It's easter...got a question

darthtang aw

Active Member

Oh... now I see what you are talking about.
The answer is, no not to my knowledge, did you read something that gave you that impression?. The people were taken by Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and the city sat in ruins, including the temple. even before that time the first temple had been slowly pillaged by the Philistines and such because the people were disobedient to God. The books of the Judges tells us that each time God sent prophet after prophet to warn them of the coming dangerous results of their disobedience... but eventually Judah, even after seeing what happened to Israel, committed idolarty and they were also carried away captive.
Unlike Israel that was assimilated into the nations and disappeared, Judah decided to cling to the law as much as they could in Babylon, but sacrifices were not part of that life. The story of Daniel and the 3 Hebrew boys tells a little about the life they lived. Cyrus was a King of Persia who came into power after Nebuchadnezzar and the fall of Babylon ... he allowed the Jews to return and rebuild the temple, which became known as the second temple, it didn't have the splendor of the first.
I don't recall any of the sacrifices being done during the time Judah was sent in exile until they returned. The second temple was really just rebuilding and renovating the first.
Ok, I did some further research and have to agree with your perspective that no sacrifices/offerings were done outside of the temple, even after it was first destroyed. Most of what I read only made an indication that this stopped in 70CE. Took a lot more digging to correlate that it, in fact, did stop after the first destruction as well.
I believe we are done here.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/60#post_3544075
Ok, I did some further research and have to agree with your perspective that no sacrifices/offerings were done outside of the temple, even after it was first destroyed. Most of what I read only made an indication that this stopped in 70CE. Took a lot more digging to correlate that it, in fact, did stop after the first destruction as well.
I believe we are done here.

LOL... Yes we can be done now.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

HI,
There is one serious problem with thinking good DEEDS are in. You see Good deeds are the preforming the statutes and commandments from the law, and Christians are taught to be careful to not follow them because they mistakenly think that to follow the law is to fall from grace. All The Apostle Paul was trying to explain in that very misunderstood passage, is that good deeds is not an "in" to enter the kingdom of God, it never was. If you THINK that it is, THEN you have fallen from understanding what grace is all about and the apostles efforts to teach were all in vain.
When Yeshua was asked by a young man what a person should do to enter, he said to obey what he understands of the law, and to come follow him. This was spoken to a Jewish person.
Paul wanted the Galatians (gentiles) to understand that they didn't need to go get circumcised to be accepted in the beloved kingdom. He explained that if you go that far that you obligate yourself to be beholden to the entire law, which they didn't even know how to preform and would get into trouble. That they were better off to be considered righteous (which would be the Noahide laws)
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/seven-laws-of-noah/
In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), or the Noahide Laws, are a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humankind.
According to Judaism, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the World to Come (Hebrew: עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides," and may sometimes network in Jewish synagogues.[citation needed]
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:
The Noahide laws comprise the six commandments which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16, and a seventh precept, which was added after the Flood of Noah. According to Judaism, the 613 commandments given in the written Torah, as well as their explanations and applications discussed in the oral Torah, are applicable to the Jews only, and non-Jews are bound only to observe the seven Noahide laws.
The Noahide laws teach to avoid these 6 sins, and obey the 7th
1. Sexual transgression
2. Murder
3. Theft
4. Idolatry
5. Cursing the Holy name
6. Eating the flesh from a live animal
7. To have a fair system of justice to punish offenders
The way I see it, idolatry is to worship any god besides the ONE TRUE GOD, and I have to tell you folks....his name is not Jesus. Yeshua was SENT from The One God, he was not a god, he was not a demi-god, and he is not to be worshipped as a god. To consider him so, is a very serious offence to law of Judaism and Noah's laws. The worship of another god is to nullify everything offered and every door to salvation nailed shut.
There is one more train of thought that I want to address...the lost children of the house of Israel are the children of Isaac the child of promise, and all who are of that bloodline are Jews
and beholden to the law.
Israel and Judah were separated after Solomon's death, the Messiah... to be called messiah the promised one...he has to unite Israel/Ephraim with Judah again in order to fulfill the prophecy. If he doesn't do this, he can not be called Messiah, the one promised.
Now, WHO IS ISRAEL? Paul wrote that the scattering of Israel brought salvation to the gentiles...do you know how the scattering did that, and what he means? Christians THINK this passage pertains to Jews who don't know Jesus, but it's a prophecy concerning the scattered house of Israel, in the writings of the prophets AKA Ephraim. Paul says when Israel returns, it will be life from the dead, and all will be fulfilled. because of this passage Christians THINK they have a mission to save the Jews, but the Jews have the mission to teach Israel when they return, we have kept the books, and have kept the law just as it was when they were scattered, so they can return, and be a part of the Holy people that they were originally. If the roots are holy, so are the branches that came from it...God has not forgotten the scattered of Israel.
Yeshua said he was ONLY sent to the lost of the house of ISRAEL (Matt 15:24), that does not mean as Christians have been taught, that he was speaking about the Jews, nor is there a lost house...rather he was speaking about the scattered called Israel/Ephraim. He said the healthy do not need a physician, (that would be the Jews who were following the law (Luke 5:31). Yeshua considered the people who were already following the laws, as not sick, but the ones who were sinners were being called to repent. The prophecies say the forces of the gentiles will also be drawn in (Isaiah 49:5-7), he not only would bring glory to the house of Jacob, because they have followed God all along, but he would also RESTORE the remnant of Israel...so that God's promise of salvation will be for all the world, when all the prophecy is fulfilled, all the world will know that there is only One God, and his name will be the only God known by all. (Zac 14:9)
Israel must be separated from the nations, they look and act like every non-Jew... there comes a time when it is declared for Israel to come out of her...now that's a study of the scriptures worthy to be looked at.
Ofcorse, not. Good deeds and sacrifice is meaningless without obedience to God. I gathered that.
Are you saying that a fair system of justice is a yes or a no in God's eyes? Israel is awaiting the prophet, no?
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/60#post_3544219
Ofcorse, not. Good deeds and sacrifice is meaningless without obedience to God. I gathered that.
Are you saying that a fair system of justice is a yes or a no in God's eyes? Israel is awaiting the prophet, no?

Hi,

I thought this thread had died... so I wasn't checking.

The point I was trying to make really is that it isn't every man doing what is right in his own eyes, rather I want folks to understand that God is very specific on what a good deed is. For example, I heard a preacher preach for an hour on the evils of wearing open toed shoes....seriously, it was a holiness speaking in tongues kind of place, and the preacher was convinced open toed shoes were evil. When I pointed out that Yeshua wore open toed shoes, I was told I wasn't equal to Jesus.

People invent stuff they call evil, smoking, and drinking are another example. One preacher actually told me that in Jesus time, they didn't know how to ferment wine to be potent like they do today, it was just grape juice. It was not well received when I reminded him that Lot got so drunk he didn't know his daughters had slept with him....and he was a long time before Jesus, Noah got pretty drunk too...Yeshua was accused of being a wine bibber, now why make such an accusation if he wasn't drinking? While it's always wise to be responsible and not over do it...it's silly to call any drinking at all to be a sin.

Jews are indeed waiting for the promised messiah. He has not come yet, modern day Christians say he will "return" and fulfill what is written of him. The simple fact is, to be "called" the messiah promised, he must fulfill all that is written of him to have the title. Yeshua has not YET done so. Therefore he can't hold such a title, that doesn't mean people like myself can't look at what he has done and say they "BELEIVE" he will be the one when he comes. Yeshua when he was taken up said he would return, and it is recorded that angels said the same.... That's great, I personally believe that... and I personally believe he will be the promised Moshiach when he does. It's okay with me if Christians want to call him messiah, I don't see anything at all wrong with that at all, however calling Yeshua/Jesus a messiah/moshiach, is not the problem...calling him a god in any way shape or form is.

Oh and another thing to keep in mind...
Matt 10:41-42
40"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me
. 41"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. 42http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-42.htm"And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

It really doesn't matter if a person thinks Yeshua was a prophet, a messiah, or just a righteous man or rabbi.... the important thing is to remember the ONE WHO SENT HIM. The reward
for honoring a prophet, a messiah or a good righteous man...is the same. To receive his teachings, pleases the One who sent him.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Hi,
I thought this thread had died... so I wasn't checking.
The point I was trying to make really is that it isn't every man doing what is right in his own eyes, rather I want folks to understand that God is very specific on what a good deed is. For example, I heard a preacher preach for an hour on the evils of wearing open toed shoes....seriously, it was a holiness speaking in tongues kind of place, and the preacher was convinced open toed shoes were evil. When I pointed out that Yeshua wore open toed shoes, I was told I wasn't equal to Jesus.
People invent stuff they call evil, smoking, and drinking are another example. One preacher actually told me that in Jesus time, they didn't know how to ferment wine to be potent like they do today, it was just grape juice. It was not well received when I reminded him that Lot got so drunk he didn't know his daughters had slept with him....and he was a long time before Jesus, Noah got pretty drunk too...Yeshua was accused of being a wine bibber, now why make such an accusation if he wasn't drinking? While it's always wise to be responsible and not over do it...it's silly to call any drinking at all to be a sin.
Jews are indeed waiting for the promised messiah. He has not come yet, modern day Christians say he will "return" and fulfill what is written of him. The simple fact is, to be "called" the messiah promised, he must fulfill all that is written of him to have the title. Yeshua has not YET done so. Therefore he can't hold such a title, that doesn't mean people like myself can't look at what he has done and say they "BELEIVE" he will be the one when he comes. Yeshua when he was taken up said he would return, and it is recorded that angels said the same.... That's great, I personally believe that... and I personally believe he will be the promised Moshiach when he does. It's okay with me if Christians want to call him messiah, I don't see anything at all wrong with that at all, however calling Yeshua/Jesus a  messiah/moshiach, is not the problem...calling him a god in any way shape or form is.
Oh and another thing to keep in mind...
Matt 10:41-42
40"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. 42http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-42.htm"And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."
It really doesn't matter if a person thinks Yeshua was a prophet, a messiah, or just a righteous man or rabbi.... the important thing is to remember the ONE WHO SENT HIM. The reward
for honoring a prophet, a messiah or a good righteous man...is the same. To receive his teachings, pleases the One who sent him.
Makes sense. The thread unfortunately was just getting good but I digress. There is much in what you've shared here that falls inline with some of my thinking. I respect your views and your religion as being one of the world's oldest and truest to form. For those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Honest question...was that a yes or a no in God's eyes a out having a fair system of justice.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member

Makes sense. The thread unfortunately was just getting good but I digress. There is much in what you've shared here that falls inline with some of my thinking. I respect your views and your religion as being one of the world's oldest and truest to form. For those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Honest question...was that a yes or a no in God's eyes a out having a fair system of justice.
It is a yes, I believe.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/60#post_3544267
Makes sense. The thread unfortunately was just getting good but I digress. There is much in what you've shared here that falls inline with some of my thinking. I respect your views and your religion as being one of the world's oldest and truest to form. For those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Honest question...was that a yes or a no in God's eyes a out having a fair system of justice.

Well I guess since it's part of the Noahide laws the answer must be a yes.

People need to build some kind of system to punish those who wrong others and protect the innocent. It should be a fair system, where the poor and rich have the same life rules to live by, and if it's broken it should be as fair a decision as possible. Judges have a responsibility to be fair to all... Is that always the case??? Human nature is often flawed and influenced, but the righteous person who follows the Noahide laws would do their very best to make as informed and fair a decision as possible.

That's all that God ever asks of us...our best, it may not be perfect, but if you really did your best, that which is brass would be as treasured as gold. Isaiah 60:17
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

Well I guess since it's part of the Noahide laws the answer must be a yes.
People need to build some kind of system to punish those who wrong others and protect the innocent. It should be a fair system, where the poor and rich have the same life rules to live by, and if it's broken it should be as fair a decision as possible. Judges have a responsibility to be fair to all... Is that always the case??? Human nature is often flawed and influenced, but the righteous person who follows the Noahide laws would do their very best to make as informed and fair a decision as possible.
That's all that God ever asks of us...our best, it may not be perfect, but if you really did your best, that which is brass would be as treasured as gold. Isaiah 60:17
Sounds fair to me. Funny how godless men believe so much in similar systems but fear the idea of where these concepts came from.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/60#post_3544351
Sounds fair to me. Funny how godless men believe so much in similar systems but fear the idea of where these concepts came from.

I agree....I think the entire American judicial system is set up on "Biblical patterns"...the Prosecutor is the accusing "devil" . The judge is God, and the defending attorney plays the roll of Jesus...the 12 Jurors are the 12 Apostles. It might be an interesting study to find out how and when exactly the system was determined.

It is not the system of Judaism by the way, the idea of having witnesses is, but there was a group called the Sanhedrin, it consisted of 72 men in Yeshua's time...Paul by the way was on that council or he could not have had the authority to stone Stephen or any other Christian (Jews who believed in Yeshua). He became a believer himself later on, there were a few on the council that were. My late husband (may he rest in peace) had many examples that showed Paul was part of that council...I wish I could find his notes....It was a fascinating study, but it has been many years since we discussed it.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

I agree....I think the entire American judicial system is set up on "Biblical patterns"...the Prosecutor is the accusing "devil" . The judge is God, and the defending attorney plays the roll of Jesus...the 12 Jurors are the 12 Apostles. It might be an interesting study to find out how and when exactly the system was determined.
It is not the system of Judaism by the way, the idea of having witnesses is, but there was a group called the Sanhedrin, it consisted of 72 men in Yeshua's time...Paul by the way was on that council or he could not have had the authority to stone Stephen or any other Christian (Jews who believed in Yeshua). He became a believer himself later on, there were a few on the council that were. My late husband (may he rest in peace) had many examples that showed Paul was part of that council...I wish I could find his notes....It was a fascinating study, but it has been many years since we discussed it.
I think systems have simply evolved. Our system more or less was a kin to earlier European models. 12 jurors can mean any number of things. The number 12 shows up in patterns all over such as 12 = a dozen, 12 months in a year, 12 inches in a foot, 12 cans of beer to a case, it can go on and on. But given the history of Christianity in the founding of this country nothing would surprise me.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/60#post_3544419
I think systems have simply evolved. Our system more or less was a kin to earlier European models. 12 jurors can mean any number of things. The number 12 shows up in patterns all over such as 12 = a dozen, 12 months in a year, 12 inches in a foot, 12 cans of beer to a case, it can go on and on. But given the history of Christianity in the founding of this country nothing would surprise me.

Since I was a young girl I was told that, and I never questioned it...I did just go look it up... and it just isn't so, I learned something new. The Puritans had magistrates and the Justice system did evolve from that and a few other influences.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

Since I was a young girl I was told that, and I never questioned it...I did just go look it up... and it just isn't so, I learned something new. The Puritans had magistrates and the Justice system did evolve from that and a few other influences.
I should clarify in that I think many things evolved out of religious influences that have shaped the way things are today. The entire concept of having a system of justice as you have pointed out here was handed down by God. You're idea of things being set up in biblical patterns is valid if our system was handed down to us by the original separatist puritans who fled Europe to come here. Their journey birthed the mayflower compact which many believe was the precursor to our constitution.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397568/its-easter-got-a-question/60#post_3544535
I should clarify in that I think many things evolved out of religious influences that have shaped the way things are today. The entire concept of having a system of justice as you have pointed out here was handed down by God. You're idea of things being set up in biblical patterns is valid if our system was handed down to us by the original separatist puritans who fled Europe to come here. Their journey birthed the mayflower compact which many believe was the precursor to our constitution.

The puritans is what I looked up, they had a magistrate and no jurors, the fellow kind of ran the whole show from what I read briefly (I just read a little, just enough to find out I was wrong). The wild west gave most of the power to the sheriff, and later a judge position was created, who traveled from town to town to decide the guilt and punishment of who the sheriff locked up.

I know what you mean about most things emerging from religion, perhaps that's why I believed what I did without question on where our system of justice came from. I wonder if Crimzy had to study how it all came about to be a lawyer.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

The puritans is what I looked up, they had a magistrate and no jurors, the fellow kind of ran the whole show from what I read briefly (I just read a little, just enough to find out I was wrong). The wild west gave most of the power to the sheriff, and later a judge position was created, who traveled from town to town to decide the guilt and punishment of who the sheriff locked up.
I know what you mean about most things emerging from religion, perhaps that's why I believed what I did without question on where our system of justice came from. I wonder if Crimzy had to study how it all came about to be a lawyer.
It would be tough to pin point I think. Puritans who later settled here were a little more "old world" minded vs the original groups who fled here to escape religious persecution in their home land. They were divided there as well. Early America turned into a bit of a mix of old and new world ideas.
 
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