intersting rant

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by swlover
Look I'm not going to argue over this point any longer..it works thats all there is to it, you can either belive it or not.
Best of luck swlover! Keep us informed about how it's going.
Just keep in mind that salt water and fresh water are not the same hobby. Very few similarities between them. We had another hobbiest that relied mostly on the algae in his tank for removing nutrients and filtration. His tank crashed about once a year. He also had 20 years keeping freshwater and ignored anyone that disagreed. Do what you think is right but don't completely ignore the experienced people on the board.

 

[swlover]

this really isn't a far fetched idea..I really don't see why anyone finds this so radical..I'm not the first person to use plants in a tank..FW or otherwise. They have complete sites dedicated, just like this one, that deal with planted tanks. I know that SW & FW are very different, I'm not a complete idiot..I do base what ppl say on their level of experience, you gotta give me some proof that you have done it yourself and it failed..not what you have read or other ppl say. There could have been a hundred things wrong with that guys tank, or maybe he didn't practice good husbandry, you will never really know what went wrong unless you try it yourself. Sometimes you have got to think positive and just do it..I'm not afraid, what is the worst thing that can happen I fail.. I have learned something and improve on it the next time and keep going until I find something that works and stick with it. If everyone was afraid to try new things or improve on old things... this would be called goldfishdotcom. :happyfish Ok I'm done, can we talk about something constructive and positive..

 

[swlover]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I understand; but you are posting something that can lead to known problems. Promoting "planting" a display without looking at the negative affects is promoting a bad recipe imho.
Sorry, I wasn't looking to argue with ya. My last post was an honest question. How do you avoid robbing the tank of O2 during dark periods. I did see your comments about the tank receving light during the day. Based on your comments about "I'm sure you learned that in Bio class" I just wanted to make sure you realized plants only give off O2 during photosynthesis. At night they respirate like the rest of the animal kingdom; O2 in, CO2 out. From your statements I don't see that and I don't see how planting a display can be healthy for a tank during dark periods (every night, power outages, etc.).
I'm willing to learn and I'm totally willing to be wrong. You've got to give me some theory to work with other than "it works for me" however if you are going to go against known issues (that can be tested for and proven like an increase in CO2, lowered pH, etc.).
I haven't been to school in 25 yrs LOL, I just know the basics..wasn't even thinking about night time..but I believe the ratio is very small during a regular night time, and running water for oxygen... filters,skimmers, airstones, powerheads. In the event of extended dark time and no moving water...it can be remedied with water changes..atleast thats what I can remember. I took a couple of classes in horitculture, and your basic bio class in high school and it's been along time..I know my tank is always at zero for ammonia, nitrites and ph is right on..nothing dies, water is cyrstal clear and I have very little algae, I add no chemicals, I use tap water and feed 1x a day..this is a 6 yr old tank, probably 6 or 7 large plants, HOB filter, and heater, 1 very mean large angel, 1 sm. angel, 1 molly, 2 striped catfish, bunch of fw snails and 1 rainbow eel. When I do start with sw I will start small maybe a 15 gallon..and just add LR,LS and sw plants and see what happens..no fish or inverts until I'm sure it will work. I'm going to use rock,sand and plants all found in the same area, I think that will be better than just mixing stuff up. I'll have very little invested, and no fish will be hurt or suffer, I will let evryone know the progress as I go. It will have to be sometime next year as I'm currantly cycling a 58 gallon and have plans on something different with that one...I wish you luck with your experiment.

 

[1journeyman]

Hmm.. I was thinking about this some more.
I haven't kept FW tanks in forever. What is the pH of a typical FW tank?
Plants can absorb a decent amount of oxygen. They can starve out the life of a stagnant pond, for instance.

 

[bang guy]

This is algae, not plants. They don't behave the same, chemistry is different, nutrient uptake is different, growth patterns are different. Discussing them like they are synonomous is a big mistake. There are very few saltwater plants and they are fairly difficult to maintain. The sooner you start taking about algae the better.

 

[1journeyman]

Good point..
When I say "plants" I've meant algaes and macro plants.... bad on my part.

 

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Hmm.. I was thinking about this some more.
I haven't kept FW tanks in forever. What is the pH of a typical FW tank?
Plants can absorb a decent amount of oxygen. They can starve out the life of a stagnant pond, for instance.
It's been a while, but I believe it is 7.8 to 8.0 for a freshwater tank? Brackish 8.0 to 8.2?
I am speaking of bonafide salwater plants, like mangrove, shaving brush. I have algae and plenty of it, I don't need any more.
Is it possible, then, that removal of my caulerpa upset a balance that, for whatever reason, seemed to work?
I don't have any fish that eat plants.
And if a DT and a fuge or sump are hooked together, what difference does it make if there are no plants in the DT?

 

[1journeyman]

There are two major types of algae; micro and macro. The ones like caulerpa are considered "macro" algaes. Marine plants like shaving brush and mangroves grow slowly and therefore do not pull as much nutrients out of the water as do macro algaes. That's why macros are commonly used.
The reason many aquarists use them in a refugium instead of the display are for what we've been discussing above. Marine aquariums need a pH of 8.2-8.4. At night, because of lack of photosynthesis in a display tank, CO2 tends to rise. When CO2 rises it lowers pH. Macros in a refugium can be run on a counter light cycle so that when the display tank is not lit the refugium is. This helps prevent the pH swing in your display.
Sure. Removing a large quantity of a macro algae could have removed a nitrate "sponge". Many people do feel like it can overrun a display, however. That's another reason why you put it in a refugium. You can prune it there.

 

[poniegirl]

Macros in a refugium can be run on a counter light cycle so that when the display tank is not lit the refugium is. This helps prevent the pH swing in your display.
QUOTE]
Never really thought about that option. I wish I had the room for one.
Thanks, Journeyman. More food for thought.

 

[1journeyman]

Np. Just passing along bits I've picked up from the boards and various books I've read.
Room can definitely be a hindrance, but you can very successfully set up a refugium above or beside the display tank if that is an option.

 

[swlover]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Hmm.. I was thinking about this some more.
I haven't kept FW tanks in forever. What is the pH of a typical FW tank?
Plants can absorb a decent amount of oxygen. They can starve out the life of a stagnant pond, for instance.
It depends on what types of fish you keep..some like a lower ph others like chiclids prefer a higher ph..or what they call blackwater.
Oxygen at night is replaced by airstones.
Brackishwater is half salt water, half fw..I have one of those too.
Ph can be maintained by certain rocks placed in the main tank. Texas Holey rock.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by swlover
It depends on what types of fish you keep..some like a lower ph others like chiclids prefer a higher ph..or what they call blackwater.
Oxygen at night is replaced by airstones.
Brackishwater is half salt water, half fw..I have one of those too.
Ph can be maintained by certain rocks placed in the main tank. Texas Holey rock.

Thanks for clearing that up about the pH.
Much of what you are posting seems to work in FW, but it won't in salt. For instance, a SW tank's pH should never dip low enough that it begins to erode Holey rock (that's one of the arguments against CC in fact. CC doesn't break down at a high enough pH to be a good buffer)
Airstones can cause injuries in fish, as well as salt creep. Etc.
Anyway, thanks for the info. It sounds to me like you've got FW down pretty well.

 

[swlover]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Thanks for clearing that up about the pH.
Much of what you are posting seems to work in FW, but it won't in salt. For instance, a SW tank's pH should never dip low enough that it begins to erode Holey rock (that's one of the arguments against CC in fact. CC doesn't break down at a high enough pH to be a good buffer)
Airstones can cause injuries in fish, as well as salt creep. Etc.
Anyway, thanks for the info. It sounds to me like you've got FW down pretty well.
Well you were talking FW PH and the lack of oxgen due to fw plants, you keep mentioning stagnant ponds covered in algae etc. ...seems like you have two conversations going at once...just let me know which one you are talking about... Also I would like to know what stagnant ponds you keep talking about..covered in algae, what do you mean? Covered as on top of water or what? I'm just curious, I don't think I've ever seen a pond "covered" in algae.

 

[acrylic51]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Thanks for clearing that up about the pH.
Much of what you are posting seems to work in FW, but it won't in salt. For instance, a SW tank's pH should never dip low enough that it begins to erode Holey rock (that's one of the arguments against CC in fact. CC doesn't break down at a high enough pH to be a good buffer)
Airstones can cause injuries in fish, as well as salt creep. Etc.
Anyway, thanks for the info. It sounds to me like you've got FW down pretty well.
SWlover I have to strongly agree again with 1Journeyman....all you've mentioned or quoted is stuff that works on FW......and BangGuy also tried to bring that fact to you as well....You might be very knowledgeable with FW, but your thinking on the PH and such by comparing what does and happens in FW won't work in SW.....If your so intent and believe what your saying just do it and be done....1Journeyman can't say it any nicer than he is......THEY ARE 2 DIFFERENT REALMS YOUR DEALING WITH.......

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by swlover
Well you were talking FW PH and the lack of oxgen due to fw plants, you keep mentioning stagnant ponds covered in algae etc. ...seems like you have two conversations going at once...just let me know which one you are talking about... Also I would like to know what stagnant ponds you keep talking about..covered in algae, what do you mean? Covered as on top of water or what? I'm just curious, I don't think I've ever seen a pond "covered" in algae.
Google images: +pond +algae.
I've seen ponds like this quite often. Usually near farms, ranches where they are being polluted with excess nutrients and/or fetilizer.
We're good. I'm really not trying to argue with ya; just wanted to make sure any readers of this thread understand that FW and SW tanks don't work the same way.

 

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Google images: +pond +algae.
I've seen ponds like this quite often. Usually near farms, ranches where they are being polluted with excess nutrients and/or fetilizer.
We're good. I'm really not trying to argue with ya; just wanted to make sure any readers of this thread understand that FW and SW tanks don't work the same way.
Often times ponds do not have sufficient water flow to avoid the kind of algaeal growth seen in those images. No one does water changes or thins the plants.
I think a few of the more "covered" images are victims of duck weed, which is impossible to erradicate, once it is introduced.
My point is, in a smaller pond that is kept and has been provided with waterflow, algae and plant growth is no different an issue than in an aquarium, whether it is FW or SW. If we left our tanks to themselves, they would also look like those images.
While FW and SW are different realms, the relationship and purpose of plantlife to the tank is the same, is it not? Granted, the PH (among other) requirements differ.

 

[bang guy]

There are similar beneficial purposes between plant live in FW and macro algae in SW. A couple major differences need to be considered though.
1 - Many type of Marine macro algae produce toxins. Caulerpins is a good example.
2 - Many type of Marine macro algae can grow several inches a day. This means that if it isn't trimmed often it can overrun a display tank in less than a week.
3 - It will kill corals that it grows over or into. This is a major concern.
Benefits:
1 - It will remove nutrients when harvested regularly.
2 - It will remove aluminum and a few other toxic metals.
3 - It will grow diversity as it protects bugs from being preyed upon.

 

[swlover]

Originally Posted by acrylic51
SWlover I have to strongly agree again with 1Journeyman....all you've mentioned or quoted is stuff that works on FW......and BangGuy also tried to bring that fact to you as well....You might be very knowledgeable with FW, but your thinking on the PH and such by comparing what does and happens in FW won't work in SW.....If your so intent and believe what your saying just do it and be done....1Journeyman can't say it any nicer than he is......THEY ARE 2 DIFFERENT REALMS YOUR DEALING WITH.......

NO KIDDING...first off they are talking two different conversations...I'm responding to the questions about FW, I'm not confusing the two ... (which he asked a question about) 1journeyman keeps stating what I say about ph, airstones etc. wont work in SW...I totally agree, never disagreed with any of that, find where I said use a airstone in SW.. do you ppl read or just assume......the topic was FW and ph and what a typical FW tanks ph is. I answered that specific question and then I get yea but Sw this and that..i never said in that post anything about SW, I was answering his question, thats all nothing else. For the last time...I know SW and FW are different, they have different plants, animals, equiptment and chemistry. I know plants work in a FW tank, the proof is in my tank..if you would like to see a picture just ask...you act like I'm making it up. I do not know that they will work in SW..but it's something I'd like to try. I do have mangroves in one tank..for one yr, no scum in cup so i took out the PS, they don't take over, nothing eats them, everything in there is alive and well... and isn't that the point? Then they get into macro algae in SW tanks and then he makes statements about stagnant ponds and lakes...Last time I looked ponds and lakes are fw...HE IS COMPARING THE TWO, not me, so get off me.
...to sit there and say that plants choke out ponds and lakes is rediculous, there are all kinds of life going on in there, maybe not the best fishing hole but there are many creatures that live in or around that lake or pond..some animals can't be found anywhere else. like poniegurl said, most of what you see on top of ponds is duckweed, not algae, and even if there is abundant algae you can bet there are all kinds of creatures, plants in there and that feed off of it. Most natural ponds and lakes have underground streams or rivers that feed them..there for running water..not stagnant..If the pond starts to die off you can be sure that man has altered it in some way..building, pollution (like your google) or rerouting water..runoff is not enough to maintain it's currant echo system, but some things will die off while others will survive..life happens dispite man's abillity to screw it up. Aslong as plant life exsists in a pond there will be life, and in abundance. I have personally seen ponds made (man made ponds)..and fail, why because A they have no plant life and B no fresh water sorce...it's just a big puddle..and that is stagnant, just because it's filthy looking or not pretty dosen't mean it's stagnant and make sure when you post you say these ponds are being polluted...that absolutely has bearing on life in a pond.
Proof #1 1journyman keeps refurring the two together: 11-02-2006, 04:24 AM
1journeyman
Fan of DSBs Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Denton, Tx
Posts: 2,658
Poniegirl and SWlover, I don't think anyone is against using macros. They just haven't been proven to be able to accomplish EVERYTHING a tank needs.
I've seen a lot of filthy ponds and lakes covered in algae.
Proof #2: #44 11-06-2006, 12:20 AM
1journeyman
Fan of DSBs Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Denton, Tx
Posts: 2,658
Hmm.. I was thinking about this some more.
I haven't kept FW tanks in forever. What is the pH of a typical FW tank?
Plants can absorb a decent amount of oxygen. They can starve out the life of a stagnant pond, for instance.
Thats statement makes no sence..the more plants grow the more deverse the population of animals get..most of your herbivores live here, then the carnivours... hello life cycle. You are talking like these are contained...like an aquarium, they are not and totally different. Ok I'm done, I hope I have cleared up any misconceptions you may have had about me or what I'm doing..and in the future please read all of the statements and the answeres to specific questions and not just assume i'm throwing sw and fw together. This all because I agreed with some of the things the author was saying.. really.

 

[bang guy]

Sorry if I got confused between all the posts.

 

[1journeyman]

Wait, wait wait... I did NOT start the mix of FW and SW tanks... you posted this before I ever joined in the discussion.
Originally Posted by swlover
I think he forgot to mention..no over feeding, water changes and low populations too. I use plants also, not just in SW but FW too..this does make a difference. I have been keeping FW for over 20 yrs..if you want to keep a tank balanced plant it! Yes many things can take over but if you keep them weeded out like any veggie garden, they produce great results..you can't beat mother nature. I firmly believe in natural over mechanical..and I refuse to pay high prices for things that may or may not work, and I hate adding chemicals, when the answer is a natural way. I can see where he states about the PS... Mangrove takes care of excess proteins, although I do have a skimmer in one tank...another I do not, I used to have a skimmer with the mangrove to see how well they actually work...and found less and less scum in the cup as time went on, so instead of having yet another mechanical device running..I removed it. I think it's all a balancing act, I have read of experts in the field do not even have filters of any kind..everything in the tank has a purpose, not just because it's cool or pretty..they all work together to form a natural habitat, which is something I would like to try one day.

After a few posts we had this:
Originally Posted by Poniegirl
OMG! You just rock! I have been in a battle with my tank and I think you may have found my missing link. Bless you!
To which I replied
Originally Posted by 1Journeyman
Plants can help, but they are not neccessary. If you are in a battle with your tank something else is at issue.
To which you replied
Originally Posted by swlover
Ok what makes you say they are not? If it wasn't for my well planted tank..I would have lost everything in the winter of 93 when the ele. went out for almost a week due to a huge snow storm, we had a wood stove and propane heaters, I would say they are neccessary..especially when things like that happen. I think the majority of ppl rely too much on mechanical devices to do everything..then when they are faced with something like power outage and have no natural back up..all they can do is sit and watch the tank die...thats a pretty expensive lesson. I'm currantly looking into SW plants that do specific things, and I'm deffinately going to put them in there, they say we are due for the worst storms ever this year..we live in a very rural place, who knows how long it will take for the power ppl to get us up and running, I just can't take the chance, not if I can do smething about it.
Let's argue about the definition of ponds later after we get this settled... But, to make it clear; You mixed the two tanks. Poniegirl said she was missing plants in her SW tank, I said they weren't neccessary, and you went into your winter of 93 story which NEVER stated that the tank in the story was FW.
That's where the conversation split... Ponie was talking about a SW tank, to which I said plants were good but not neccessary to which you said "Ok what makes you say they are not?"