiting is to be able to amass as much good deeds (AKA charity) as you can, and express your love for the Almighty by showing kindness and mercy for one another, to become the best person you can be. Once you die the race is over, and as you are at that point, is how you stand in the last day. LOL...No way will saying in the end of your life... "I believe" is going to clean the slate, like I said, the magical prayer is a sham on all levels. I used the word "fun" only as an example of how children think, who don't want to go to sleep for fear they may miss out on something.

One rabbi gave a good example of Christianity with this story:
A king was walking through a forest in his land one day, and kept seeing a bulls eye with an arrow dead center on many trees...he was so impressed with how accurate the archer must be who shot the arrows... Then he came upon the archer and asked if he was the one who shot the arrows into the trees he has been seeing, when the archer said yes, the king asked him to become the leader of the archers in his army. The archer began to laugh and explained to the king that he drew the bulls eyes AFTER he shot the arrow, so it only looked like he hit the mark perfectly every time.

I don't know about the little boy... I have never actually died, came close but not quite.

I am only talking about what I have read. The books are what my religion is based on, if the religion in question doesn't match the books, I disregard it, which is based on MY religion and how I see things. All of us have our own ways of understanding the same books. In the end of all debates stands one thing only "WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALATION, WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING" since we know what is at stake. Phil 2:12. We must all (those who declare the God of Israel as our God), give an account, so the way we believe, live and treat others is up to each of us as an individual...our behavior affects all others around us, so we must be mindful of that as well. My personal goal is to be found worthy of that kingdom and hear the words..."Well done, good and faithful one"...but that's me, some don't care, some believe differently... I have to do what I think is best for me, I can't run any one else's life, I'm already having a hard tome running my own. But when a question is asked, I try and answer to the best of my ability, in the hopes another will go seeking and find the greatest joy life has to offer.

 

[silverado61]

Oh come on now. We can't criticise Aggie for not starting threads and then knock him for starting one. Surely something is bothering the poor fellow if he came to us for enlightenment while he contemplates the mysteries of the universe.
What's bothering you Aggie? Share with the group. Confess your sins and you might be forgiven. Heaven is full of wonderous things and you don't want to miss out. All I'm asking for is to cut me roughly 10% of your annual income or so and I'll put in a good word for you to The Big Guy.
How's that sound? :evil: That's called "tithing".  Something your preacher wants you to do in order to guarantee you a ride to that mystical salvation known as The Pearly Gates.
I think that's what he was driving at.

 

[darthtang aw]

To keep it simple i will keep this short and to the point. The idea behind faith is to be a good person. In a nut shell. The act of suicide or choosing to have a tragic death affects many. Your children. You friends. Your family. By choosing this route one inflicts pain and mental anguish upon those that know them. Which is counter to teachings. Rewards are earned and not given freely or immediately.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543134
I had some religious zealot give me a dissertation on the merits of religion, why I should attend church, and most importantly, why I should believe in God. I countered his argument with "If Heaven is supposed to be the euphoric utopia where you want of nothing, never get sick, have a sense of relief and content that you never felt while alive, can reconnect with lost relatives, friends, and anything earns anyone else that previously lived, why do you wait to get there?" I got the normal responses of it being a sin if you killed yourself, God has a plan for you and He will take you when the time is right,.... But he really didn't give me a viable answer to support his argument that I should start believing again.
So why do you wait? If you go now, you'll never have to worry about getting sick again, stress over how you're going to pay your bills, wondering how you'll keep your job or find a job if you don't have one, emotional stress over issues with loved ones or friends, monetary issues, heartache when watching someone you love die, pick one.. There is the loss of watching your kids grow up, having those "family moments", getting those accolades for accomplishments you've made, being with your significant other, et. Al., but won't you still have those things after you die and go to Heaven? Oh wait, we really don't know 100% what Heaven is like, and if you die voluntarily to get there and it's not what you expected, it's too late to turn around and come back.
So if you had the opportunity to die, whether it be a devastating accident or some form of terminal illness, would you take the offer and just die?

When looking at the main tenets of Christianity (and most other religions really), it's almost so absurd that it's laughable. Yet billions upon billions of people have, still do, and will continue to believe everything they're told. I often find myself frustrated at the stacks of unanswerable questions of Christianity.

However, with that being said, what is the harm in modern American Christianity really?
For the most part (and yes I know this is a broad statement) Christianity teaches you to try and do the right thing for yourself and others. So even if the whole thing is a farce, what's the harm in trying to be a good human being and helping others? Let's say you die, and POOF! You disappear into nothingness. Was living a modern Christian life really that bad? I think whether we have religion in our lives or not, humans instinctively know the difference between good and bad, right and wrong. I don't personally think you need a mythical deity in the sky to do good, but if that's what helps some people get there, what's the harm?
p.s. - notice I say "modern Christianity", and not traditional. I know that there have been hundreds of millions of deaths associated with all religions, and once you get to that point, it becomes something completely different.

 

[beth]

Its not about being a good person. It is about faith in and devotion to God. And as for Christianity, its about faith that JC is the Lord who sacrificed his life to cover our sins and that belief in him is the only way to salvation. Being a good person is a by-product of that faith because that is what God wants you to be. Obey God, so you must be a good person. However, faith in God is No. 1. At least in Christianity.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543360
Its not about being a good person. It is about faith in and devotion to God. And as for Christianity, its about faith that JC is the Lord who sacrificed his life to cover our sins and that belief in him is the only way to salvation. Being a good person is a by-product of that faith because that is what God wants you to be. Obey God, so you must be a good person. However, faith in God is No. 1. At least in Christianity.

So do you think being a good person is a direct reflection of your religion? Or do you think people are inherently good, regardless of how or what they were brought up on?

 

[darthtang aw]

So do you think being a good person is a direct reflection of your religion?  Or do you think people are inherently good, regardless of how or what they were brought up on?
People are not inherently good.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543445
People are not inherently good.

See, I'm conflicted on this. Personally, I don't have much (if any at all) of a relationship with a Christian (or any other) God. Yet, I find myself wanting to do the right thing as often as I can. I certainly don't do it because I'm afraid if I don't I will spend eternity in Hell. Although, it could just be a societal thing based around my upbringing and what those around me did. I suppose you could say the reason a bad person is bad, is because of their upbringing too.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543447

See, I'm conflicted on this. Personally, I don't have much (if any at all) of a relationship with a Christian (or any other) God. Yet, I find myself wanting to do the right thing as often as I can. I certainly don't do it because I'm afraid if I don't I will spend eternity in Hell. Although, it could just be a societal thing based around my upbringing and what those around me did. I suppose you could say the reason a bad person is bad, is because of their upbringing too.

Hi,

I just can't agree wholeheartedly on that, there are too many really crazy evil people in the world that had wonderful homes growing up.

Now...LOL...Hell is a funny word to me when people use it, it just means the grave. That being said, people do not become Christians or serve God because they are afraid of "hell"...at least I never spoke to anyone who thought that way.

There are lots of "good' socially acceptable people who never had any thoughts of any god. For example, people give charity when they see another in need, perhaps because they know what it's like to be down and out. Folks show compassion on sick or crippled people, perhaps because in a way, they are grateful for their own health. I'm sure mom and dad taught them manners and how to behave towards others.

"GOOD" I think of as another of those words that just gets tossed around a lot. The followers of religion are PIOUS, and anytime we do something, make a decision, or form an opinion... we acknowledge our God. Such people are extremely cautious to not insult our God by giving him a bad name as a result of our behavior. Therefore it is often considered that a pious person should be more trustworthy, honest and caring. If a follower of God does something considered "wrong", believe me the first thing to happen is for their "testimony" to be besmirched.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543187
To keep it simple i will keep this short and to the point. The idea behind faith is to be a good person. In a nut shell. The act of suicide or choosing to have a tragic death affects many. Your children. You friends. Your family. By choosing this route one inflicts pain and mental anguish upon those that know them. Which is counter to teachings. Rewards are earned and not given freely or immediately.
Why is wanting to end your life prematurely make you a bad person? If you honestly believe that there is a hereafter, and getting there sooner than later makes YOU happy, why should it matter who else it affects? I suppose you could call that being selfish, but where does it say we are forced to pander and please those we care about, whether they are family members or just mere acquaintances? Too many people find grief in death. In one sentence you talk about when someone dies, they "are now in a better place". But in the next sentence, you grieve and feel pain simply because they are no longer "here" for you to have whatever relationship you want with them. So whose the one being selfish in that scenario?

There's also different definition of the term suicide. It's one thing when someone just walks off and shoots themselves in the head for whatever reasons they had, and it's another when it's someone who has a debilitating disease that simply wants to die because they no longer want to suffer. If that person takes his/her own life, then technically it's the same as suicide, but you can see the obvious differences between the two. The first one is considered a 'sin' simply because the individual didn't give his/her loved one's the chance to say goodbye, or come to terms for why they wanted to leave this world. The second one? Is it still considered a 'sin', or simply a level of compassion for understanding why the individual wants to end their life sooner than the inevitable?

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397510/if-heaven-is-so-great-why-do-people-wait-to-get-there#post_3543546
Why is wanting to end your life prematurely make you a bad person? If you honestly believe that there is a hereafter, and getting there sooner than later makes YOU happy, why should it matter who else it affects? I suppose you could call that being selfish, but where does it say we are forced to pander and please those we care about, whether they are family members or just mere acquaintances? Too many people find grief in death. In one sentence you talk about when someone dies, they "are now in a better place". But in the next sentence, you grieve and feel pain simply because they are no longer "here" for you to have whatever relationship you want with them. So whose the one being selfish in that scenario?

There's also different definition of the term suicide. It's one thing when someone just walks off and shoots themselves in the head for whatever reasons they had, and it's another when it's someone who has a debilitating disease that simply wants to die because they no longer want to suffer. If that person takes his/her own life, then technically it's the same as suicide, but you can see the obvious differences between the two. The first one is considered a 'sin' simply because the individual didn't give his/her loved one's the chance to say goodbye, or come to terms for why they wanted to leave this world. The second one? Is it still considered a 'sin', or simply a level of compassion for understanding why the individual wants to end their life sooner than the inevitable?

Aggie, Christians make all kinds of stuff up to call "sin"...drinking, smoking, cursing for example, simply are not called sin in the Holy books. To be honest suicide isn't either... lots of warriors mentioned in the writings who were mortally injured, would request death. However while it isn't called SIN in the books, such things are not good for you, and are considered by the religious folks to not be something to indulge in.

The concept they cling to is "Thou shalt not kill" however according to "modern day" Christians, Jesus took away the commandments, and they are no longer in force. LOL...Tithing is also a commandment from the law, they want to keep that one too. To those who are devout Christians on the site: Sorry, I couldn't resist, it's just too silly for me not to comment on it. I personally think the commandments are all in full force.

The point is this, if it's a sin to kill, even though it isn't the unforgivable sin, then it's a dangerous sin to kill yourself since you won't live to repent of the sin. Those who believe that, would be horrified to think their loved one is going to burn in hell for ever and ever....that's sure something to hold off for as long as you can.

In the end...There is an "hereafter" but it isn't guaranteed that a person has "done enough, understood enough, or experienced enough" to merit that kingdom, so cutting yourself short isn't a wise decision.

Keep in mind the suicidal person is not THINKING right, they are suffering depression, and many times the fear of such a sin is the only thing that may keep that person alive long enough to seek the help they need. There is help out there, and suicide is a very permanent solution to a very temporary feeling. With that wisdom comes the understanding that whatever it takes to deter a depressed person from doing the unthinkable, is a good thing.

As for endless suffering, my personal opinion is that if a loved one asks for death, the person who does the deed shouldn't be charged with murder....but it's a very slippery slope, where do you draw the line? I like to keep the mindset that with modern medicine, a cure could be just around the corner...never give up.