flower
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/20#post_3543923
sorry, I did get busy.
Leviticus 17:11
Hebrews 9:22
O Sweetie, we were whole different tracks...I thought we were discussing the sacrifices and why we didn't do that now. Okay this is long winded, but I think it's a great study.
I'm very happy to discuss this particular concept. Yeshua was not a human sacrifice, nor did God desire his death for atonement for you. The author of the letter to the Hebrews is trying very hard to explain Jewishness to a gentile people. It's very hard to do, and most seem to think Paul was the author who was very misunderstood...even Peter wrote that about him. 2 Peter 3:16
So lets start with your first example: Lev 17
We are NOT to have anything to do with the blood, we are not to drink it, bath in it or any other pagan concept of using it. It's poured out on the side of the altar and not used. You will have to read the ENTIRE passage to be able to understand that. over and over the author explains that any use of the blood itself is evil. It was spilled because the animal died, it's very life was poured out.
Blood was spilled to make atonement (the animal sacrificed died) , but the blood itself is not to be used, or eaten...it's poured out...even if it was used to "sprinkle" it would be to stain everything as a reminder of the death and loss of life.
Now for Paul's difficult to understand (as presumed written by him) letter: Heb 9
My comments for offering my understanding of the passage will be in (BLUE)
Worship in the Earthly Tabernacle
9 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. [sup]2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. [sup]3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, [sup]4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 [/sup]Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6 [/sup]When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 [/sup]But only the high priest entered the inner room (the most holy place), and that only once a year, and never without blood, (Never without the death of an animal, the blood remember is poured out) which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed u>in ignorance. (there is and never was, a sacrifice for willful sin) [sup]8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. (As long as you are alive in this world, one side of the veil, you are not entering the other side of the veil (most holy place to stand before God himself...so the author is not talking about doing away with one covenant to replace it with a new one, as I have heard preachers claim.)[sup]9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. [sup]10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order. (Now we get to the meat of the passage, the author is clearly explaining that all of that was just a matter of food and drink in a ceremony, so now he goes to explain the "mystical/Zohar" side of the meaning)
The Blood of Christ
[sup]11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[sup][a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. [sup]12 [/sup]He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b][/sup] eternal redemption. (There was a veil that separated the holy from the most holy, where the only the high priest was allowed to go once a year on Yom Kippur...the veil represents one side of life, then passing through to the other side of this life, Yeshua entered into the most holy place, not by the death of animals, but by dying his own death.)13 [/sup]The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 [/sup]How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, (Yeshua cleans our consciences from ACTS that lead to death) [chttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews+9&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30120c][/sup] so that we may serve the living God! (serve the living God, not Yeshua...he did not want us to worship him as a god)
15 [/sup]For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. (This is freedom from the punishment and degree, he did not free us from the law.)
[sup]16 In the case of a will,[sup][d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, (notice the author is talking about dying, not the blood itself, but the actual death...in a will nothing is done in it, until the person DIES) [sup]17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. [sup]18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. [sup]19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. (to be sprinkled is to be stained and marked, a reminder that the animal that sealed the covenant had died to allow them to be clean before to God...blood of the covenant...blood was spilled to bring them to that point)[sup]20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[sup][e] [sup]21 [/sup]In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 [/sup]In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (something had to die to bring about the forgiveness...the blood itself not is used)
23 [/sup]It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 [/sup]For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 [/sup]Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 [/sup]Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 [/sup]Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 [/sup]so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Yeshua died one time, now he forever stands before the Most holy to speak on our behalf...so it isn't his blood that saves us, but the fact he stands before God on our behalf, to speak for us) Talmud teaches us that if one righteous person will stand before God, and speak for the people, God will hear them and relent his harsh decree. Yeshua was a righteous man, he died, and God raised him from the dead, and took him up...to forever stand and speak on our behalf.
In the story of the gardener as told by Yeshua, is the same example, the owner of the trees wanted to cut off completely the tree for not having any fruit...but the gardener stood up for the tree, and begged for time (grace) for him to dig around it, and fertilize it, and afterward if it didn't bare fruit, then cut it down. Luke 13:6-8 ...Notice the IF IT DOESN'T BARE FRUIT THAT THE TREE IS DOOMED REGARDLESS OF THE GARDENERS EFFORTS. AKA trampling underfoot the son of God, and insulting the spirit of GRACE.
I think the hardest part is the passage after this one... Heb 10 but the author sums things up as this:
[sup]26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (a willful sin does not have a sacrifice, it never did)[sup]27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. [sup]28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [sup]29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 [/sup]For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d][/sup] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[ehttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews+10&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30164e][/sup] 31 [/sup]It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The law of Moses is not to be rejected, there is stern punishment for that...but to trample the teachings of Yeshua, knowing what he sacrificed to bring that knowledge to you...its a fearful thing to become the enemy of God. People are not saved by Yeshua's death, his death only allowed him to enter the most holy place...it's his life that saves us...he speaks to the most high for us, that's what a mediator does. His blood didn't do anything, nor did God demand a human sacrifice, what God needed for the people, was a mediator...not a sacrifice, although Yeshua couldn't be before him without dying first. Moses spoke for the people, he was a mediator as well, there were lots of mediators...even you are a mediator if you pray for someone. However a mediator who never lives, and stands before God to make intersession for you, is real salvation and much more permanent. So you see (I hope) it isn't about the blood, it's all about passing through the veil that separated the holy from the most holy...the one that was ripped open when Yeshua died. Mat 27:50
There is one mediator between God and man...The MAN Yeshua (LOL...Christ is not his last name). If Yeshua were a god, it wouldn't be needed for him to die to stand before God, a god of equal standing could always stand in the most holy place.... If he were God himself, he wouldn't have to die at all. However for a righteous man to die, so he could enter the holy of holies and speak for us...that's accomplishing something. For a man to die for a righteous person, one could understand it...but Yeshua was willing to die while the people were yet sinners without hope.
Romans 5
[sup]6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. [sup]7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. [sup]8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Yeshua was not a human sacrifice, he died so he could enter the holy of holies, just as we are all going to die one day and stand before God for judgement...he wanted to die to get to point B from point A. He was willing to die (he sacrificed his life, even the death of the cross to be able to stand there before God on our behalf. God did not demand or require it of him, he was willing to do it because he thought it was worth it...like the fire fighter in my story, who sacrificed his life so the child could live )
9 [/sup]Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 [/sup]For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 [/sup]Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/20#post_3543923
sorry, I did get busy.
Leviticus 17:11
Hebrews 9:22
O Sweetie, we were whole different tracks...I thought we were discussing the sacrifices and why we didn't do that now. Okay this is long winded, but I think it's a great study.
I'm very happy to discuss this particular concept. Yeshua was not a human sacrifice, nor did God desire his death for atonement for you. The author of the letter to the Hebrews is trying very hard to explain Jewishness to a gentile people. It's very hard to do, and most seem to think Paul was the author who was very misunderstood...even Peter wrote that about him. 2 Peter 3:16
So lets start with your first example: Lev 17
We are NOT to have anything to do with the blood, we are not to drink it, bath in it or any other pagan concept of using it. It's poured out on the side of the altar and not used. You will have to read the ENTIRE passage to be able to understand that. over and over the author explains that any use of the blood itself is evil. It was spilled because the animal died, it's very life was poured out.
Blood was spilled to make atonement (the animal sacrificed died) , but the blood itself is not to be used, or eaten...it's poured out...even if it was used to "sprinkle" it would be to stain everything as a reminder of the death and loss of life.
Now for Paul's difficult to understand (as presumed written by him) letter: Heb 9
My comments for offering my understanding of the passage will be in (BLUE)
Worship in the Earthly Tabernacle
9 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. [sup]2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. [sup]3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, [sup]4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 [/sup]Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6 [/sup]When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 [/sup]But only the high priest entered the inner room (the most holy place), and that only once a year, and never without blood, (Never without the death of an animal, the blood remember is poured out) which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed u>in ignorance. (there is and never was, a sacrifice for willful sin) [sup]8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. (As long as you are alive in this world, one side of the veil, you are not entering the other side of the veil (most holy place to stand before God himself...so the author is not talking about doing away with one covenant to replace it with a new one, as I have heard preachers claim.)[sup]9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. [sup]10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order. (Now we get to the meat of the passage, the author is clearly explaining that all of that was just a matter of food and drink in a ceremony, so now he goes to explain the "mystical/Zohar" side of the meaning)
The Blood of Christ
[sup]11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[sup][a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. [sup]12 [/sup]He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b][/sup] eternal redemption. (There was a veil that separated the holy from the most holy, where the only the high priest was allowed to go once a year on Yom Kippur...the veil represents one side of life, then passing through to the other side of this life, Yeshua entered into the most holy place, not by the death of animals, but by dying his own death.)13 [/sup]The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 [/sup]How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, (Yeshua cleans our consciences from ACTS that lead to death) [chttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews+9&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30120c][/sup] so that we may serve the living God! (serve the living God, not Yeshua...he did not want us to worship him as a god)
15 [/sup]For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. (This is freedom from the punishment and degree, he did not free us from the law.)
[sup]16 In the case of a will,[sup][d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, (notice the author is talking about dying, not the blood itself, but the actual death...in a will nothing is done in it, until the person DIES) [sup]17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. [sup]18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. [sup]19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. (to be sprinkled is to be stained and marked, a reminder that the animal that sealed the covenant had died to allow them to be clean before to God...blood of the covenant...blood was spilled to bring them to that point)[sup]20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[sup][e] [sup]21 [/sup]In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 [/sup]In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (something had to die to bring about the forgiveness...the blood itself not is used)
23 [/sup]It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 [/sup]For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 [/sup]Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 [/sup]Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 [/sup]Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 [/sup]so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Yeshua died one time, now he forever stands before the Most holy to speak on our behalf...so it isn't his blood that saves us, but the fact he stands before God on our behalf, to speak for us) Talmud teaches us that if one righteous person will stand before God, and speak for the people, God will hear them and relent his harsh decree. Yeshua was a righteous man, he died, and God raised him from the dead, and took him up...to forever stand and speak on our behalf.
In the story of the gardener as told by Yeshua, is the same example, the owner of the trees wanted to cut off completely the tree for not having any fruit...but the gardener stood up for the tree, and begged for time (grace) for him to dig around it, and fertilize it, and afterward if it didn't bare fruit, then cut it down. Luke 13:6-8 ...Notice the IF IT DOESN'T BARE FRUIT THAT THE TREE IS DOOMED REGARDLESS OF THE GARDENERS EFFORTS. AKA trampling underfoot the son of God, and insulting the spirit of GRACE.
I think the hardest part is the passage after this one... Heb 10 but the author sums things up as this:
[sup]26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (a willful sin does not have a sacrifice, it never did)[sup]27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. [sup]28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [sup]29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 [/sup]For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d][/sup] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[ehttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews+10&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30164e][/sup] 31 [/sup]It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The law of Moses is not to be rejected, there is stern punishment for that...but to trample the teachings of Yeshua, knowing what he sacrificed to bring that knowledge to you...its a fearful thing to become the enemy of God. People are not saved by Yeshua's death, his death only allowed him to enter the most holy place...it's his life that saves us...he speaks to the most high for us, that's what a mediator does. His blood didn't do anything, nor did God demand a human sacrifice, what God needed for the people, was a mediator...not a sacrifice, although Yeshua couldn't be before him without dying first. Moses spoke for the people, he was a mediator as well, there were lots of mediators...even you are a mediator if you pray for someone. However a mediator who never lives, and stands before God to make intersession for you, is real salvation and much more permanent. So you see (I hope) it isn't about the blood, it's all about passing through the veil that separated the holy from the most holy...the one that was ripped open when Yeshua died. Mat 27:50
There is one mediator between God and man...The MAN Yeshua (LOL...Christ is not his last name). If Yeshua were a god, it wouldn't be needed for him to die to stand before God, a god of equal standing could always stand in the most holy place.... If he were God himself, he wouldn't have to die at all. However for a righteous man to die, so he could enter the holy of holies and speak for us...that's accomplishing something. For a man to die for a righteous person, one could understand it...but Yeshua was willing to die while the people were yet sinners without hope.
Romans 5
[sup]6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. [sup]7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. [sup]8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Yeshua was not a human sacrifice, he died so he could enter the holy of holies, just as we are all going to die one day and stand before God for judgement...he wanted to die to get to point B from point A. He was willing to die (he sacrificed his life, even the death of the cross to be able to stand there before God on our behalf. God did not demand or require it of him, he was willing to do it because he thought it was worth it...like the fire fighter in my story, who sacrificed his life so the child could live )
9 [/sup]Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 [/sup]For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 [/sup]Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation
