Just saw this bumber sticker!!!

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Again... Nobody is in Iraq who didn't volunteer to go there.
You've argued this a couple of times and I honestly don't get your point. Are you saying that it's ok to sacrifice these kids if they enlist voluntarily? You think this makes their deaths acceptable??????
 

jovial

Member
Death is a prospect you accept when you join. I knew what I was getting into. Thats why the military is voluntary force, those that do not accept the possibilty of death do not have to volunteer.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
You've argued this a couple of times and I honestly don't get your point. Are you saying that it's ok to sacrifice these kids if they enlist voluntarily? You think this makes their deaths acceptable??????

If you've seen me post this a couple of times than you must have seen the posts I was responding too. People try to make it out like our soldiers didn't expect to go to war.
The numbers are clear. Rention rates are high and every branch of the military is meeting recruitment goals.
Crimzy, the whole post is beneath you. You know my arguments well enough to know how precious these soldiers are to me. Each death is a tremendous loss; I just don't want the lie floating around out there that the brave men and women in the armed forces didn't know what they were getting into.
 

newton

New Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
The bumper sticker read, "The Germans supported their troops also.".
Not sure how I feel about that one., I actually got mad and had thoughts of driving my truck over their little Hybrid. To equate our troops to the SS and Nazis of world war 11 and say the jewish holocaust is no different than what our troops are trying to accomplish made me see red.
Man, I must've missed world wars 3-10.
 

autofreak44

Active Member
Originally Posted by alix2.0
we tried to reason after the problem had already begun. things should have been happening differently since... probably the beginning of time. but we cant change that now. so why do we have to prolong the problems? instead we should be evaluating the situation and taking action to change OUR ways, instead of the ways of others.
tell that to osama bin laden(sp?) or Saddam Hussein...and they are going to cap you, period. so if we want people like that to stop capping people, we might have to get the point through their head with a bullet. dont get me wrong, i hate violence and death, but sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Dreamer44
mostly of kids right out of high school with the promise of a college education paid for in return for their serving in the military....I know for "FACT" that they do not always follow through with the promised education, my nephew served 4 yrs in the marines and went to iraq and completed 4 or 5 tours there, he was lucky to get home alive. He now has mental problems from the crap they forced him to do. no schooling for him, no compensation either,
he was 17 when they got him to sign up, and 18 when they sent him to boot camp, they trained him for 8 lousy weeks and shipped him straight over to iraq.
and yes, I do support the troops, they are innocent young adults, with promises dangled in front of their eyes, the war however is a different story, I think Bush should get his butt over there on the front line and fight his own war, and let the troops come home.
Just my opinion, that is all
Lori
Boot camp for the marines is 13 weeks.
None of my family joined the marines for an education, They joined because they loved there country and blowing stuff up. It was a win win situation. If you aren't smart enough to understand that joining the military = going to war. The whole point of having a military to begin with. Then
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by firefish9
Sorry if I come of a little rude here and dont take it personally
My family supports the troops but we dont support the war. To not support the troops to me dosent make much sense They are fighting for us the USA they are dieing for ur freedoms. My father teachs at a poor school all the kids cant afford college so they join up. I agree with crimzy and the statement above
Bush cant go hes the president his daughter on the other hand.........

First off, you have a choice. I have broken this down before on how a ten dollar an hour job is the equivalent to the average pay an enlisted person makes. So I will not go into that. It is not that hard to find a ten dollar an hour job. Hell a 7 dollar an hour job with some overtime will be the same amount if you factot into account the number of hours military personal put in. And I am not talking about during war time.
Secondly, 75% of our military is made of people that come from middle class and upper middle class families....They are by far not poor.
Look these figures up yourself instead of listening to the montage of people that present you know fact and then repeating the montage.
 

f14peter

Member
Originally Posted by alix2.0
my grandfather was in the 8th airforce in ww2, and i consider him a murderer. war is no way to solve anything.
Certainly a noble thought (About war), one to which I happen to agree ... with a bit of reality thrown in.
The issue is that everybody would have to buy into it. Every despot, tyrant, power-hungry dictator, etc would have to go along, and I'm afraid I just don't see that happening any time in the near future.
I'm sure your grandfather would have rather been doing something other than spending his early years flying above Germany, helping drop bombs while Luftwaffe fighters and flak batteries were trying to kill him. I'm just as sure that he, as well as millions of others at that time felt their effort was worthwhile. Surely you're familiar with such things as Dachau, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, et al, and the annexation of the Sudetenland, the division of Poland between Germany and the Soviet Union, Malmedy, Kristallnacht, the inslavement of hundreds of thousands in Organization Todt, and incountable other atrocities. If not, take some time to do some research and discover why Tom Brokow named the Americans of your grandfathers age the "Greatest Generation."
While you're at it, also look up Nanking, the Bataan Death March, the Kempeitai, what happened at Changjiao, what "Sook Ching" means to the Chinese related to Japanese actions.
Maybe the question I'm trying to ask, is in your mind there absolutely no circumstance in which military action is necessary? The young men and women of the 1940s answered a call of the highest order ... if the United States did not enter World War II, maybe not until 1946 or '47, and only if Germany obtained the ability and will to strike the continental United States significantly, would your grandfather and his fellows had been in mortal danger. But they felt compelled to do something, right a great wrong, liberate and free millions of enslaved people, stem the tide of aggression sweeping the world, and keep millions of others from suffering the same fate.
Was that the same spirit that affected the Marquis de Lafayette who as a Frenchman embraced the revolution occuring in America in the late 1700s and fought alongside George Washington, the young men of the Lafayette Escradrille, or those of the RAF's Eagle Squadrons in early WWII? People who had no personal stake, yet decided to place themselves in harm's way ... because they felt it was the right thing to do.
Again as already mentioned, appeasement has been tried, and all it does is imbolden the abitious. While in no condition to do so at the time, if during the Munich conferences prior to WWII Britain and France took a strong stand against Germany, in all likelihood much of the following conflageration could have been avoided (As little threat the two countries posed to Germany, frankly Germany was in no position to confront them either in 1938). Neville Chamberlin's absurd "Peace in our times" statement and concessions only hastened WWII by giving Germany a free and unobstructed hand in Europe. The end of the US's envolement in Vietnam in 1973 didn't end the war ... in 1975, North Vietnam launched a conventional warfare invasion and quickly conquered the South.
An interesting take on how effective strong-arm diplomacy can be in the right situation would be reading BLACK HAWK DOWN by Mark Bowden, about Somalia during the 1990s. Bowden, who's done a lot of research about the region, states that for better or worse, Somalis understood that rule came from a gun and he ventures that if the US and allies went into Somalia in force and not afraid to use it, they could have easily disposed of the warlords, restored order ... and as odd as it sounds, could have averted much of the famine that killed so many.
If it wasn't like people like your grandfather 200 years ago (and with all due respect to our British friends), you'd be driving on the left side of the road, throwing your luggage into the boot instead of the trunk, and getting a large order of chips with your Big Mac instead of fries ... or possiby speaking French or Spanish if Great Britain couldn't hold the colonies.
To return to the original point, as long as there are those that seek to profit by wielding a sword against their own people or their neighbors; as long as someone covets the assets/territory of another; as long as somebody seeks to deflect the deficiencies in their own policies by blaming external enfluences; as long as centuries-old grudges are held by one group against another ... then worldwide peace would seem ellusive.
In no way, shape, or form am I putting you or your feelings down, and in fact I appreciate your sentiment. It's just that over the last hundreds, if not thousands, of years, the world doesn't seem capable of accepting the idea. Sincerely, here's to you Alix ... I, along with several billion others honestly hope your dream comes true.
 

f14peter

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
If you've seen me post this a couple of times than you must have seen the posts I was responding too. People try to make it out like our soldiers didn't expect to go to war.
The numbers are clear. Rention rates are high and every branch of the military is meeting recruitment goals.
Crimzy, the whole post is beneath you. You know my arguments well enough to know how precious these soldiers are to me. Each death is a tremendous loss; I just don't want the lie floating around out there that the brave men and women in the armed forces didn't know what they were getting into.
Sage comments, J'man. Around Five years ago my son came to my house with a US Army recruitment sergeant, asking for my approval to enlist in the US Army. He needed me to sign-off because he was 17 and wanted to enter the Army's Early Enlistment program which committed him at that point, although he couldn't actually join until he was 18 and graduated high school. I excused my son and myself from the sergeant, we went outside and I asked him straight up, "You do realize, that given the world situation today, you could soon find yourself up to your armpits in the honest-to-God, no-bull, this-ain't-no-Hollywood-movie, real-life S%#t, don't you?" His reply was, "Yes, I fully understand that." My next comment was, "Okay, as long as you know that, and are willing to enlist, and honor your committment, I'll sign off of this, if this is what you really want." His firm "Yes! I really want to do this" reply was one of my proudest moments ... not because my son was joining the Army, but because my son was willing to committ to something for the first time in his life, and recognize that what he was committing to was serious, even dangerous, yet he was still willing to do it.
Incidently, he did pull a year in "An undisclosed overseas location", which is Armyspeak for Iraq. He now wears a tattoo on his arm with the names of two of his best buddies in his unit who didn't come home.
I read with interest several news stories about when National Guard units started being called up and some of the members who expressed outrage at, (perish the thought) being deployed. Some even went so far as to say (paradoxially) "I didn't join the military to go to war, I just wanted to serve my weekends and annual deployment, then collect the money." When my son was home on leave from Iraq, I asked his opinon on this and his response was, "Well, I'm in the REAL Army, I work for a living and live up to what I signed on for." I read the entire enlistment contract I and my son signed ... it was pretty clear that going into "Harm's way" was a real possibility.
 

f14peter

Member
Going back to the original post about bumperstickers, I did see an interesting (and to me, amusing) one a while ago:
"If you're not willing to stand behind our troops ... feel free to stand in front of them."
 

grabbitt

Active Member
Originally Posted by f14peter
Going back to the original post about bumperstickers, I did see an interesting (and to me, amusing) one a while ago:
"If you're not willing to stand behind our troops ... feel free to stand in front of them."
Heh heh... I would much rather see that on the car in front of me than the one sparking this thread...
 

ci11337

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
I think you're missing the point of the bumper sticker... at least my interpretation. I don't think that the sticker is necessarily saying that what we are doing in Iraq is comparable to the Nazis. However, I do think that the sticker is cautioning against blind support of a regime, without questions. We must decide if we believe that our current actions are right before we just blindly run around spouting out that we should support our troops.
I support our troops.... I want them home safe. But I don't support the war. People of like thinking should speak out. Just as they should have in Germany.
yup
 

alix2.0

Active Member
Originally Posted by f14peter
In no way, shape, or form am I putting you or your feelings down, and in fact I appreciate your sentiment. It's just that over the last hundreds, if not thousands, of years, the world doesn't seem capable of accepting the idea. Sincerely, here's to you Alix ... I, along with several billion others honestly hope your dream comes true.

no offense taken at all, i totally agree. i realize that my ideal is never going to happen, and in the grand scheme of things what does it matter who dies or what happens to anything? but while were here we can still try a little to better the situation for our children.
specks of dust... except dust doesnt kill eachother. alot of this thread has been arguing with me, but i just wanted to say that i agree with everything that has been said in support of my ideas and any other ideas anyone has mentioned. they are true because they are your own and you make them true. that is what is beautiful.
im not trying to make anyone mad or cause any controversy. just my opinion.
i dont think ill be posting on this thread anymore, ive said all i wanted and to say any more would be pointless. thank you for all your time and for caring enough about something to have an opinion. because that is all that matters. make something happen.
im only 15, and whos to say i wont ever change my perspective? i have my whole life to change. but for now, thats all.
alix
 

vpotts28

Active Member
Originally Posted by alix2.0
my grandfather was in the 8th airforce in ww2, and i consider him a murderer. war is no way to solve anything. maybe instead of trying to kill everyone who pisses us off, maybe we should be acting proactively to prevent causing the problems in the future. and dont say that killing people is a way to do that, because im not buying that.

Well then.... I may be a little late here.
You make me sick to my stomach.
I understand you are young. Again I will excuse your ignorance.
The US did not do anything to deserve what happened on Dec 7 1941. Do you even know the significance of that date.? Your grandfather did not ask to get involved with a mad man who was trying to rule the world. Hitler dragged the whole world into his psychosis and you are blaming your grandfather? You better be glad that he did DEFEND his country, because you would not be able to sit here and spew your childish liberal views to the rest of the world. Without him you don't exist. Start reading, and start respecting your Grandfather, its time to educate yourself. How dare you?
 

alix2.0

Active Member
Originally Posted by Vpotts28
Well then.... I may be a little late here.
You make me sick to my stomach.
I understand you are young. Again I will excuse your ignorance.
The US did not do anything to deserve what happened on Dec 7 1941. Do you even know the significance of that date.? Your grandfather did not ask to get involved with a mad man who was trying to rule the world. Hitler dragged the whole world into his psychosis and you are blaming your grandfather? You better be glad that he did DEFEND his country, because you would not be able to sit here and spew your childish liberal views to the rest of the world. Without him you don't exist. Start reading, and start respecting your Grandfather, its time to educate yourself. How dare you?
i did not intend to post here again, but i will not let myself be insulted. how stupid do you think i am? just because i have a different opinion than you suddenly i am ignorant? you dont even know me, so how can you judge that? i know exactly why i believe the way i do, and i am not saying the the us deserved to be bombed. all i am saying is that killing people in order to create peace makes very little sense. of course there are exceptions, such as hitler. i am just saying we should be thinking more proactively.
 

fishyfrenzy

Member
Originally Posted by Vpotts28
Well then.... I may be a little late here.
You make me sick to my stomach.
I understand you are young. Again I will excuse your ignorance.
The US did not do anything to deserve what happened on Dec 7 1941. Do you even know the significance of that date.? Your grandfather did not ask to get involved with a mad man who was trying to rule the world. Hitler dragged the whole world into his psychosis and you are blaming your grandfather? You better be glad that he did DEFEND his country, because you would not be able to sit here and spew your childish liberal views to the rest of the world. Without him you don't exist. Start reading, and start respecting your Grandfather, its time to educate yourself. How dare you?
I think it is arrogant to tell someone they are ignorant because of their views.
Her grandfather may have dropped bombs on German cities, and killed innocent people.
Maybe even children.
Just because she thinks her grandfather is a murderer, doesn't neccasarily mean that she doesn't love him.
War Murderer(Soldier) > Murderer.
And childish liberal views?
That's rather harsh.
If someone was drafted into the army, It's not neccasarily their fault, but volunteering?
It all depends on how you look at it.
Do I respect the troops for being there, and sacrificing their lives? Yes. Do I respect them for murdering people trying to kill them? Not really, but I don't disrespect them. Do I respect them for tearing lives apart, and maybe even killing innocent bystanders?
Hell no.
 
Y

youngreeftank9

Guest
im sry but i respect the troops from vietnam because the were drafted they had no choice. as for the baby killing part most of the babys were goin to die neway because their mothers would rig bombs underneath them and when they were picked up the bomb would detonate. but iraq i have talked to ex snipers and they have said that in the 90's we could have killed saddam then but the 1st bush would allow it. if they could have pulled the trigger most of this could have been avoided. also i think the war is just a revenge plot on saddam because he attacked bush's daddy. say what u will but im not saying all i believe so if u dont like it kiss my a$$ simple as that
 
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