Just Wow!

[darthtang aw]

To me it's a little bit bigger then that.  But if not wanting to live in a country where the majority of it's people are living well below the poverty line or in 3rd world like conditions or having to depend so greatly on other nations for our own survival is considered selfish then I suppose I can live with that.  I'm sure you've got plenty of room in your city and enough clean water to go around for anyone who want's to live there, no?
The first part of your post is not what i am referring to. Abortion is 90% of the time a selfish act. The killing of a baby after it is born, full term, would be a selfish act. The people desiring healthcare he handled by the government because it would be "cheaper". Is selfish. The people not wanting to cut "benefits" to preserve the future of this country financially is selfish.
Overly bloated defense spending to maintain influence in other regions of the world just to acquire their resources and exploit the local is selfish. Buying a ridiculously large house for two people on government assistance is selfish. Using a government funded program to acquire an iphone is selfish.
This is what i mean by selfish. And the government is the most selfish of all. Lets use sequestration as an example. The president is so selfish he would rather close federal parks and historical tours that educate our society and children than accept the offer given to him to redirect spending cuts elsewhere.
Our society as whole has become selfish. As our selfishness increases the moral compass decays.
I can give an example. Some people shop locally to feel good about themselves and to support the community. Yet those same people complain that what they buy costs a tad bit more than the big boxes. Not realizing the reason for that is the local guys dont get to negotiate price reductions with the manufacturers as the cant buy in the quantities walmart can.
My grooming business hasnt had a price increase in 6 years. We had to do one as cost of goods went up for everything. Took a 45 dollar dog up to 47. A quarter of my customers said the people down the street do it for 25. I asked if they tried them and they said yes and the job they do isnt half as good as ours. So they want my level of quality and customer service for half ass work pricing. Selfishness.
I understand times are tough. But maybe. If people werent selfish. Times wouldnt be tough. Look what the selfishness of the unions and pension plans have done to detroit. Selfishness
Everyone always wants more. Every wants "their fair share". Problem is their fair share increases more and more over time.
Our country went to war and their was no sacrifice from the greater population to do so.
Sometimes i think it might be better to be a third world nation. May e then the population would appreciate the basics in life

 

[snakeblitz33]

As far as I am concerned, the Earth is well beyond it's human carrying capacity (K). Beth is right, eventually major issues like this will have to come into play. Eventually a bad season, a massive drought, land erosion, disease, war, famine, and a host of other human created problems such as running out of gas/oil will eventually cause the rapid decline in population back to carrying capacity (K) of the Earth that was sustained for millions of years. It wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that the population of the Earth was allowed to climb so high. Now, due to rapid growth, we are having growing pains... you can see that by looking at the economy, and the condition that the world is currently in.

 

[snakeblitz33]

I agree, Darth, we are a selfish nation.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396088/just-wow/20#post_3528614
I understand times are tough. But maybe. If people werent selfish. Times wouldnt be tough. Look what the selfishness of the unions and pension plans have done to detroit. Selfishness
Well it doesn't help when 40% of your cities population is technically considered illiterate (about the same rate as the Central African Rebublic). It made things very easy for the political class to take advantage of the cities people. And as long as those people are getting some type of aid then they are generally pretty happy. Practically every elected official that ever came through there in the last 50 years has had themselves a blast at the tax payers expense. For me it became pretty evident when dead strippers started showing up at the mayors mansion and then the case files were conveniently stolen from police department headquarters.
I'm not trying to live somewhere like that again. 3rd world style living isn't pretty and it brings lots of crime. And there is wher you will find your most extreme prejudices.
Working hard to be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor shouldn't be considered selfish. But to expect oranges, pears and plumbs simply for being born and having to work IMO, is not the logic we need here now.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396088/just-wow/20#post_3528619
It wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that the population of the Earth was allowed to climb so high.
And, is it a coincidence that it is during this time period that social conscientious gave birth? No, I don't think so. Before the the IR it was swim or sink. Survival of the fittest.
Communism was born from a philanthropic philosophy that all people should be economically equal. Nowadays, survival of the fittest applied to humans is viewed by Western peoples as unconscionable. Now, Western nations have allowed our government's the role of benevolent caretaker. Of course, the government's sole source of resources is money taxed away from citizens.
As to the morality of aborting severely disabled children. Its a hard thing to judge. Is it quite in the same category as aborting just because having a baby is inconvenient? If you embrace survival of the fittest, then abortion of a severely disabled fetus may be in keeping with the natural order of things. A working poor family who absolutely can not take care of a developmentally disabled person for its life are then going to burden society with the care of that person. There is no doubt about that whatsoever. Also, the developmentally disabled adult will mostly be relegated to a life that no one would ever want for themselves. I did work with developmentally disabled so I do have exp. with this issue.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Well, back to Hitler,... Social Darwinism.... survival of the fittest humans... this idea is not new. Are we looking at this topic as an individual or for the good of society? Most people in developed nations think about themselves before the good of the community.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396088/just-wow/20#post_3528649
Well, back to Hitler,... Social Darwinism.... survival of the fittest humans... this idea is not new. Are we looking at this topic as an individual or for the good of society? Most people in developed nations think about themselves before the good of the community.
Not really. We have been conditioned for 200 yrs to be conscientious about the care and needs of others. Heck, even this website is an example of that. We are conscientious hobbyists to the care and welfare of the sea creatures we keep. Religion has certainly played a roll in that, but now it is deeply ingrained into our society. Why else is most of your money spent on social welfare programs?
Hitler had some understanding of the problem facing a conscientious society, and he is a product of what was, at time, accepted scientific precepts---eugenics and Darwinism. He however, used those scientific philosophies to justify his very dark prejudices and megalomaniac view of the perfect society. Hitler, rather then having the solution, is the personified reason why government has absolutely no business in dictating the morality of a society.

 

[darthtang aw]

Not really.  We have been conditioned for 200 yrs to be conscientious about the care and needs of others.  Heck, even this website is an example of that.  We are conscientious hobbyists to the care and welfare of the sea creatures we keep.  Religion has certainly played a roll in that, but now it is deeply ingrained into our society.  Why else is most of your money spent on social welfare programs?
Hitler had some understanding of the problem facing a conscientious society, and he is a product of what was, at time,  accepted scientific precepts---eugenics and Darwinism.  He however, used those scientific philosophies  to justify his very dark prejudices and megalomaniac view of the perfect society.  Hitler, rather then having the solution, is the personified reason why government has absolutely no business in dictating the morality of a society.  
If government has no place dictating morality. Why create laws preventing murder, extortion, drug use, dwi, public fornication, and so on and so forth.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396088/just-wow/20#post_3528658
If government has no place dictating morality. Why create laws preventing murder, extortion, drug use, dwi, public fornication, and so on and so forth.
I knew would ask that!
Our government projects the morality of the people it represents. That is why abortion is legal though many oppose this. That is why we no longer keep slaves. That is why it is important to vote and do so informed.

 

[darthtang aw]

I knew would ask that!
Our government projects the morality of the people it represents.  That is why abortion is legal though many oppose this.  That is why we no longer keep slaves.  That is why it is important to vote and do so informed.
Of course you did. Which is why i stated it. But i expected a different response. Since i did not get that i will do so.
Or could it be........laws that do hold a moral basis actually accomplish maintaining order within society.....
Which brings my next question. Which is derived from the other? Societal order or morality? Without order i believe morality would still remain. But without morality would order remain?

 

[beth]

Morales are relative. Pre-Christian societies, such as Rome and Greece, certainly had right and wrong build in to their society, however, much of it would be unrecognizable or even abhorrent to us. Morality evolves and reflects what most of that society embraced. There is no doubt that the laws that reflect a society's moral base, does result in maintaining order. Morals, however, reflects many things in that society, such as religious beliefs and evolve over time.
Ask yourself. If Hitler had not invaded other countries, but still went forward with the genocide of Jews and perceived undesirables within Germany, would WW2 have happened? Germans as a whole knew what was going on; perhaps not every disgusting detail but they knew people were being rounded up, gotten rid of, never to be heard from again.
What does that say about the morality of Western countries, including us?

 

[darthtang aw]

WwMorales are relative.  Pre-Christian societies, such as Rome and Greece, certainly had right and wrong build in to their society, however, much of it would be unrecognizable or even abhorrent to us.  Morality evolves and  reflects what most of that society embraced.  There is no doubt that the laws that reflect a society's moral base, does result in maintaining order.  Morals, however, reflects many things in that society, such as religious beliefs and evolve over time.
Ask yourself.  If Hitler had not invaded other countries, but still went forward with the genocide of Jews and perceived undesirables within Germany, would WW2 have happened?  Germans as a whole knew what was going on; perhaps not every disgusting detail but they knew people were being rounded up, gotten rid of, never to be heard from again.
What does that say about the morality of Western countries, including us?
Hitler's regime did an impressive job on the german population. Jews were viewed as our modern day muslim extremists by the german population all based off government propoganda. The government set the moral path in this case. Which is why i feel goverments should err on the side of caution when it comes to moral issues. Showing any support for actions potentially viewed as immoral is just openning pathways.......
As to whether ww2 would have still happenned. The italians and japanese were still a huge key in that conflict.

 

[beth]

While what you say about the government propaganda is certainly true, the European Jews were not by any stretch the same as Muslim extremists and nor were they viewed the same by the non-Jew population as we view Muslim terrorists. The Jews didn't kill others or bomb buildings, they did proclaim that the Germans were the enemy that needed to be wiped out. They lived peacefully alongside non Jews and were productive members of the society. In fact they were as German as their persecutors.
The propaganda worked because it was supported by the people. Hitler didn't hypnotize the German people in to supporting him or embracing his ideology. He was supported and idolized by the people of Germany. Why else did Germans move in to houses or businesses as soon as their Jewish neighbors were rounded up in front of them and hauled off to livestock cars destined for concentration camps? Every German knew what was going on and most agreed with it. There were some who did not, and there were some that risked their own lives to help Jews escape the death camps.
Our government does not propagandize the genocide of an entire people. Actually, they go out of the way to separate terrorists from the Muslim population in general.

 

[darthtang aw]

While what you say about the government propaganda is certainly true, the European Jews were not by any stretch the same as Muslim extremists and nor were they viewed the same by the non-Jew population as we view Muslim terrorists.  The Jews didn't kill others or bomb buildings, they did proclaim that the Germans were the enemy that needed to be wiped out.  They lived peacefully alongside non Jews and were productive members of the society.  In fact they were as German as their persecutors.
The propaganda worked because it was supported by the people.  Hitler didn't hypnotize the German people in to supporting him or embracing his ideology.  He was supported and idolized by the people of Germany.  Why else did Germans move in to houses or businesses as soon as their Jewish neighbors were rounded up in front of them and hauled off to livestock cars destined for concentration camps?  Every German knew what was going on and most agreed with it.  There were some who did not, and there were some that risked their own lives to help Jews escape the death camps.
Our government does not propagandize the genocide of an entire people.  Actually, they go out of the way to separate terrorists from the Muslim population in general.
When I mean viewed the same. I am referring to the government using them as "the greatest threat to the population" at the time.
Once in power, Hitler used his position to launch a campaign against the Jews that culminated in the Holocaust.
Hitler blamed the Jews for all the misfortunes that had befallen Germany
the loss of the First World War was the result of a Jewish conspiracy
the Treaty of Versailles was also a Jewish conspiracy designed to bring Germany to her knees
the hyperinflation of 1923 was the result of an international Jewish attempt to destroy Germany
During the time when Weimar Germany was seemingly recovering under Stresseman, what Hitler said about the Jews remained nonsense listened to by only the few - hence his poor showing at elections prior to the 1929 Depression. During the impact of the Great Depression, though, when people became unemployed and all looked helpless, Hitler's search for a scapegoat proved a lot more fruitful.
After January 1933, the Jews became the "Untermenschen" - the sub-humans. Nazi thugs stopped Germans from shopping in Jewish shops. By 1934, all Jewish shops were marked with the yellow Star of David or had the word "Juden" written on the window. SA men stood outside the shops to deter anyone from entering. This was not necessarily a violent approach to the Jews - that was to come later - but it was an attempt to economically bankrupt them and destroy what they had spent years building up.
On buses, trains and park benches, Jews had to sit on seats marked for them. Children at schools were taught specifically anti-Semitic ideas. Jewish school children were openly ridiculed by teachers and the bullying of Jews in the playground by other pupils went unpunished. If the Jewish children responded by not wanting to go to school, then that served a purpose in itself and it also gave the Nazi propagandists a reason to peddle the lie that Jewish children were inherently lazy and could not be bothered to go to school.
In 1935, the Nuremberg Laws were passed. The Jews lost their right to be German citizens and marriage between Jews and non-Jews was forbidden. It was after this law that the violence against the Jew really openly started. Those that could pay a fine were allowed to leave the country. Many could not and many shops refused to sell food to those who remained. Medicines were also difficult to get hold of as chemists would not sell to Jews.
The campaign against the Jews stopped for a short duration during the Berlin Olympics - but once the overseas press had gone, it started up again. It reached a pre-war peak in 1938 with Krystalnacht - The Night of the Broken Glass.
In November 1938, a Nazi 'diplomat' was shot dead by a Jew in Paris. Hitler ordered a seven day campaign of terror against the Jews in Germany to be organised by Himmler and the SS. On the 10th November, the campaign started. 10,000 shops owned by Jews were destroyed and their contents stolen. Homes and synagogues were set on fire and left to burn. The fire brigades showed their loyalty to Hitler by assuming that the buildings would burn down anyway, so why try to prevent it? A huge amount of damage was done to Jewish property but the Jewish community was ordered to pay a one billion mark fine to pay for the eventual clear-up. Jews were forced to scrub the streets clean.
The Second World War - and the chaos this brought - gave Hitler even more freedom to bring death and destruction to Jewish communities throughout Europe.
Historians are still divided over whether the Germans supported these Nazi actions or whether fear made them turn a blind eye. In the immediate aftermath of Krystalnacht, an anonymous German wrote to the British Consul in Cologne stating that "The German people have nothing whatsoever to do with these riots and burnings." Christopher Isherwood, a British writer living in Germany, witnessed the arrest of a Jew in a cafe by the SA where everybody simply looked away - but to create a scene would have provoked a violent response from those doing the arresting. The fear of the concentration camps was such that most felt compelled to remain silent despite the fact that they did not approve of what was going on.
Now that I think about it, it sounds closer to our segregation era................

 

[beth]

At best Germans went along with it. In the cities it was completely obvious that Jews were being rounded up. It was also obvious that non-Jews quickly (overnight) would take possession of their former homes and businesses.
Hitler had an amazing propaganda machine going for him, but it would not have been so effective without a society inclined to hate a particular group of people. We did something akin to this by rounding up Japanese-Americans during WW2. However, at least then, we did have a reason to fear Japanese people, same with Muslims now.
Are you thinking Hitler would still accomplish what he did without the support of the populace? He introduced the hate, and it was embraced. Back to the point. Society sets the morals. In 1930s Germany, the morals of the society was that Jews were rats and sub human and they should be suppressed and removed from non-Jewish societies for the betterment of Germanic peoples. Everyone knew they were being removed from Germany. Maybe not death camps, but they knew they were being deported out of Germany and segregated. And the society approved as a whole.
Your argument is that government sets the moral standard for the masses. Yeah, maybe. But not without a receptive populace. The same can be said of the Continental Congress! Was the morals set forth in our Constitution thrust upon us or imposed upon us by our government?

 

[2quills]

Now that I think about it, it sounds closer to our segregation era................
More like what happened to the Native American's if you ask me. We're still paying on that bill as well. Savages!

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396088/just-wow/20#post_3528809
More like what happened to the Native American's if you ask me. We're still paying on that bill as well. Savages!
Yes, that too. That was basically the same principal as what happened to European Jews under Hitler. And guess who agreed with that too?

 

[2quills]

Yes, that too.  That was basically the same principal as what happened to European Jews under Hitler.  And guess who agreed with that too?
Must have been Darth's kin folk. Mine weren't here yet haha.
Hey, it's not like my Irish ancestors had it easy when they arrived in this country. They were coming from some of the most deplorable conditions on the planet. Facing extreme famine and oppression in Ireland they arrived here and were considered to be sub human as well and very much so were disciminated against. They had to claw their way from the bottom and earn their place in the history of this nation just as much as anyone.
Seems to be a reacuring theme going on here that has more to do with human nature more so than skin color.

 

[darthtang aw]

At best Germans went along with it. In the cities it was completely obvious that Jews were being rounded up.  It was also obvious that non-Jews quickly (overnight) would take possession of their former homes and businesses.  
Hitler had an amazing propaganda machine going for him, but it would not have been so effective without a society inclined to hate a particular group of people.  We did something akin to this by rounding up Japanese-Americans during WW2.  However, at least then, we did have a reason to fear Japanese people, same with Muslims now.
Are you thinking Hitler would still accomplish what he did without the support of the populace?   He introduced the hate, and it was embraced.  Back to the point.  Society sets the morals.  In 1930s Germany, the morals of the society was that Jews were rats and sub human and they should be suppressed and removed from non-Jewish societies for the betterment of Germanic peoples.  Everyone knew they were being removed from Germany.    Maybe not death camps, but they knew they were being deported out of Germany and segregated.  And the society approved as a whole.
Your argument is that government sets the moral standard for the masses.  Yeah, maybe.  But not without a  receptive populace.  The same can be said of the Continental Congress!  Was the morals set forth in our Constitution thrust upon us or imposed upon us by our government?
I don't think it was a german hatred for the jews that enabled it. As Jews had been in german and operating successfull for many years before. The populace never made any indication then. In fact german jews served in the first world war in the German Army.
Everyone wants a scapegoat. Their misfortunes must be the fault of someone else. Germany was in huge depression/poverty/squaler. Germany was relying on Foreign aid at the time as well. The population was looking for someone else to blame and Hitler gave it to them. Had Hitler not came to power and someone else did and placed the blame on the English, the result would have been the same. The people under government are always willing to blame someone else for their problems.....Hitler just happened to be anti-sematic and very charismatic.....
Charisma and an agenda are a bad combinition or a good combination. One just needs to only look at our own present government to see what I mean.
Must have been Darth's kin folk. Mine weren't here yet haha.
I am part native American.
Darth (Need help with that foot?) Tang

 

[darthtang aw]

Yes, that too.  That was basically the same principal as what happened to European Jews under Hitler.  And guess who agreed with that too?
What was done to the American Indian was not done in the public eye or campaign on. Policy wasn't publicly debated. Government just did it.