intersting rant

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by acrylic51
You are "vague" when you say you think you've found the missing link with your tank? What were the issues you were having????
I did quote the statement that swlover made "I have been keeping FW for over 20 yrs..if you want to keep a tank balanced plant it!" She knew exactly what I meant

And I did just list my issues. I also mentioned that these problems manifested when I removed my Plants....
Acrylic, I have not argued with you, nor will I. I am not scientifically well equipped enough to say any theory is insane.
What I do know is my tank. I was thanking swlover for her opinion. Nothing less.

I got inspired and probably would have hugged if given half a chance!
I don't have any issues here. Just nitrates, bubbles and cyano.

 

[ophiura]

Note that this point was written over 12 years ago. What goes around, comes around in many hobbies. Many things are cyclical in terms of what people like or not, but what may or may not have been the top technology at that time is not necessarily the same now.

 

[1journeyman]

Poniegirl and SWlover, I don't think anyone is against using macros. They just haven't been proven to be able to accomplish EVERYTHING a tank needs.
I've seen a lot of filthy ponds and lakes covered in algae.

 

[poniegirl]

I did not mean to get this thread off task!
I am not under the impression that plants are a quick fix. I run a canister and a skimmer and 660 PH. 3" SB (depending on where the Tclown puts it). I won't depend on the plants, but I feel like I might be needing some. Though I do have to say that a common statement is to add chaeto to a fuge or what-have-you. Whether it is to reduce trates, or increase pods...the mind gets boggled. I don't want to argue the point..I want to try something and see if it makes a difference.
I have such a great feeling that it is SO much individual experience and set up. We try this, advise that...How can we afford to get so worked up about it?
I only thanked a fellow human, for pity sake. I will continue to do so..and sneak out and grab some plants (smiling, but I don't feel like posting a thingy).
No more caulerpa, though.

 

[swlover]

I find it really odd that ppl would take up an argument about using plants and their benefits. I never said it was a cure all and I do use plants along side of mechanical equiptment..and no one even replied to the point of my last post...that if you loose power for an extended period of time most systems would crash without the aid of some natural back up...seems you skated around that point. And i hate it when I missed quoted..Regardless if you rely on mechanical filtration or not, as long as it is effective and maintained properly and working is really now reason to sterotype people only using mechanical filtration as being a bad thing.....I never said or meant that...I use all types and believe in them..I just said ppl rely on them too much and when a disaster hits and your out of power they have no natural backup. I think you guys are reading way too much into my statements and then filling in what you want. I don't agree with every thing this person said, I believe in my own way of doing things. I use a skimmer, filters, powerheads in all my tanks. I'm just supporting using a more natural way along side of them, I'm from the 60's & 70's it's ingrained in me to do things different and to use what mother nature has provided..there is nothing wrong with that. I think in todays day and age ppl have lost that, not just in hobbies like this but in overall life. Poniegurl..heres a hug right back at ya, it's sure nice to meet you.

 

[bang guy]

Technically Marine plants don't filter the water very much. Marine algae is what's needed.
Arguments are good to see benefits and problems. Many types of algae are invasive and/or produce toxic substances. To properly use a tool such as algae it's best to know as much as you can about it, not just the benefits.

 

[swlover]

Exactly as I stated I'm looking into them...I'm not going to just go out and buy a bunch of plants until I know what works, and what dosen't. Also what regions these plants are found and if I can even get any of them...I always do research first on any plants I put in my FW tank..this might not be for every one and I'm not pushing it on anyone, but it has worked for me. If I have success I would share that in hopes, like Poniegurl, I can help someone or open up a whole new way of doing things for ppl like me that can't afford the newest and expensive devices out there. I live on a modest salary, that being said, I'm going to look at alternative ways of keeping SW without the big prices and newest gadgets, when if we look hard enough and do research it can work and not only work but thrive. I'm currantly looking into taking some classes on marine biology and the like, something I always wanted to do. Besides that..I want to know what roles every living thing in the aquaria play and how they benefit eachother or not, somethings I know some are mysteries to me.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
Technically Marine plants don't filter the water very much. Marine algae is what's needed.
I've got Chaeto too. As I understand it macro algaes filter water better because of their rapid growth. I'm trying a little experiment to see how well the grasses grow, what if any benefits my corals show, etc. Long term goal will be to set up a sea grass bed environment in a different tank.
Sw, I didn't comment on your plants saving your tank thing becasue I didn't fully understand. Did you have your refugium lit during the black out? If so, I see how it could help. If not, then all the plants were doing was sucking oxygen out of your tank.
I wasn't trying to lecture anyone... especially not anyone on this thread. There have been posts in the past where people claimed plants were a cure all. I just wanted to make sure Poniegirl didn't get that impression. From her recent posts it's clear she did not.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by PonieGirl
3" SB (depending on where the Tclown puts it).
Ponie, that may be part of your problem. Calfo and Fenner in Reef Invertebrates discuss the difficulties of keeping a medium depth sand bed. The recommend a sand bed les than 2" or greater than 4".

 

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Ponie, that may be part of your problem. Calfo and Fenner in Reef Invertebrates discuss the difficulties of keeping a medium depth sand bed. The recommend a sand bed les than 2" or greater than 4".
That makes sense. Either a shallow enough SB so growth under/in it is not a problem or deep enough that it can sustain?
I would be very willing to remove some sand, however I have someone, a Red Cigar Wrasse, who sleeps buried in it. I'll have to think about this.
Thanks for the info.

 

[1journeyman]

Basically shallow allows for critters to clean all of it.
Deep allows for anearobic bacteria.
Medium it can become a landfill...

 

[swlover]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I've got Chaeto too. As I understand it macro algaes filter water better because of their rapid growth. I'm trying a little experiment to see how well the grasses grow, what if any benefits my corals show, etc. Long term goal will be to set up a sea grass bed environment in a different tank.
Sw, I didn't comment on your plants saving your tank thing becasue I didn't fully understand. Did you have your refugium lit during the black out? If so, I see how it could help. If not, then all the plants were doing was sucking oxygen out of your tank.
I wasn't trying to lecture anyone... especially not anyone on this thread. There have been posts in the past where people claimed plants were a cure all. I just wanted to make sure Poniegirl didn't get that impression. From her recent posts it's clear she did not.
I didn't have a refugium..they were dirrectly planted in the tank. Plants don't use oxegen they give it off, they use up waste, O2. I'm sure you learned that in bio class LOL! Back then I had the system near a huge window (yea i know drafts and extra light, heating my tank) But I think this is why they made it thru...the light from the big window sustained the plants, on a side note I didn't feed my fish at all for those 4 days, I did a water change on the end of 2nd day without power about 30%, (this was a 20 gallon FW tank) Thank goodness I had water already prepared in containers. At the end of the 4th day we got the ele. back on, I immediately did a 50% water change and they were fine...I had a community tank of chilids, some of the most brillantly colored from africa, still to this day I have never found them again. They came into a LFS as assorted african chilids..one of them was bright blue with black like a damsel and another was blue with red..just gorgous. The LFS lost almost all their fish from that storm..Tn was not prepared to handle anything like that, two foot of snow and it hit hard. I know FW is easier than SW but if this happens again I would atleast like to have some chance of keeping them alive. Planting directly into the tank is the only way this could work..the light would be the hardest thing, though. I'm wondering if anyone has had to deal with power outage for an extended period and how they handled it.
Yes I understand your points and believe me I wouldn't come down on anyone for their beliefs and for trying new things, and some ppl can get desperate for an answer of why things aren't doing well..hey they care about their pets, and I have seen first hand how ppl will run out spend a ton of money on a particular thing in hopes that it will solve all their problems only to be discouraged when it dosen't live up to it's claims.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by swlover
Plants don't use oxegen they give it off,
Plants and algae only give off O2 during photosynthesis. At night they consume O2 and give off CO2. This is one of the problems with a display tank with lots of algae and/or plants. The excess CO2 at night causes a large drop in PH in our closed systems.
A good skimmer can easily remove this excess CO2. Picking a single day and charting the PH throughout the day will tell you if your tank is able to bleed off the excess CO2 at night.
Dripping limewater at night can also remove the extra CO2.

 

[swlover]

Sorry forgot the C in CO2 when I posted. This is what actually happens..this is why plants play an important role in a balanced aquarium..they can and do absorb iron also, so it's good for inverts.
Successful plant growth requires a balance of light, nutrients, trace elements, and carbon dioxide (CO2)caused by fish resperation. The light should be provided in a spectrum the plants can absorb, must be of great enough intensity to keep the plant alive, and should be consistently on 10-14 hours a day. Most nutrients are supplied by fish waste.
The level of dissolved CO2 and oxygen are actually independent of each other; high levels of both can exist at the same time. Furthermore, if you have a set of healthy plants, they will be saturating the water with oxygen on their own. The problem is that many of the techniques used to increase oxygen content (airstones, trickle filters, keeping the water moving at the surface) also cause CO2 to diffuse out of the aquarium; i.e., if you turn off your airstone in order to keep the CO2 in, you might also reduce your oxygen content. The best solution is to keep the water moving at the surface of the tank, giving you high levels of both CO2 and oxygen.
Fish food usually provides enough of the three macronutrients, nitrogen, phosphate, and potassium

 

[acrylic51]

You should try to avoid putting the plants in the main diplay the fish will possibly eat and again dump it right back into the water which would be pointless....

 

[swlover]

My fish don't eat plants..strickly flake foods and occational live foods..the only fish I have come accross in all the yrs I've had them that even eat plants are algea eaters, Oscars and a plecostomus..and not enough to worry about..Sw fish I will have to do some research on but I'm pretty sure the fish I have are not going to eat any plants.

 

[swlover]

Originally Posted by PonieGirl
That makes sense. Either a shallow enough SB so growth under/in it is not a problem or deep enough that it can sustain?
I would be very willing to remove some sand, however I have someone, a Red Cigar Wrasse, who sleeps buried in it. I'll have to think about this.
Thanks for the info.
Don't take out add more in small amounts over a period. Better to add than take out..less mess and your fish will thank you!

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by swlover
I didn't have a refugium..they were dirrectly planted in the tank. Plants don't use oxegen they give it off, they use up waste, O2. I'm sure you learned that in bio class LOL!...
Bang explained this, but let me take another shot at it...
I did learn a lot in Bio class, so much I majored in it.
Your plants didn't save your tank. Not without light. The process you describe is when a plant is undergoing photosynthesis. As I'm sure your Bio class taught you, plants undergo photosynthesis when lit

At night, or in the dark, your plants were taking in oxygen and breathing out CO2 just like your fish. The tank you describe actually sounds like it was closer to disaster than you realize. With the increased production of CO2 by plants and algaes in your display tank the pH would have been decreasing considerably. That is why tanks with heavily planted refugiums run the lights counter to the display lights. As the algaes in the display go dark and quit producing O2 the refugium kicks in and maintains O2 production.
SWlover, again I'm all for plants, but now I'm really confused on what you are saying about them. Seems to me your recipe can lead to an oxygen poor tank that could crash it.

 

[swlover]

Look I'm not going to argue over this point any longer..it works thats all there is to it, you can either belive it or not. Like I said not pushing it on anyone, it has worked for me for the past 20 yrs of keeping fish...and if you read the first post about the tank being by the window you would have known they weren't in dark..matter of fact the snow is reflective and so more light was transmitted thru that window during the four days. I had test kits. I kept a close watch on my water, At no point did they raise to harmful levels, especially with the water changes. No feeding also..that had alot to do with keeping ammonia at bay, and the fact I olny had three fish, and cleanup crew, no over stocking. I have always believed that overfeeding and overstocking is why most systems fail, even before forums like these. books touched on the sudject but most people ignored this fact and still do. No the plants were not my savior entirely, it wasn't like I just left the tank alone, I played a role in it too..but I believe without them the fish wouldn't have made it past the second day. I was gonna make sure they lived I paid $29.99 a piece for those fish! They lived several yrs later.. then we made a big move and never recovered, we had alot of problems during the move, truck died in the middle of no where, we moved in summer so the heat was unbearable..they lived just one day after we got to the new house, it was too much on them. I know I will continue to have planted tanks, the one I currantly have is going on 6 yrs with the same inhabitants, if I can do a SW tank like that I will have accomplished something..it can't hurt to try.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by swlover
Look I'm not going to argue over this point any longer....
I understand; but you are posting something that can lead to known problems. Promoting "planting" a display without looking at the negative affects is promoting a bad recipe imho.
Sorry, I wasn't looking to argue with ya. My last post was an honest question. How do you avoid robbing the tank of O2 during dark periods. I did see your comments about the tank receving light during the day. Based on your comments about "I'm sure you learned that in Bio class" I just wanted to make sure you realized plants only give off O2 during photosynthesis. At night they respirate like the rest of the animal kingdom; O2 in, CO2 out. From your statements I don't see that and I don't see how planting a display can be healthy for a tank during dark periods (every night, power outages, etc.).
I'm willing to learn and I'm totally willing to be wrong. You've got to give me some theory to work with other than "it works for me" however if you are going to go against known issues (that can be tested for and proven like an increase in CO2, lowered pH, etc.).