Kordon's Ich Attack

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Jmick
Very well said! Also, I think it’s a reasonable assumption to say that it’s marketing and not a group of engineers/scientists that come up with these products that offer zero value to consumers. I tend to believe that most of these types of products are garbage and we shouldn’t waste our money on them. A better investment would be a small QT tank so you could treat your infected fish with copper or better yet, QT all new fish before introducing them to the main tank.
I guess they hide the ingredients as they want to keep this new discovery a secret. Sorta like Bush's Baked Beans...only the dog knows that list of ingredients and he's not talking.

 

[ezee]

Hey all,
its called technology,,, i know you are very well educated, but they fkn put pig hearts in people now, we can clone animals... and yet there will never be a cure for ich????
come on.............................................

Somebody once said never say never.
I was reading what was said and I am not sure that anyone is saying that there will never be a cure, just that this particular stuff does not work. I agree that testing, accurate reporting and disclosure are necessary whenever dealing with any sort of chemical compound that makes any sort of positive health claim (human or fish!). It just makes sense. The fact that these manufacturers don't say what is in the meds is even more concerning. I, for one, know that I would never take a pill that just claimed it did something without even listing the ingredients.
To be fair, I do think it is possible that we may one day have an effective target chemical treatment that is safe for other things in our tank. But I have not seen evidence of that today.
JMO though.
E

 

[jerthunter]

I want to reply to some of the claims and arugements against this product but I do not want to get drawn into an argument because it is percieved that I support this product. I do not support this product. So to prevent misunderstanding I shall stop now.

 

[scubadoo]

I have never said there will never be a cure where parasites will be killed while other inverts will not. based on CURRENT science...this is not the case. Unless one of these so-called miracle cures have discovered somthing new ....their claims are hot air.
As long as hobbyisits continue to purchse the product(s) there is no motivation for R&D by these companies.
The only PROVEN methods to kill parasites are hypo and copper each having pros and cons with hypo being a better method. Both proven methods also will kill all other inverts. This is what makes the claims of these products defie logic...the only methods PROVEN will kill ALL inverts. So how can these products make these claims? No science to support the position...no studies..ZERO. They bring nothing to the table, and place a big price on some of these products. It is a rip-off, scam, etc.
Those that use these so-called miracle cures and have success simply draw a coorelation ...I added the voodoo mixture to my tank and my fish got better. In all likelihood the eveiornmentel condition that led to the outbreak improved or the fish immune system got stronger or stress was reduced..all factors that can lead to outbreak if the disease is present in the system.
There is currently no=zero=none=doesn't currently exist product/additive that will kill one invert and leave all others alone. it may exist one day...but today, such claims defie logic based on the "known".
If ANYONE beleives there is something in this colored water that works...please post the ingredient(s) in the product(s) along with the science and studies to support the claim. Or, call the manufacturer and ask them to provide the information.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by Jerthunter
I want to reply to some of the claims and arguments against this product but I do not want to get drawn into an argument because it is percieved that I support this product. I do not support this product. So to prevent misunderstanding I shall stop now.

Why in the world would you want to "reply to some of the claims and arguments against this product"?? Do you sell it or make it? What is the motivation for your arguement? Have you tried it 10 times and found it to be effective? If so, please fess up your test results so the rest of us who deal with fish diseases don't continue to make a fool of ourselves arguing against it.
I really don't want to argue for the sake of arguing, or even for intellectual discussion [unless there are facts to support it], because there are so many on this BB who come here every single day with an ich problem who need to know how to save their fish/or their whole tank. Threads such as this, that promote herbals endanger other hobbyists' systems.
Just because someone here gets their supplements at the health food store, doesn't mean that it is good for fish. Fish come from the ocean, not the land, and there will be very few things on land that occur naturally that benefit fish. Garlic, of course, being the exception to that, as well as copper.
If there is ever a reef safe med that is effective and safe, I will be the FIRST here to promote it.

 

[jerthunter]

Originally Posted by Beth
Why in the world would you want to "reply to some of the claims and arguments against this product"?? Do you sell it or make it? What is the motivation for your arguement? Have you tried it 10 times and found it to be effective? If so, please fess up your test results so the rest of us who deal with fish diseases don't continue to make a fool of ourselves arguing against it.
I really don't want to argue for the sake of arguing, or even for intellectual discussion [unless there are facts to support it], because there are so many on this BB who come here every single day with an ich problem who need to know how to save their fish/or their whole tank. Threads such as this, that promote herbals endanger other hobbyists' systems.
Just because someone here gets their supplements at the health food store, doesn't mean that it is good for fish. Fish come from the ocean, not the land, and there will be very few things on land that occur naturally that benefit fish. Garlic, of course, being the exception to that, as well as copper.
If there is ever a reef safe med that is effective and safe, I will be the FIRST here to promote it.

I am getting the feeling that people don't read what I write. No I don't make sell this product, nor to I make it. I am not argueing for the product however I do not understand the arguements that are made against this product as well as pretty much every product on the market other then copper. I have not used the product and if I had used it 10 times I would be worried, I hope that I am careful enough not to encounter ich any more times in my life. I do not have the time or money to set up a scientific study for this, it is not my duty and since I would not even endorse this product I have no motivation to test it. My problem with the arguements agianst this product is that the majority of them are severly flawed. In my past posts I have tried to only point out these flaws without making any claims of my own. Since I have made no claims either to the effectiveness or the ineffectiveness of this product there is nothing for me to prove. This thread does not appear to me to be supporting this product it was started by a person asking a question and the first few replies I have no problem with. People gave their personal experiences both positive and negative. I have no problem with people sharing their personal experiences, I actually think that is great. However I do have a problem with people stating that there is no way it could work and be reef safe, or that it can't work because it is not normally found in the ocean, or that it can't work because they don't tell us the ingredients. These claims are just as unscientific as the claims the products make, there is no backing to either claim. I am not going to continue this anymore, write what you will, read half of what I say and take it out of context if you like, I do not care to waste anymore time on this. I hope in the future I can resist the urge to point out severly flawed arguements and claims so that I do not have to constantly try to explain myself.
Goodbye

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Jerthunter
I am getting the feeling that people don't read what I write. No I don't make sell this product, nor to I make it. I am not argueing for the product however I do not understand the arguements that are made against this product as well as pretty much every product on the market other then copper. I have not used the product and if I had used it 10 times I would be worried, I hope that I am careful enough not to encounter ich any more times in my life. I do not have the time or money to set up a scientific study for this, it is not my duty and since I would not even endorse this product I have no motivation to test it. My problem with the arguements agianst this product is that the majority of them are severly flawed. In my past posts I have tried to only point out these flaws without making any claims of my own. Since I have made no claims either to the effectiveness or the ineffectiveness of this product there is nothing for me to prove. This thread does not appear to me to be supporting this product it was started by a person asking a question and the first few replies I have no problem with. People gave their personal experiences both positive and negative. I have no problem with people sharing their personal experiences, I actually think that is great. However I do have a problem with people stating that there is no way it could work and be reef safe, or that it can't work because it is not normally found in the ocean, or that it can't work because they don't tell us the ingredients. These claims are just as unscientific as the claims the products make, there is no backing to either claim. I am not going to continue this anymore, write what you will, read half of what I say and take it out of context if you like, I do not care to waste anymore time on this. I hope in the future I can resist the urge to point out severly flawed arguements and claims so that I do not have to constantly try to explain myself.
Goodbye
These products simply do not work. If you care to devote the time, do some reserch on other sites and see what other recognized advanced hobbyists, experts and aquarists have to say regarding the voodoo mixtures.
ALL the claims I make concenring hyposilinity and copper are proven. ALL of the other products provide ZERO science to dcoment claims. Please point out based on proven science and known documentation where I am wrong.
Your problem is you bring NOTHING to the table...and claim those that do are unscientific?

 

[ezee]

Jerthunter,
Whoa! I don't think anyone is trying to piss you off and I apologize if what I said did. Please don't take it the wrong way, I was just stating my opinion. Nor did I perceive you to be overly defensive on the part of these products.
However I do have a problem with people stating that there is no way it could work and be reef safe, or that it can't work because it is not normally found in the ocean, or that it can't work because they don't tell us the ingredients. These claims are just as unscientific as the claims the products make, there is no backing to either claim.
I agree that there is no evidence for or against, that's actually my point. If I have no evidence that the stuff works or doesn't work, is safe or not safe, I would just not feel comfortable using it. I think a lot of people (not necessarily yourself) get caught up in the claims these companies make, we should encourage them to question, as opposed to being led around by packaging.
Its all good, man. We all just want to save fishy lives! Even know-nothings like myself!
Later
E

 

[jerthunter]

I guess I lied, I will reply once again, because it appears once again I have not been clear enough.
At no time have I made any claims regarding whether this or any medication works, I have mentioned repeatedly that I do not have any information on that topic to bring to the table. I would love to have nothing better to do with my money and time then to do research for other people but unfortunately I have other commitments and I have learned that people will only hear what they want to hear so it would be a waste of my time to research the validity of any ich medication for anything other then my personal use.
I try to be as clear as possible, I make no claims saying that hyposalinty or copper will not work. I am a huge supporter of using proper quarentine methods and hyposalinty. My problem as I have pointed out atleast twice is when people say that there is no way this could work and their reason is how can it kill ich and not kill invertabrates. This is a horrible arguement, if you can't see the difference between an invertabrate animal and a parasitic protista then I suppose this reasoning could make sense to you.
It bothers me that when one person asks a question only a few people offer their personal experiences and the rest just repeat something they heard or read somewhere else online. I am not making any claims as to there not being any scientific evidence as to the effectiveness of copper or hyposalinity for treating saltwater ich. I do not know where anyone would get that idea from anything I have said but to make sure I am being clear I shall repeat myself. I am not here to refute any scientific evidence concerning the effectiveness of copper or hyposalinity as a treatment of ich. What I do find totally unscientific and distrubing is the outright claims that No it won't work or that it there is no way it could work with nothing to back up this claim other then flawed arguements. If you have a personal experience then by all means let us know. If you had ich, used the product and all your fish died say so or vice versa if you used it and suddenly the ich was gone say so! If you have a study that proves it works then mention it. I do not believe there is such a study but I won't say there isn't because I have not read every single scientific study there is. If you have a study that proves it doesn't work mention it too, once again I do not know of such a study. It does not matter to me how long someone has been taking care of fish or how much of an expert they are considered their opinon is still that, just opinion. So if an expert tells me there is no way a product will work I will value their opinion but I also understand it is still just opinion and not scientific evidence. If an expert says it won't work because it is impossible to kill one type of organism while not harming another I would lose respect for this expert and wonder how he became an expert in this field without understanding the major differences between organisms from different kindoms.
I am sure I have already mentioned that I am not making any claims either for or against the validity of any ich treatment, if I was I would be sure to specify if my view was based upon personal experience, opinion or scientific fact. Of course since I am not making any claims I have no reason to need to supply any scientific evidence.
I really do not know how to make this any clearer, I do not support Ich attack or any other ich medication for that matter. My opinion is that it won't work but my opinion is of little value to anyone interested in this product. I just cannot understand how someone can see a person with a question about a product and give some absurd explaination of why it won't work that has no basis. If you try it and it didn't work by all means PLEASE tell us but don't just say it won't work because you don't know the ingredients. If someone mentions that they used it and it seemd to work for them, take that for what it is worth.
If you have read this far I thank you and reward you with random graphics.
:joy:

:jumping: :hilarious :happyfish
Oh and ezee nothing you said bothered me. :cheer:

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Jerthunter
I I guess it just kind of bothers me when I see this claim that there is no possible way to target only one organism.
And here is your problem...I have never said no way...I have simply stated that currently, the only PROVEN additive that is effective against ich is copper...which will kill ALL inverts.
For ANY manufacturer to state that their product is reef safe..and will still kill ich has no basis in science TODAY and they provide ZERO proof. They provide no documented studies and their claims are not supported by science as it pertains to ich in a closed marine system.
Therefore, these products DEFIE logic baed on known science TODAY. I could care less if you respect my opiinion. But please do not take what I say and twist it to fit your own agenda or your own personal crusade.
Perhaps in the future an additive may be discovered...until such time...these product are baseless, colored water that rip people off. Some of them are quite pricey too.

 

[darth tang]

Scuba you are missing the point Jer is trying to make....which I have to agree to an extent. If you have no experience with the product, how can you say it doesn't work or won't work. That is all.
It is like telling people a candy bar tastes good, even though you have never tasted it. You are going off of general consensus and not your own experiences. Jer is just stating people with experience in the product would be better suited to answer the question brought forth than those that have never dealt with it.

 

[jerthunter]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
Scuba you are missing the point Jer is trying to make....which I have to agree to an extent. If you have no experience with the product, how can you say it doesn't work or won't work. That is all.
It is like telling people a candy bar tastes good, even though you have never tasted it. You are going off of general consensus and not your own experiences. Jer is just stating people with experience in the product would be better suited to answer the question brought forth than those that have never dealt with it.
Thank you Darth Tang! and Scuba I am sorry you feel that I am twisting anything you say, I never quoted you and I never pointed you out because what I was saying was not directed at you. I have never said that I do not respect your opinion. All I have been trying to do is get people to focus on what they know or have experiences rather then what they do not know. My point is that the lack of evidence to something is in no way proof that it does not work. Just because I do not know the ingredients to Kordon's Ich Attack is no reason for me to say it will not work. I would love to see research done on this product but I think we have already come to a conclusion that it will probably never happen. The manufacture has no motivation to prove anything, they only care to sell the product and us as consumers do not have the obligation to perform scientific studies concerning this product. That being said there will probably not be any scientific studies for or against this product in my lifetime. The means all we have to go on is other people's experiences. That is why a forum is so useful, if there is no scientific data on a certain thing atleast we have a large pool of people who can share their personal experiences.
Scuba I never put words in your mouth, I said that someone had made the arguement that "How can it be selective and kill ICH but not inverts This gets brought up atleast twice a week. There is NO miracle cure for ICH.. Hyposalinity or Copper. 2 choices!" This was not you Scuba this came from another user, I purposely did not call out a specific person because I do not want to make them feel as if I am targeting them. Infact I am pretty certain the only people I mentioned in prior replies were Beth and Ezee. I mentioned Beth because I agreed with a point she made so I said I agree with what Beth said about.... and then later I replied to her question as to why I am replying to this. I mentioned Ezee because ezee had posted saying he(sorry I hope you're a he ezee, if not don't take offense) hoped I wasn't bothered by what he had said. Of course now I have mentioned a ton of names. I mean no disrespect to anyone here, I am just trying to get the focus back on a track that can be beneficial to everyone. If I ever use this product I will post my results so hopefully others can benefit from my experience.
I understand the fact that there are proven methods out there, I wish there was more scientific data for all of us involved in this hobby but unfortunatly do to the nature of this being a hobby there is not that much of a demand for extensive scientific research and often times we must rely on information that is not proven with any scientific study. Much of the scientific data we get comes from research done on marine enviroments but due to the rare occurance of saltwater ich in an ocean enviroment the need for scientific research into this matter is primarily only driven by the need of the hobby. If we waited for others to do scientific research before we do anything with this hobby we would be far far behind where we are in this hobby today.

 

[ezee]

Jerthunter,
No offense, you got it right. LOL!!!
Humanoid Male.
E

 

[jerthunter]

Originally Posted by ezee
Jerthunter,
No offense, you got it right. LOL!!!
Humanoid Male.
E
Cool, I got something right!!

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Scuba I never put words in your mouth, I said that someone had made the arguement that "How can it be selective and kill ICH but not inverts This gets brought up atleast twice a week. There is NO miracle cure for ICH.. Hyposalinity or Copper. 2 choices!" This was not you Scuba this came from another user,.
.
I suggest you revist threads you have commented on pertaining to my past comments plus numerous threads I have posted.......you will see those are my exact words and they are quite true based on known effwective approaches. There is some specualtion regarding garlic but there is simply not enough hard evidence and/or controlled experimants to document claims. Of all the so-called alternative treatments, tis one is the most interesting.
I believe their is a benefit to garlic approach, but I cannot prove it works so I do not include it as a third documeted effective treatment. There are no reports of garlic soaked food used in modest amounts fouling water are causing problems that I am aware of.
not only have I stated the products do not work, I have attempted to state exactly why. No, I have NEVER used this product for three reasons 1) Based on known science and studies the only additive effective against ich is copper...this means the product logically cannt work based on known science. today This does not mean something will not work in the future. 2) I would never open a container and dump somethng in a closed marine system where contents are unknown and/or advise someone to do so. 3) I would need to read results from numerous sources along with documeted studies that some discovery ha been made. ...I doubt it would be a 'secret".
My goal here is to hopefully prevent someone from spending hard earned money on colored water and losing valuable treatment time waiting for the mircale liquid product to work.
I have no reason to use something based on the above. If a product comes along where the claim is DOCUMENTED...I'll be right there SCREAMING to use it.
I have been in this hobby for 30 plus years and have made ALL the mistakes. I am hoping I can stiop other folks for going down the same paths. I have tried many of these so-called wonder liquids and they were ALL ineffective. My hope is that I can prevent a few folks from waisitng time and money. But it is just my opinion...but it is informed.
And by the way...marine ich is not a RARE occurance in the ocean. Where do you think it comes from? It is the 'closed' system where it can easily find a host and mutilpy quickly to deadly levels.
There are many conditions that can lead to the disease improving once manifested...including effective treatment Most ich outbreaks (if presnt in the sytem) are caused by overcrowding, poor water quality, stress (many contributors), weakened immune systems, constant temp fluctuations of more than two degrees and poor diet. If one or any combination of the previous listing is present along with the disease an outbreak most likely will occur. Once this happens, someone may add one of these miracle cures and all of a sudden the disease appears to go away. So a coorelation is drawn that I used this product so it did the job. Most likely, one or a combination of contibuting factors existed....then improved and the disease appeared to lessen. Hence, the hobbyists claims the product worked.>
This leads to a misdiagnosis of a system...meaning you may still have a problem and one or more of the contributing factors could return along with the disease....as it is still present.
If folks simply stopped buying the miracle cures manufacturers would suffer and perhaps then you would see some research and development.
You first have to understand the disease, the evviornmental conditions that can cause and outbreak, and then select the most effective treatment avialable. This leaves but two options...copper or hyposalinity with hypo being a wiser choice.
Yes, no mircale cure exists on the market today that will kill one invert and leave ALL others unharmed.
It would be irresopnsible for me to promote such garbage as effective. ..with only hot air to back it up. Such a claim as reef safe by the producers of these products is simple "puffery".

 

[jerthunter]

Scuba,
First I am unsure of what you are saying are your words? The quote I included in my last reply came from another user, cut and paste. I think it is important to point out the major flaw in that arguement. Maybe understanding the major differences in organisms is of more importance to me then others but I would hate for people to think that marine ich is an invertabrate animal, it is not, it is a protista.
Second, I find it hard to believe you will not use anything for your fish without reading results from numerous sources along with documeted studies that some discovery has been made. If this is true I commend you, you must be a very well read individual. I would imagine however that you would be in a very slim minority of people, the rest of us tend to get out information for other hobbiest, the internet, and books that despite being well written and full of useful information do not qualify as scientific data. I Have done searchs online and come up empty handed when it comes to finding legitimate scientific data.
Third, I must commend you on your desire to help others. I appreciate that and anytime the topic of ich comes up I would agree with you and point the person in the correct direction and tell them to read about hyposalinity and encourage them to set up a QT. I also understand that sometimes things happen, people get to many fish to fast, they were not imformed about quarinting their fish and they suddenly have a problem. Sometimes setting up a QT is not an option. Maybe the individual just sunk all their money into a huge 300 gal tank full of live rock, invertabrates and fish. One of their fish gets ich and they suddenly freak out. In this situation they probably already have too many fish and even if they could catch all of them without wreaking havoc on their already strained system they would not have an adequate QT for them. They have an option, hope the fish gets better on its own, use copper and destory all their live rock and invertabrates or seek out other viable options. At this point the option of one of these miracle solutions looks very inviting. Wasting $4.04 (I saw it at a fish store the other day) for a bottle of colored water that probably won't work doesn't seem like that bad of a gamble. I would never advise anyone to use this product however I know people have and will continue to use it so I would like to see what people's results are. Data collection is a valuable part of any scientific research and so maybe with enough people giving their personal experiences and trend can be reconized that will be beneficial to us as a whole.
Fifth, I am concerned as to where you get your information that marine ich is not a rare occurance in the ocean. The reason it is a rare occurance is because the ocean is a much larger system then any sized aquarium. Ich thrives in the small closed enviroments we keep our fish in but it does not THRIVE in the ocean. Yes it is present in the ocean and it hitches its way into our aquariums where suddenly it becomes a major problem. My point in what I was saying is that in the ocean it is not the same problem it is in our tanks therefore little focus is spent on focusing on marine ich in the ocean. So I continue to consider marine ich to be a minor problem and a rare occurance in the ocean.
Sixth, no one is asking you to support this product. I have stated numerous times that I have no opinion either way when it comes to this product. I would not recommend it to anyone because I have no reason to. I would not tell anyone that it does not work because I have no experience with it either. It does not make any sense to me why you would tell people it does not work and the only reason you give is that you have not seen any scientific documentation saying it does work. A lack of documentation does not necessarily mean that there is nothing to document.
Seventh, If by some miracle you could reach every hobbiest in the world and were able to convince them to boycot this product the company would probably just stop making the product. If another miracle happened and the company decided to conduct a scientific study and post the results we would find ourselves waiting quite awhile before any significant results would arise and by then I am sure the cost of the resultant product would be far more then $4.04.
I really hope I have addressed everything in your past reply but if not please feel free to let me know and I will try again.

 

[beth]

It would be an error to leave behind the impression that copper or hyposalinity is anything less than a scientifically proven method for treating ich. It is a proven method and there is not debate with that. It has been tested, there are published documents regarding both procedures. Both are considered the best methods for treating ich.
And there is plenty of anecdotal evidence negating the effectiveness of herbal "reef safe" products to tell any reasonable hobbyist seeking help with ich, to avoid these products.
Hunter if you like to just debate this, ok, its a fun debate, but if you've backed yourself into a corner and feel the need to defend yourself, there is nothing bad about just leaving the argument/debate, like you have said you were going to do. I leave debates all the time and still keep face.
There are no people more passionate than those of us with our fish tanks and this topic certainly proves that!

 

[beth]

Actually ich is pretty common with reef fish, which is why we keep getting ich in our tanks!
The reason that ich is not a problem with fish in the ocean, is not because fish don't get ich or that ich is so rare, it is because of the nature of the parasite itself. The beauty of nature has created a symbiotic relationship between fish and parasite so that both can live without the host being sacrificed. This is what most well-formed pathogens/parasites hope to achieve [in nature] since a killer-parasite would soon kill off its source of food. Since ich has a 3 stage life cycle, only 1 of which is it attached to fish, in the ocean, an infected fish is able to escape the parasite once it has dropped off [ending the infestation for that fish].
As you pointed out, within the unnatural confines of an enclosed aquaria, ich has ready access to fish, and the host fish has no means of escape...he can not just swim away as he does in nature.

 

[jerthunter]

Originally Posted by Beth
It would be an error to leave behind the impression that copper or hyposalinity is anything less than a scientifically proven method for treating ich. It is a proven method and there is not debate with that. It has been tested, there are published documents regarding both procedures. Both are considered the best methods for treating ich.
And there is plenty of anecdotal evidence negating the effectiveness of herbal "reef safe" products to tell any reasonable hobbyist seeking help with ich, to avoid these products.
Hunter if you like to just debate this, ok, its a fun debate, but if you've backed yourself into a corner and feel the need to defend yourself, there is nothing bad about just leaving the argument/debate, like you have said you were going to do. I leave debates all the time and still keep face.
There are no people more passionate than those of us with our fish tanks and this topic certainly proves that!

Beth, the only reason I continue this is because I do not like being misunderstood. I have nothing to debate. As for why I've continued to reply after saying I was going to leave, you're right I should have just left but I felt I was being misunderstood and I choose to make myself a liar so that I could try and clarify my point. I appreciate all the help that I get from this board, be it scientifically back, or just people's experiences. I do not wish to give anyone the impression that I support using the product vice using the proper proven effective methods. I am passionate about this because I believe it is important for people to share their experiences without being told that they mean nothing. Every experience means something and I would like to encourage anyone who has used a product such as this to share their experiences be they postivie negative or undetermined. I do not wish to debate anyone on this topic, maybe in my younger years I would have but now I lack the energy required to properly support or refute the benefits of this products. I only wish to ensure a clean fight so to speak.
As to the rarity of ich in the ocean I was trying to get to the same point as both Beth and Scuba pointed out. It is not the same problem in the ocean as it is in an aquarium.

 

[beth]

Here is the problem that I perceive with this level of "sharing". People who come here, or any forum, with an ich problem are desperately looking for a solution. They are upset, they are scared, they are fearful that they are going to have a disaster on their hands and they have good reason to fear because they do have a big problem.
They see something that says reef safes "may" work, and see other hobbyists suggesting that they may work. Bang. That person, who would rather give up their first born rather than have to dismantle their reef tank to QT fish [ok, I'm exaggerating about the "first born" but not by much. LOL], reads that and breaths a sigh of relief. The answer is in a bottle and the bottle is "reef safe". They use it. It doesn't work and now all their fish are still sick and worse, or all the fish have been wiped out, dead. Useless. The tank crashes because of the fish death, and possible because of an unknown medication that has been added to the aquaria.
As hobbyists in the open forums we have a responsibility to deal with certain subjects, life and death subjects, in ways that take into acct more than just a "fun debate" or idle discussion. In this case, causal remakes about herbals could result in disaster for an unsuspecting hobbyist.
Of course I am aware of all the methods [effective and not effective] of addressing ich, including pepper, garlic, daily water changes and even ginger! Someone shoot me if I start taking about ginger in the Disease Forum though. I don't want any hobbyist to come away with any treatment option except what works. Hyposalinity is the best treatment we have for ich, and it works if done correctly. There is good data on that, but you have to buy some expensive books to read it!
No need to defend yourself. Its been a good discussion.