Is Jesus God?

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3039500
I also have a faith of sorts. I simply think that any human description of God is far too limiting (of "god") and as such, rather than explore the true nature of Creator(s), we tend to bend them to our purposes.
So you're saying you don't like the modernized, westernized form of what we call God and American Christianity? If that's the case, then we are in agreement here. I too think that "God" is a way for us to explain the unexplained and to compartmentalize our beliefs so we can sleep at night. I think there's something further, something beyond our perception of "God" that honestly blows all theories out of the water.

 

[uneverno]

No worries about the quote - I cut things all the time 'cuz I know admins hate that, and server space is limited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Colossians Just one example - the books Paul was alleged to have written were all written a generation after the death Christ.
Using the bible as a source in searching for artifacts and ruins is absolutely valid. I thought I made that clear when I stated that the Old Testament is the history of the Jewish people. If I didn't, that was my mistake.
It's because it's true and we can't find a way to falsify it.
Can't argue that one. It's impossible to prove a negative. Doesn't mean I agree. There's simply no way to argue the point logically.
85% of the world believes in a higher power. Something must be said about that. You can't say that 85%, myself included, are all delusional.
First, does that 85% believe in the "Christian God?"
Second, nothing must be said about it at all. Because I'm in the minority however, doesn't make me wrong. Galileo and Copernicus were in the minority, no? (Not that I'm comparing myself to them, mind you.)
Third, I didn't call anyone delusional. You're right. I can't say that. I also didn't.

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3039506
So you're saying you don't like the modernized, westernized form of what we call God and American Christianity? If that's the case, then we are in agreement here. I too think that "God" is a way for us to explain the unexplained and to compartmentalize our beliefs so we can sleep at night. I think there's something further, something beyond our perception of "God" that honestly blows all theories out of the water.
Thank you. That's exactly what I'm saying.

 

[wattsupdoc]

I didn't read all the posts. I have heard them time and time again. I am no "Devils Advocate". Have you ever met an advocate of your Satan? Jesus was a man. He walked the Earth was flesh and blood and had siblings. The virgin birth is a farce. Uneverno has about the best grasp on the whole situation. Jesus and christianity is still around for the same reasons all religions are still around. It is inherently important for many of our feeble minds to need something to hold on to. Our minds are very superstitious. Your christianity is an evolved form of religion stemming from the Egyptian paganism. Evolved to fit as time progresses. The very holidays you observe in fact are holidays which were merged with pagan rituals observed during Constantine's rules...who BTW was a pagan converted to Christian for political purposes to rise to Emperor. Constantine made Christianity acceptable and stopped the persecution and MURDER of christians. The holiday t6hat many christians are today trying to boycott(halloween) is in fact a Christian holiday. The ghost and the ghouls were examples of the dead saints, worship for them. It is aligned with the pagan holiday of the fall harvest. Which is why we get treats by going around asking for it...
Many people need something bigger than them in order for them to continue to do right. Many people don't want to be responsible for themselves so they lay it on god. Many people are afraid to question what is written or what they are told. Why is it that fear should be used to anchor a person to this religion? A person once told me, "But what if your wrong". Fear.....Scare them into believing... Voodoo if you ask me.

The basis of christianity is that you must believe in Jesus. If you don't, you will be cast into Hell. If you do, you will reap the rewards.(you are not guaranteed to go to heaven....no matter what you have been told) In christianity itself, each denomination believes it's the only "right" denomination. Condemning each other. Now I know many people who are not Christians and are awesome people. Much better and walk a much straighter line than many "Christians" I know. But according to christianity, they will "burn in hell. For WHAT? In fact, I have had more christians stab me in the back and take advantage of me than I have "non- believers", It seems that many "believer" believe the "rest of the world is more corrupt than I am so it's OK for me to not pay this guy. I'll put a little extra in the plate instead".

Look I believe in something more powerful than I. I believe we have a soul, as do animals. I believe that when we leave this flesh and move to something else there will be christians, Muslims, buddhists, Jews, atheist, Pagans, Deists, whatever. I believe in the universe, that it is real. I believe that the earth is millions of years old. I don't believe in the Bible, it is nothing more than a history book. Whatever reality you learn to create for yourself here, will be your eternity there. Hell, maybe were all just caterpillars...
What this is we are going to? I have no idea really. I dont need to know what it is, my mind cant percieve it. It will be revealled to me soon enough though. Then we will all be as one.

 

[mantisman51]

Crystal blue persuasion...ooh ooh ooh ooooh. Oh sorry Wattsup, your post just reminded me of a song.

 

[pezenfuego]

Yes, Christianity is a religion based on fear. It is "safe" to believe in and love Jesus Christ. I find it hard to believe that a person who does nothing wrong in his/her life and is completely honest and nice would burn in hell and endure the most terrible torture until the end of time for simply not believing in a man that there is no solid proof ever even existed.
When I watched that video the guy was talking about how he asked a Christian about Dinosaurs and the guy said that God put them there to test our faith...
Well I asked a very religious man about that and his response was a bit more in depth and kind of interesting. Lizards grow and grow until they die. Well if you look in the bible, it says that animals used to live for centuries until God decided to cut down on their time. That would explain why these dinosaurs (giant lizards) existed. BUT, it has been scientifically proven that man and dinosaur never existed at the same time AND if man did once live for centuries, then dinosaurs would have as well and fossils of humans and dinosaurs would be found in the same layers of the Earth, right?
I don't care what others believe, so long as they don't forcefully attempt to make me believe it.

 

[darknes]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/3039778
Yes, Christianity is a religion based on fear. It is "safe" to believe in and love Jesus Christ. I find it hard to believe that a person who does nothing wrong in his/her life and is completely honest and nice would burn in hell and endure the most terrible torture until the end of time for simply not believing in a man that there is no solid proof ever even existed.
When I watched that video the guy was talking about how he asked a Christian about Dinosaurs and the guy said that God put them there to test our faith...
Well I asked a very religious man about that and his response was a bit more in depth and kind of interesting. Lizards grow and grow until they die. Well if you look in the bible, it says that animals used to live for centuries until God decided to cut down on their time. That would explain why these dinosaurs (giant lizards) existed. BUT, it has been scientifically proven that man and dinosaur never existed at the same time AND if man did once live for centuries, then dinosaurs would have as well and fossils of humans and dinosaurs would be found in the same layers of the Earth, right?
I don't care what others believe, so long as they don't forcefully attempt to make me believe it.
Not all christians believe the same thing. I'm Catholic and don't believe a good person goes to hell just because they dont believe in God. I also don't believe in creation and that the earth is only 7000 years old.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by Darknes
http:///forum/post/3039932
Not all christians believe the same thing. I'm Catholic and don't believe a good person goes to hell just because they dont believe in God. I also don't believe in creation and that the earth is only 7000 years old.
This may be true. However, if you dont believe that Jesus is "The truth, the light, and the WAY". You cannot be a Christian by definition. It is the spilling of Christs blood that, according to your Bible, affords the only path out of Hell. You cant believe both ways my friend.

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/3039778
Yes, Christianity is a religion based on fear.
I have to question why that's the case.
What is it we're being taught to fear, and why?
Why is it (fear) deemed a necessary part of the belief system?
Is it the potential wrath of a petty and jealous god, or the "natural" (according to most any religion, not just Christianity) supremacy of our leaders that we're being frightened into accepting?
It all smacks of a societal control mechanism, not the desires of a "loving creator," to me.
What I seriously cannot comprehend though, is, how are we, as a flawed creation, supposed to come to any sort of conclusion about anything, and be held accountable for it, in a mere 70 years or so? I.e. Pick right, doesn't matter what you did wrong - you get infinite bliss. Pick wrong, though, doesn't matter what you did right - you get eternal damnation. In addition, what if I pick the right god, but the wrong flavor?
Not only an unrealistic requirement (on god's part), but neither the reward nor the punishment fit the crime.
At that point, I must draw the conclusion that it was not we who were made in god's image, but "he" in ours.
"If God didn't exist it would be necessary to invent him."
Voltaire
I essentially agree w/ wattsupdoc. I believe there is a superior intelligence in the Universe. For me to attempt to describe it has to come with the caveat that I'm not capable. An attempted description is not an excersise in futility, but it can in no way be considered complete. Given 13.5 billion years of the Universe, 4.5 billion years of Earth's existence, 2.5 million years of human existence and a mere 10000 years of written history/accumulated knowledge (and all those dates can fairly be called into question as well) it's not close to enough time to have figured it out. "God" is still bigger than all that.
I don't care what others believe, so long as they don't forcefully attempt to make me believe it.
That I would never do, nor am I attempting to.
I have no desire to belittle anyone's belief structure either. (I've tried to be very careful not too but, just in case I have, I apologize.)
The subject was opened for debate, and I've presented my views on the matter. Nothing more.
I must also add that I appreciate the level of respect with which this debate has been conducted

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3040112
I have to question why that's the case.
What is it we're being taught to fear, and why?
Why is it (fear) deemed a necessary part of the belief system?
Is it the potential wrath of a petty and jealous god, or the "natural" (according to most any religion, not just Christianity) supremacy of our leaders that we're being frightened into accepting?
It all smacks of a societal control mechanism, not the desires of a "loving creator," to me.
What I seriously cannot comprehend though, is, how are we, as a flawed creation, supposed to come to any sort of conclusion about anything, and be held accountable for it, in a mere 70 years or so? I.e. Pick right, doesn't matter what you did wrong - you get infinite bliss. Pick wrong, though, doesn't matter what you did right - you get eternal damnation. In addition, what if I pick the right god, but the wrong flavor?
Not only an unrealistic requirement (on god's part), but neither the reward nor the punishment fit the crime.
At that point, I must draw the conclusion that it was not we who were made in god's image, but "he" in ours.
"If God didn't exist it would be necessary to invent him."
Voltaire
I essentially agree w/ wattsupdoc. I believe there is a superior intelligence in the Universe. For me to attempt to describe it has to come with the caveat that I'm not capable. An attempted description is not an excersise in futility, but it can in no way be considered complete. Given 13.5 billion years of the Universe, 4.5 billion years of Earth's existence, 2.5 million years of human existence and a mere 10000 years of written history/accumulated knowledge (and all those dates can fairly be called into question as well) it's not close to enough time to have figured it out. "God" is still bigger than all that.
That I would never do, nor am I attempting to.
I have no desire to belittle anyone's belief structure either. (I've tried to be very careful not too but, just in case I have, I apologize.)
The subject was opened for debate, and I've presented my views on the matter. Nothing more.
I must also add that I appreciate the level of respect with which this debate has been conducted
I like this post.
I am living in a school full of people who have been Christians their entire lives simply because that is the way they were raised and never really questioned it or thought any other way. Now, they are old enough to really look at their religious beliefs and ask questions and are learning about conflicting things like Darwin. Most are now in the stage of their lives where they are agnostic and confused. My thought in the religion based on fear thing is this: If I believe in God and he is not real, then I die and don't go to hell. If I don't believe in God and He is real, then I go to hell. By believing in him, I am safe no matter what the outcome of life.
You aren't forcing your beliefs on anybody, not really. That is the beauty of this thread, I chose to click on it. I would NEVER tell anybody that they are wrong in their beliefs. If someone believes that God is a giant pickle, I will honestly accept that, I won't tell them that they are wrong. There is a difference between saying, "God isn't real." and saying, "I don't believe God is real."
When most people think of atheists they think of bad people. People who are depressed and angry at the world. I don't know why. The nicest girl I know happens to be atheist.
Put this thread on any other forum and the outcome would be atrocious. SWF.com dominates.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Yes, lets keep the tone this way.

I never try to impose my belief on someone else. Nor attempt to discredit theirs. I believe that is an inherent flaw for many religions. After all if the belief has substance, it doesn't need to be force fed. An old friend of mine used to preach to me constantly. He would just go on and on. Then go shoot any dear any time he wanted. With or without a tag. His logic was "God put them here for me to use".

I kept my mouth shut, tried to bite my tongue. I respected his belief. Still he felt the "lord burdened his heart to get me back into church". I don't want to be responsible for shattering anyone's faith. I believe faith is a very powerful and necessary thing. We all need to have it in something.
As far as what the supreme being may be, or what there is after life. Non of us will ever know until it is revealed. I don't need to try to know, it's not whats important. However I would like to think that there are many things the bible is correct on. We are in his image, as he is also in ours. We are IMO all as one. At some time we become more as one. The father and the son are one, just as are we all. No further from each other than is anyone else. Right now we exist on the atomic or molecular level. What ever it is our souls are made up of is something we cant fathom. Thought? Energy? Something entirely unknown to us? Who knows. A friend of mines wife stated that she felt we are right now larvae....Not so far off and unreasonable if you think about it. I know we want to think we are more than just maggots or something. And we are. But that's a good analogy I suppose. We do IMO transform. Existence to a caterpillar would seem completely different to existence for a butterfly. Taste, scent smell sight, feel, all may have a completely different and at first unnatural experience for it. Definitely it's agenda in life would be different. There's no way a caterpillar could comprehend the metamorphosis that's going to take place. Nor could any other caterpillar explain it to them. We couldn't even explain it to them even if we could possibly adequately communicate with them.
I don't believe that because a buddhist worships buddha (I don't think they actually worship him, but follow his teachings BTW, I may be off on that.) That they are condemned to any kind of damnation. I do have an issue with a person like Jeffry Dahmer being able to make a last minute conversion and accepting a savior and being rewarded the same as what a person who has done good deeds with the best intent their entire life.

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/3039778
Yes, Christianity is a religion based on fear. It is "safe" to believe in and love Jesus Christ. I find it hard to believe that a person who does nothing wrong in his/her life and is completely honest and nice would burn in hell and endure the most terrible torture until the end of time for simply not believing in a man that there is no solid proof ever even existed.
When I watched that video the guy was talking about how he asked a Christian about Dinosaurs and the guy said that God put them there to test our faith...
Well I asked a very religious man about that and his response was a bit more in depth and kind of interesting. Lizards grow and grow until they die. Well if you look in the bible, it says that animals used to live for centuries until God decided to cut down on their time. That would explain why these dinosaurs (giant lizards) existed. BUT, it has been scientifically proven that man and dinosaur never existed at the same time AND if man did once live for centuries, then dinosaurs would have as well and fossils of humans and dinosaurs would be found in the same layers of the Earth, right?
I don't care what others believe, so long as they don't forcefully attempt to make me believe it.

MODERN Christianity is not based on fear. It is based on a pagan religion called Mithraism. The Emperor Constantine thought the sun god and Jesus must be the same guy. He presided over the council of Nisei and fathered modern Christianity based on the sun god Mithras. This pagan gods high holy day was "Sunday" he was born on December 25th, the winter solstice. His mother was Ishtar the goddess of fertility whose holy symbols were the rabbit and the egg.
Here is one story:
Mithras the sun god shined a prism on his mother’s symbol to honor her, the egg and created the Ishtar colored egg...the Babylonian version of the story of how Ishtar (Easter) eggs came into play. Her high holy day was the vernal equinox (Easter) her holiday was celebrated with all kinds of confections of cakes and sweets. Mithraism was originally known as Zoristorism. It was a Babylonian religion.
Ishtar is seen as a woman nursing her child in ancient pictures. She was called the mother of god, queen of heaven..A goddess also spoken of by Jeremiah the prophet, a title and depiction later given to Mary, Jesus mother by Constantine, and it still is used today.
Before Emperor Constantine ...Christianity was a Jewish based religion. They followed Judaism, and believed Messiah had come. That was the only difference between the two in the beginning.
You can find this information in any library, that's where I got it from.

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/3040226
My thought in the religion based on fear thing is this: If I believe in God and he is not real, then I die and don't go to hell. If I don't believe in God and He is real, then I go to hell. By believing in him, I am safe no matter what the outcome of life.
Believe me, I've been through this debate w/ myself. So far, the only conclusion I've come to is that I have difficulty w/ religions and their particular concepts of God. I don't have much of a problem with a creative force, or a superior intelligence as a concept in and of itself.
You aren't forcing your beliefs on anybody, not really. That is the beauty of this thread, I chose to click on it. I would NEVER tell anybody that they are wrong in their beliefs. If someone believes that God is a giant pickle, I will honestly accept that, I won't tell them that they are wrong. There is a difference between saying, "God isn't real." and saying, "I don't believe God is real."
Ok - fair statement. I have an affinity for the Flying Spaghetti Monster myself

I'm being facetious, but hopefully you get my point.
When most people think of atheists they think of bad people. People who are depressed and angry at the world. I don't know why. The nicest girl I know happens to be atheist.
Again, from my point of view, the argument (generically, not your statement in particular) relates to Diety and religion's description of it. There are those who would say that Athiests, or even Satanists for that matter, are incapable of morality. The follow up argument being that morality is absolute.
What's never stated in that particular argument, is that absolute truth is usually contained solely within the particular belief structure that the positor subscribes to (whether or not the denomination is fully understood by said positor.)
Not only can I not agree w/ the thesis, but I also happen to find that those who espouse it most shrilly are the likeliest to apply faulty logic to its demonstration.
Quite frankly, the only absolute truth I've encountered is: There is no absolute truth.

 

[t316]

What's up with the freakin' novels people..

This is exactly why I don't jump in on some threads, because you try to read thru and there's 15 half hour novels to read thru. So many good points here yet no interest in spending 2 hrs. catching up.

 

[uneverno]

Well,
I don't happen to believe that one of the most important questions relevant to human existence can be synopsized in a soundbite.
Microwaves are great for boiling water, but if you wanna make actual food (whether for thought or stomach), you gotta take the time to cook it.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Burritos are good in the microwave,,,, so is chili...

 

[uneverno]

 

[t316]

Happy Cookin' Martha

 

[uneverno]

lol - thank you.
And as I'm sure you didn't, I also mean no offence in suggesting you occaisionally read a non-fiction book.

 

[t316]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3040348
Microwaves are great for boiling water, but if you wanna make actual food (whether for thought or stomach), you gotta take the time to cook it.
And tampons are great for soaking things up, but I'd rather use a paper towel for most spills...

Care to debate human existance? I'm only suggesting that you respondants reply to the post at hand and not give us a new revised version on the King James Bible.