Issues with interrupting vodka system ? Comparison vodka / Biofuel / MB7 ?

[frenchy in ny]

Hello all and thanks in advance for your help,

I’ve been in the last couple of days doing my home work around the vodka system through Internet search and I’m considering starting it in my tank (Reef system, 90 gallons, 2 years old without major nitrate issue but never being lower than 5-10ppm range and being interested by the benefit reported on the coral growth).

However one question I have difficulty to get a clear answer / picture is the risk to the tank if one stops doing the vodka dosing. What I have in mind is if during 2-3 weeks (for example for vacation) I stop doing any vodka addition what could be the potential drawback for the tank?
Also associated question would be whether Brigthwell Aquatics Reef Biofuel or Microbacter 7 approach would have a chance to provide same benefits (lower nitrate & impact on coral and if either Biofuel or MB7 would be more recommended) and then similarly to above whether also with these additives the risk to stop dosing during 2-3 weeks would be higher, lower or similar ?

So in summary my main question is risk to stop dosing during couple of weeks with any vodka, Brightwell Biofuel or MB7 approaches and then comparison of these approaches linked to such risk as well as efficiently for nitrate reduction & coral growth / color enhancement

Any input based on your direct experience or what you understood from own Internet research will be highly appreciated

Thanks in advance

 

[nikesb]

Stopping vodka should be done gradually as certain bacteria depend upon the organic carbon. It could potentially cause a tank crash if you were to stop so suddenly. If you were to go on vacation, you could automate your dosing.
It is suggested that you dose MB7 prior to start vodka dosing. MB7 contains the bacterial colonies that will feed off the organic carbon source of vodka.
I have done carbon dosing (Vodka, sugar, vinegar or VSV) but stopped it slowly since my schedule became busy with the beginning of the semester

 

[frenchy in ny]

Thanks for starting ...
I thought myself about the automatic dosing system but 1. not clear how to do this for volume of couple of ml per day (except with a peristaltic pump but being pretty expensive) and 2. always doubts that the automatic system will not work properly and if would result in an overdose could be quite a disaster (as happen recently to my automatic food delivery system but was OK as I was at home the evening and able to siphon / water change extensively). Any experience with automatic vodka delivery system ?
Also any opinion if MB7 or Biofuel alone (which are sold as alternative to Vodka approach) would have also such risk of tank crash if stopped during couple of weeks ?

 

[nikesb]

the dosing pumps are absolutely the best way because you wont forget and you wont have to deal with dosing in too large of an amount. You can split up the dosage throughout the day.
with that being said, i dosed during the summer and did it by hand, only because i was home all day.
while i cannot comment on your auto feeder, i feel you cannot compare the two. the feeder systems are made with simple programming without checkpoints.
as for dosing pumps, I have tried out a couple because i get to review stuff for the hobby. you have a couple of options but i like all in one systems like the bubble magus BM-T01. expensive, but works well in my experience.
I would not say MB-7 is a complete alternative for vodka dosing, its only one part of the system, the bacteria. MB7 and bio fuel should THEORETICALLY be stopped once organic carbon is available since the system can sustain the bacterial colonies. research "MB7/Vodka Dosing Guide" and that may answer your question. you can ask sunnyx himself on reef2reef if you have further questions

 

[ibew41]

have you looked at biopellets?I might be starting this to keep my trates down

 

[florida joe]

Quote:
Stopping vodka should be done gradually as certain bacteria depend upon the organic carbon. It could potentially cause a tank crash if you were to stop so suddenly
with all due respect where did you get this information from

 

[nikesb]

from experience and from sonny (sunnyx) on other forums.
many people have done sudden stoppage as vodka can lead to quick nutrient difficiency which sudden stoppage is the best option.
when i did vodka dosing, i stopped for 3 weeks and for some reason i saw a small but quick jump in ammonia after the first week of stoppage. the only thing changed during that time was stopping the vodka. the ammonia was quickly converted within the next few days. caused alot of my sps to RTN. the second time around, i slowly went off of it by skipping days and increasing the times in between and didnt see any adverse effects.

 

[florida joe]

Quote:
i saw a small but quick jump in ammonia after the first week of stoppage.
I also have extensive experience with vodka dosing as well as a respected member of the boards Spanko, I hope he joins in. he may very well agree with you. Before I give you my opinion can you tell me why you believe your above quote is due to your stopping adding a carbon source to your tank

 

[nikesb]

everything was held constant other than the stoppage of the vodka/vinegar. salt remained the same, water changes done weekly with the still the same box of salt.
no new added fishes/corals, feeding remained the same. nothing died, not even a hermit. i was looking for something that could possibly be the cause, but the only thing changed was the vodka.
i think the idea behind it follows along with everything else in the hobby, slow changes instead of the rapid changes. I think my system had gotten to a point where it was almost dependent upon the vodka system

 

[florida joe]

Ok here is what I know. (Granted it is very little when it comes to this hobby) there are two things we try to avoid in our tanks. 1. Nitrates 2. Phosphates. In looking for a way to remove these two things experts came with ways up to reduce them through assimilation. Algae filters were one and a fairly new approach was to produce bacteria in the water column that would assimilate phosphate and nitrates. To start the rapid growth of these bacteria a source of carbon is introduced into the tank. One source of this carbon is ethanol which we can supply via the vodka. Now the short version is that this bacteria which is in our water assimilates the nitrates and phosphates with in its bio mass. We remove it with our protein skimmer. And in my case also with in my refuge. Now if we do not remove this bio mass and it dies you can in fact reintroduce nitrates and phosphates into our tank. But for this to happen you would have to turn off your protein skimmer and not do any water changes and have almost zero di nitrification preformed in any other way. But even it you did this you would not IMO see a rise in ammonia as a direct result to the bio mass die off.
BTW nice talking to you

 

[nikesb]

thats where i believe the rise in ammonia came from. didnt see anything else die and the bacteria is the only possible thing that couldve died. at the time, i was still running a CPR bak pak for my 50 total gallons, so it was pushing its limits too. i dont think thered be as much of a problem with a system that had a larger skimmer. If i were to do it again, i wouldnt be afraid to get off vodka since i now have a MUCH stronger skimmer. Just to be safe though, i would definately still do it slowly.

 

[florida joe]

I just don’t think that a rise in nitrates and phosphates would cause something to die and trigger a ammonia spike what would cause your tank a tank to crash

 

[nikesb]

it wasnt the rise in nitrates and phosphate though. i didnt even test for nitrates and phosphates after going off the system. It was the bacteria itself that died and my skimmer couldnt keep up with their die off

 

[frenchy in ny]

Thank you guys for your exchange … and this exactly explain the core reason for my initial question as the answer does not sound so clear in the hobby.

If I try to summarize what I understood after several hours on Internet (and PLEASE correct if I have something wrong): concept is to introduce first colonies of bacteria through MB7 (this step could be optional) then give food to these bacteria through carbon addition on a daily basis (done through vodka or if I’m correct Reef Biofuel from Brightwell aquatics having the same intent) to keep them up and living. These bacteria are then assimilating the nitrates and the phosphates and we still evacuate the waste from these through the skimmer. Do I have it right?
- as a side question: does anyone know how would you position the Instant Ocean Nitrate Reducer product in this picture ? I have reading some having very good experience with it …

Then question being what happen if you stop feeding / adding vodka?
- And indeed some are saying that you should not do that as you tank may crash due to the bacteria being addictive to the vodka (J) and then dying leading to a sudden increase in nitrate (one blog even commenting that the biomass of bacteria being jigher more than any cumulative weight of your fish). But up to a point as described by nikeSB to have a ammonia jump … would be even more scary (and as you know would mean that you have no more of any the other means in your tank as before starting the Vodka to get rid of the waste and transforming them into nitrate – and I think this is your point Florida Joe-)
- and some are saying that this would not be such a big deal to stop vodka dosing (even if I agree one should any change gently) as worse case you would just stop seeing the benefit of the vodka. Florida Joe: did you have experience yourself stopping vodka dosing ?

Thanks and I think I will like this forum …

 

[florida joe]

Quote:
Florida Joe: did you have experience yourself stopping vodka dosing ?
yes i have started vodka dosed for a prolonged time and stopped cold turkey so to speak and then started again and stopped again with out any side effects whats so ever

 

[frenchy in ny]

Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///forum/thread/384499/issues-with-interrupting-vodka-system-comparison-vodka-biofuel-mb7#post_3368621
yes i have started vodka dosed for a prolonged time and stopped cold turkey so to speak and then started again and stopped again with out any side effects whats so ever
May I asked what was your steady state daily vodka dosing & size of your system when you did such stopping without noticing any side effects / major issues ?

 

[florida joe]

5 ml a day 110 gallon tank

 

[nikesb]

i was in a total volume of about 35 gallons back then and was set on 3 mL before i quit. i had it a 4 mL with a low bioload and it caused alot of stuff to bleach

 

[spanko]

My observations here. I don't think your ammonia spike was from a die off of the bacteria as in this adding an ammonia source, but rather taking away the bacteria as a nitrifyer. You sad the spike was quickly contained and I believe that the hererotrophic die off was then replaced with an increase in aerobic bacteria.
"Heterotrophic bacteria can divide every 20 minutes vs the 12-20 hours it takes for autotrophic nitrifying bacteria, which means they can out populate the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria by a factor of 36 to 1. Since heterotrophic bacteria directly compete with the nitrifying bacteria for both surface area and oxygen, this undoubtedly limits the populations of nitrifying bacteria.
Some species of heterotrophic bacteria can utilize nitrogenous compounds such as nitrites, nitrate, or other forms of nitrogen, depending on what is available in the water. In the absence of an organic nitrogen source, many heterotrophs can utilize ammonia instead."
JMO and this kind of thing, while I have not read of this before, is the reason anyone thinking of doing a carbon dosing program should read and understand what and why they are doing it and what the possible outcomes can be. I am also a proponent of if you are going to do this go small, take your time, use less than the recommended volumes and watch what happens over a longer time frame.
I tried to look for some material on stopping carbon dosing and the adverse affects but could only find things about nitrate and phosphate increases and algae outbreaks. No where did I find anything about ammonia spikes. Not saying it did not happen to you nike, just trying with the explanation above to suggest some possible causes.

 

[nikesb]

that would make clear sense. like i stated earlier, I believe my tank had almost become dependent on the vodka system. while it wont happen to most people, the chances are still out there i would think
btw, forgot to mention i was on 60 proof vodka when i was dosing.