Just Wow!

darthtang aw

Active Member
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9113394/Killing-babies-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html
Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say
Parents should be allowed to have their newborn babies killed because they are “morally irrelevant” and ending their lives is no different to abortion, a group of medical ethicists linked to Oxford University has argued.
By Stephen Adams, Medical Correspondent
1:38PM GMT 29 Feb 2012
Comments2298 Comments
The article, published in the Journal of Medical Ethics, says newborn babies are not “actual persons” and do not have a “moral right to life”. The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.
The journal’s editor, Prof Julian Savulescu, director of the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics, said the article's authors had received death threats since publishing the article. He said those who made abusive and threatening posts about the study were “fanatics opposed to the very values of a liberal society”.
The article, entitled “After-birth abortion: Why should the baby live?”, was written by two of Prof Savulescu’s former associates, Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva.
They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”
Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’.
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“We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.”
As such they argued it was “not possible to damage a newborn by preventing her from developing the potentiality to become a person in the morally relevant sense”.
The authors therefore concluded that “what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled”.
They also argued that parents should be able to have the baby killed if it turned out to be disabled without their knowing before birth, for example citing that “only the 64 per cent of Down’s syndrome cases” in Europe are diagnosed by prenatal testing.
Once such children were born there was “no choice for the parents but to keep the child”, they wrote.
“To bring up such children might be an unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care.”
However, they did not argue that some baby killings were more justifiable than others – their fundamental point was that, morally, there was no difference to abortion as already practised.
They preferred to use the phrase “after-birth abortion” rather than “infanticide” to “emphasise that the moral status of the individual killed is comparable with that of a fetus”.
Both Minerva and Giubilini know Prof Savulescu through Oxford. Minerva was a research associate at the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics until last June, when she moved to the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics at Melbourne University.
Giubilini, a former visiting student at Cambridge University, gave a talk in January at the Oxford Martin School – where Prof Savulescu is also a director – titled 'What is the problem with euthanasia?'
He too has gone on to Melbourne, although to the city’s Monash University. Prof Savulescu worked at both univerisities before moving to Oxford in 2002.
Defending the decision to publish in a British Medical Journal blog, Prof Savulescu, said that arguments in favour of killing newborns were “largely not new”.
What Minerva and Giubilini did was apply these arguments “in consideration of maternal and family interests”.
While accepting that many people would disagree with their arguments, he wrote: “The goal of the Journal of Medical Ethics is not to present the Truth or promote some one moral view. It is to present well reasoned argument based on widely accepted premises.”
Speaking to The Daily Telegraph, he added: “This “debate” has been an example of “witch ethics” - a group of people know who the witch is and seek to burn her. It is one of the most dangerous human tendencies we have. It leads to lynching and genocide. Rather than argue and engage, there is a drive is to silence and, in the extreme, kill, based on their own moral certainty. That is not the sort of society we should live in.”
He said the journal would consider publishing an article positing that, if there was no moral difference between abortion and killing newborns, then abortion too should be illegal.
Dr Trevor Stammers, director of medical ethics at St Mary's University College, said: "If a mother does smother her child with a blanket, we say 'it's doesn't matter, she can get another one,' is that what we want to happen?
"What these young colleagues are spelling out is what we would be the inevitable end point of a road that ethical philosophers in the States and Australia have all been treading for a long time and there is certainly nothing new."
Referring to the term "after-birth abortion", Dr Stammers added: "This is just verbal manipulation that is not philosophy. I might refer to abortion henceforth as antenatal infanticide."
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
I just finished reading the article...
All I have to say is that this concept is not a new one. More often than not in human history, tribes of people would leave babies to die that they knew would be a burden to their family/tribe and would abandon the baby in order to not have a life long burden of taking care of it. In Greece, especially Sparta, babies were analyzed and a decision was made in order to keep them or not. It hasn't been until the last 150 years that we have had enough medical knowledge to know if a baby was going to be born disabled (I call it defective, since I believe in a womans right to terminate the life growing in her.). So what right does society have to tell a couple that they have to keep a baby who they know will be a lifelong burden to them? Most of these kinds of cases end up in SIDS cases anyways... go figure.
I say lets go a step further and eliminate all the other drains on society - lifetime convicts, three offense thieves, and politicians. What's wrong with euthanasia?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
WeI just finished reading the article...
All I have to say is that this concept is not a new one. More often than not in human history, tribes of people would leave babies to die that they knew would be a burden to their family/tribe and would abandon the baby in order to not have a life long burden of taking care of it. In Greece, especially Sparta, babies were analyzed and a decision was made in order to keep them or not. It hasn't been until the last 150 years that we have had enough medical knowledge to know if a baby was going to be born disabled (I call it defective, since I believe in a womans right to terminate the life growing in her.). So what right does society have to tell a couple that they have to keep a baby who they know will be a lifelong burden to them? Most of these kinds of cases end up in SIDS cases anyways... go figure.
I say lets go a step further and eliminate all the other drains on society - lifetime convicts, three offense thieves, and politicians. What's wrong with euthanasia? 
Well hell. Lets just kill off paraplegics, the elderly, and anyone with an uncureable disease while we are at it.
We talk about human rights but yet would deny the basic human right of life?
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Hitler did it and he was Time magazine's man of the year 1938.
Who gets to decide who has the right to life? Is there a right to be alive? We are such an individualistic culture that we no longer care about long term survival. Survival of the fittest no longer applies to humans because there are people out there who have made rules that sets everyone equal to one another. Oh wait, that sounds like communism to me.
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Some parapelegics and elderly want to die, and are capable of making that rational decision for themselves, yet there are societal rules against physician assisted suicide. Why cant these people end their life and suffering on their own terms?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
I am pretty sure someone choosing to die is different than killing a newborn that has that choice taken from them. Assissited suicide is a tad bit different than forced death. Or am i missing the correlation here?
Hitler was man of the year BEFORE he started pressing forward his true agenda. that is a pathetic example.
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
According to the study that was published in the british scientific medical journal, they are arguing that euthanization of a newly born highly disabled baby with the parents concent is permissible under certain circumstances. Im just arguing their case, and doing a horrible job at that.
The only reason i brough up the physician assisted suicide is because you brought up ending the lives of parapelegics and the elderly, which has nothing to do with the article.
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Oh, and my statement about three time thieves, lifetime convicts and politicians was a joke. I hope you know that, right?
 

ironeagle2006

Active Member
Here is something to think about. In China the Most Oppressive nation on Human Rights we trade with has a One Child per Couple Policy. Now if a woman gets Pregnant with a second the State WILL FORCE HER TO HAVE AN ABORTION right up to the moment of Delivery. Now the Second that Child takes a Breath it is NO LONGER CONSIDERED A PIECE OF TISSUE BUT A LIVING MEMBER OF THE STATE AND WORTHY OF PROTECTION OF THE STATE. So think about this are we as a Nation and people heading to this way.
Sparta was a Warrior City State thru and Thru the ONLY 2 People that every got buried with a Tombstone in Sparta where Soldiers that DIED in BATTLE or a Woman that DIED IN CHILDBIRTH everyone else was buried in an unmarked grave. Spartans had rule for battle Come home carrying your Shield or ON IT nothing more never be captured alive. Remember something at Thermopolis the Total Greek force there was only 3000 Men total on land with 300 Spartans and they held for over 1 Week and they would have held longer if the Force holding the Back door had not folded when the Persians found it. We know the Spartans died there however the Persians lost an estimated 20-30K men plus with the 100 Ships Damistacles sunk also in that battle a lot of their supplies for the campaign.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
According to the study that was published in the british scientific medical journal, they are arguing that euthanization of a newly born highly disabled baby with the parents concent is permissible under certain circumstances. Im just arguing their case, and doing a horrible job at that.
The only reason i brough up the physician assisted suicide is because you brought up ending the lives of parapelegics and the elderly, which has nothing to do with the article.
I know part of your statement was a joke. I brought up ederly and paraplegics since you stated you felt it was ok to kill a child that made full term and birth. I ask what is the difference?
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396088/just-wow#post_3528479
According to the study that was published in the british scientific medical journal, they are arguing that euthanization of a newly born highly disabled baby with the parents concent is permissible under certain circumstances. Im just arguing their case, and doing a horrible job at that.
The only reason i brough up the physician assisted suicide is because you brought up ending the lives of parapelegics and the elderly, which has nothing to do with the article.
http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.full
I believe this is the article you are referring to. The journal is an academic exploration of ethics in science and medical communities.
This is an example of what happens when science advances with out a moral center at its backbone.
I remember reading materials involving experimenting on children right here in the USA. One of the most infamous occurred at a Staten Is. orphanage for mentally disabled children. Basically this place was a dungeon of neglect and abuse of these children and hygienically the kids were kept in deplorable sub-human levels. It was a given fact that any child placed at this facility was going to get hepatitis.
Enter science. In the 50s a study was conducted lasting 14 yrs at this orphanage. Young mentally disabled children were purposely injected with the hepatitis virus to study the progression of the disease, and to experiment using gamma globulin to see if it was an effective treatment. Parents who foolishly agreed to this did not know that it involved infecting their kids, but were told that the children who participated would get special treatment and better care. Now, of course, the justification of performing this morally vacant study was that these kids were going to get infected anyway due to the deplorable environment so no additional harm would occur to the children participating in the study, and, in fact, these kids would be getting a bit better treatment (so I guess they were doing the kids a favor).
It would be a good thing if this was the only such incidence of morally vacant studies in this country, but alas it is not.
Modern science has its roots in the early 20th century eugenics movement and this foundation is alive and kicking today in our scientific communities. That is why its ok to abort unborns who have medical or developmental disabilities. That is why it is especially good to abort children whose mothers or parents are lower income. And now, its ok to discuss the scientific ethics about it being ok to "abort" newborns who are sub-par. Eugenics lives on in the 21 century.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
I get the feeling that sooner or later nations are going to be faced with the tough decision of having to do this. My personal feeling is that we have already over populated the planet and there are simply not enough resources to go around for everyone at the rate we are consuming them which only grows more and more every year.
In nature things don't work this way. Only the strong survive while we continually push forth efforts to save the weak for reasons of morality.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
I get the feeling that sooner or later nations are going to be faced with the tough decision of having to do this. My personal feeling is that we have already over populated the planet and there are simply not enough resources to go around for everyone at the rate we are consuming them which only grows more and more every year.
In nature things don't work this way. Only the strong survive while we continually push forth efforts to save the weak for reasons of morality.
So we should debase ourselves to operating on a primal level? Then why create laws to "protect the innocent" from various things like murder, "corporate greed", food stamp and unemployment programs...etc.....etc....If we are willing to kill a different classification of innocents? Why is one senario worth protecting more so than another?
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

So we should debase ourselves to operating on a primal level? Then why create laws to "protect the innocent" from various things like murder, "corporate greed", food stamp and unemployment programs...etc.....etc....If we are willing to kill a different classification of innocents? Why is one senario worth protecting more so than another?
I'm not suggesting anything. Just pointing out what I see is all. Personally, I'm pro-choice up until a certain point. But the topic did raise some questions in my mind about the rate at which people are reproducing.
Take our nation for example. Are we better off with more or less dependants? Because it effects us ALL.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
If morality and conscience is taken from the equation, then survival of the fittest will kick back in. That is the reason for the one child limit in China. China is way way overpopulated. The government puts a limit on procreation.
Food stamps, nursing homes, free lunches, HUD, etc., etc., is all in place to assist those who can't take care of themselves. It is probably logical to think that the limit to social conscienceness is going to be necessary as the capable overwhelm the incapable.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
If morality and conscience is taken from the equation, then survival of the fittest will kick back in.  That is the reason for the one child limit in China.  China is way way overpopulated.  The government puts a limit on procreation.
Food stamps, nursing homes, free lunches, HUD, etc., etc., is all in place to assist those who can't take care of themselves.  It is probably logical to think that the limit to social conscienceness is going to be necessary as the capable overwhelm the incapable.
Can you clarify your statement. I am unclear on the point and stance you are taking.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I"m not taking a stance with that statement!
I'm posing a realistic outcome to the social conscientiousness we began in the 19th century which culminates in a condition today where we are approaching an overwhelming of the "haves" by the "have nots". This takes the form of massive support of populations ranging from complete support to some support. Welfare, food stamps, nursing homes, social services, medicaid, foreign aid to displaced, medically critical, or starving populations, etc.
Unless resources becomes infinite, it stands to reason that at some point as a society, we will either fail or change attitude regarding social conscentiousness. Do you see another outcome ?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
I"m not taking a stance with that statement!
I'm posing a realistic outcome to the social conscientiousness we began in the 19th century which culminates in a condition today where we are approaching an overwhelming of the "haves" by the "have nots".  This takes the form of massive support of populations ranging from complete support to some support.  Welfare, food stamps, nursing homes, social services, medicaid, foreign aid to displaced, medically critical, or starving populations, etc.
Unless resources becomes infinite, it stands to reason that at some point as a society, we will either fail or change attitude regarding social conscentiousness.  Do you see another outcome ?
What I am seeing is the creation of a Passively Selfish society in general. Resources play a factor in that. But in general it seems to be human Selfishness driving and creating these thoughts.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396088/just-wow#post_3528567
What I am seeing is the creation of a Passively Selfish society in general. Resources play a factor in that. But in general it seems to be human Selfishness driving and creating these thoughts.
To me it's a little bit bigger then that. But if not wanting to live in a country where the majority of it's people are living well below the poverty line or in 3rd world like conditions or having to depend so greatly on other nations for our own survival is considered selfish then I suppose I can live with that. I'm sure you've got plenty of room in your city and enough clean water to go around for anyone who want's to live there, no?
 
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