wangotango
Active Member
The nano I'm building this summer is going to have a 2:1 ratio of Cree XP royal blue to neutral white. I'm looking forward to getting started.
LED's are the BEST!!!
- Thread starter fishmaster78
- Start date
acrylic51
Active Member
Curious as well on the info you have Corey......I was advised a long time ago from Kcress about running tons of MW with harmonics issue and heat build up in house wiring.....Would love to see what else you have....I have contemplated contacting MW asking them directly about issues.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3386847
Curious as well on the info you have Corey......I was advised a long time ago from Kcress about running tons of MW with harmonics issue and heat build up in house wiring.....Would love to see what else you have....I have contemplated contacting MW asking them directly about issues.
Probably not too much more than what you've already read or heard Shawn. I did share a couple of pm's with Kcress about the issue and have re-read all of the postings that I could find. The fact of the matter is that he's right. The ELN's just don't have PFC capabilities. They are built with diodes that charge capacitors. Power is drawn from those capacitors by the emitters and then the capacitor has to charge back up. Essentially the drivers pull power from the wall in gulps. Think of it as pulses or fast waves of energy that they have to pull from the wall in order to operate. And these pulses or gulps can be 10Amps per driver. With multiple drivers they could reach gulps of 300Amps. The wiring in the home is only designed for 15amps. This is what generates the harmonics from what I understand. And when you have many of these drivers stacked up and all of them are drawing current in such a fashion then the harmonics can really build up. And this generates a tremendous amount heat which is stressful on the wiring in the home.
This is why you probably shouldn't use more than 6 tops. And even then you really don't ever want to fire them up at the same time. It's really just a gamble that you're playing with your circuitry in your home. So for big builds it's really not recommended. But this is where the HLG drivers come in. The HLG's do have PFC (power factor correction) capabilities that are by far safer for bigger builds. They pull current in a continuous and smooth fashion. But for a while now the ELN's were more strait forward for us DIY'ers to use and simpler to understand for those of us wanting dimming capabilities. Fortunately the new HLG 185-42B model is just starting to hit the market for those who want the dimming capabilities in a driver than can handle a lot more led's safely.
I hope that makes sense. Kcress explains it a lot better than I do.
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3386847
Curious as well on the info you have Corey......I was advised a long time ago from Kcress about running tons of MW with harmonics issue and heat build up in house wiring.....Would love to see what else you have....I have contemplated contacting MW asking them directly about issues.
Probably not too much more than what you've already read or heard Shawn. I did share a couple of pm's with Kcress about the issue and have re-read all of the postings that I could find. The fact of the matter is that he's right. The ELN's just don't have PFC capabilities. They are built with diodes that charge capacitors. Power is drawn from those capacitors by the emitters and then the capacitor has to charge back up. Essentially the drivers pull power from the wall in gulps. Think of it as pulses or fast waves of energy that they have to pull from the wall in order to operate. And these pulses or gulps can be 10Amps per driver. With multiple drivers they could reach gulps of 300Amps. The wiring in the home is only designed for 15amps. This is what generates the harmonics from what I understand. And when you have many of these drivers stacked up and all of them are drawing current in such a fashion then the harmonics can really build up. And this generates a tremendous amount heat which is stressful on the wiring in the home.
This is why you probably shouldn't use more than 6 tops. And even then you really don't ever want to fire them up at the same time. It's really just a gamble that you're playing with your circuitry in your home. So for big builds it's really not recommended. But this is where the HLG drivers come in. The HLG's do have PFC (power factor correction) capabilities that are by far safer for bigger builds. They pull current in a continuous and smooth fashion. But for a while now the ELN's were more strait forward for us DIY'ers to use and simpler to understand for those of us wanting dimming capabilities. Fortunately the new HLG 185-42B model is just starting to hit the market for those who want the dimming capabilities in a driver than can handle a lot more led's safely.
I hope that makes sense. Kcress explains it a lot better than I do.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3386891
Actually Corey, you explain it better!
We will probably upgrade the drivers as we have the $ just to be safe, but fir now, this move has consumed too much, so hopefully we won't have any issuesin the short term.
Hopefully you won't. I know you guys have your hands full right now. Alot depends on how you're using the fixture as well. If yours is set to come on slowly, meaning that your controller has the separate colors coming on at low (dim) current first and then gently rising to higher current then you are probably mitigating a lot of the initial inrush current, which is a good thing. And you probably won't end up seeing your breaker trip every time you fire up the fixture. My only concern really would be the harmonics when the fixture is running at the height of it's power or mid day when all of the lights are on full intensity. Because from what I understand is that any other electrical appliances that may be plugged into the same circuit could be negatively impacted by the harmonics in the long run. There's just alot of variables that come into play so it's hard to say for sure when or if you'll really see much of a problem. It's just one of those things that comes down to potential and the gamble of it all.
I did make in inquiry to your friend who built the fixture about his controllers. I explained to him a little bit about the plans for my build and how I was going to be running my led's in parallel strings which is what most people are doing now a days as opposed to series like he has yours wired up because it's much more efficient. But I don't think he knew what that meant and said that I would probably blow my leds. Which kind of left me to question how much he understands the technology and if he knows what he's actually selling to people. There are safe ways of doing it. His build quality looks great. And I was hoping to talk to him a little more but he never did get back with me.
You could easily run the same amount of leds on your fixture with the same drivers and only use half the amount. 6 of the ELN's could drive 120 leds without no problem but it requires making modifications to your wiring scheme. Which would need to happen anyways if you decide to swap out drivers. Those HLG 185-42B's that I mentioned could easily drive 60 leds a piece. So if you went with those you would only need two drivers. If the choice were mine I would sell the 12 ELN's and just pick up 2 of the HLG's. It would be a heck of a lot less wires to have to contend with. Just my .02
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3386898
10-4 Corey!!!!! Your correct that was my big push for an alternative driver!!!!
I definitely think that the HLG's will be your ticket Shawn. There really is no way of getting around the harmonics issue with the ELN's unfortunately...unless you're technically savy enough to make a PFC device that you can run with them. I may ultimately use 4 of them to drive 80 led's on my fixture. Each driver running 2 parallel strings of 10 so that's 20 a piece. They can easily do 24 a piece. And I would have them kick on at seperate times instead of all at once to minimize the inrush current. I think that the HLG 185-42B's might be a bit more than what I need. I'm still trying to work out if I can run 40 leds in parallel instead of 60. I think that I can but not a 100% on that just yet. If I can then I will go with those as well. If not I believe I can bump it up a little bit and run 48 per driver. It will be more led's than what I really need but thankfully that's what the dimming abilities are for.
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3386891
Actually Corey, you explain it better!
We will probably upgrade the drivers as we have the $ just to be safe, but fir now, this move has consumed too much, so hopefully we won't have any issuesin the short term.
Hopefully you won't. I know you guys have your hands full right now. Alot depends on how you're using the fixture as well. If yours is set to come on slowly, meaning that your controller has the separate colors coming on at low (dim) current first and then gently rising to higher current then you are probably mitigating a lot of the initial inrush current, which is a good thing. And you probably won't end up seeing your breaker trip every time you fire up the fixture. My only concern really would be the harmonics when the fixture is running at the height of it's power or mid day when all of the lights are on full intensity. Because from what I understand is that any other electrical appliances that may be plugged into the same circuit could be negatively impacted by the harmonics in the long run. There's just alot of variables that come into play so it's hard to say for sure when or if you'll really see much of a problem. It's just one of those things that comes down to potential and the gamble of it all.
I did make in inquiry to your friend who built the fixture about his controllers. I explained to him a little bit about the plans for my build and how I was going to be running my led's in parallel strings which is what most people are doing now a days as opposed to series like he has yours wired up because it's much more efficient. But I don't think he knew what that meant and said that I would probably blow my leds. Which kind of left me to question how much he understands the technology and if he knows what he's actually selling to people. There are safe ways of doing it. His build quality looks great. And I was hoping to talk to him a little more but he never did get back with me.
You could easily run the same amount of leds on your fixture with the same drivers and only use half the amount. 6 of the ELN's could drive 120 leds without no problem but it requires making modifications to your wiring scheme. Which would need to happen anyways if you decide to swap out drivers. Those HLG 185-42B's that I mentioned could easily drive 60 leds a piece. So if you went with those you would only need two drivers. If the choice were mine I would sell the 12 ELN's and just pick up 2 of the HLG's. It would be a heck of a lot less wires to have to contend with. Just my .02
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3386898
10-4 Corey!!!!! Your correct that was my big push for an alternative driver!!!!
I definitely think that the HLG's will be your ticket Shawn. There really is no way of getting around the harmonics issue with the ELN's unfortunately...unless you're technically savy enough to make a PFC device that you can run with them. I may ultimately use 4 of them to drive 80 led's on my fixture. Each driver running 2 parallel strings of 10 so that's 20 a piece. They can easily do 24 a piece. And I would have them kick on at seperate times instead of all at once to minimize the inrush current. I think that the HLG 185-42B's might be a bit more than what I need. I'm still trying to work out if I can run 40 leds in parallel instead of 60. I think that I can but not a 100% on that just yet. If I can then I will go with those as well. If not I believe I can bump it up a little bit and run 48 per driver. It will be more led's than what I really need but thankfully that's what the dimming abilities are for.
btldreef
Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3386919
Hopefully you won't. I know you guys have your hands full right now. Alot depends on how you're using the fixture as well. If yours is set to come on slowly, meaning that your controller has the separate colors coming on at low (dim) current first and then gently rising to higher current then you are probably mitigating a lot of the initial inrush current, which is a good thing. And you probably won't end up seeing your breaker trip every time you fire up the fixture. My only concern really would be the harmonics when the fixture is running at the height of it's power or mid day when all of the lights are on full intensity. Because from what I understand is that any other electrical appliances that may be plugged into the same circuit could be negatively impacted by the harmonics in the long run. There's just alot of variables that come into play so it's hard to say for sure when or if you'll really see much of a problem. It's just one of those things that comes down to potential and the gamble of it all.
I did make in inquiry to your friend who built the fixture about his controllers. I explained to him a little bit about the plans for my build and how I was going to be running my led's in parallel strings which is what most people are doing now a days as opposed to series like he has yours wired up because it's much more efficient. But I don't think he knew what that meant and said that I would probably blow my leds. Which kind of left me to question how much he understands the technology and if he knows what he's actually selling to people. There are safe ways of doing it. His build quality looks great. And I was hoping to talk to him a little more but he never did get back with me.
You could easily run the same amount of leds on your fixture with the same drivers and only use half the amount. 6 of the ELN's could drive 120 leds without no problem but it requires making modifications to your wiring scheme. Which would need to happen anyways if you decide to swap out drivers. Those HLG 185-42B's that I mentioned could easily drive 60 leds a piece. So if you went with those you would only need two drivers. If the choice were mine I would sell the 12 ELN's and just pick up 2 of the HLG's. It would be a heck of a lot less wires to have to contend with. Just my .02
I believe he was getting married this weekend or next, so I know he's super busy. He does work for the major power company for the Tri-State area, but I don't know him well, so in what capacity he works for them is completely unknown to me, we just both belong to the same reef club.
The new house has a separate breaker JUST for this tank. I am planning on housing other tanks in the same room, but they'll be on a separate breaker, so maybe that will help buy some time. The lights slowing dim on over a 90-120 minute period (we're still playing with exactly how long to give them to warm up) and also dim back off as well. So this too could be helping. We h ave 120 LEDs all together. We'll definitely be looking into the HLG series. Thanks for all your help Corey!
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3386919
Hopefully you won't. I know you guys have your hands full right now. Alot depends on how you're using the fixture as well. If yours is set to come on slowly, meaning that your controller has the separate colors coming on at low (dim) current first and then gently rising to higher current then you are probably mitigating a lot of the initial inrush current, which is a good thing. And you probably won't end up seeing your breaker trip every time you fire up the fixture. My only concern really would be the harmonics when the fixture is running at the height of it's power or mid day when all of the lights are on full intensity. Because from what I understand is that any other electrical appliances that may be plugged into the same circuit could be negatively impacted by the harmonics in the long run. There's just alot of variables that come into play so it's hard to say for sure when or if you'll really see much of a problem. It's just one of those things that comes down to potential and the gamble of it all.
I did make in inquiry to your friend who built the fixture about his controllers. I explained to him a little bit about the plans for my build and how I was going to be running my led's in parallel strings which is what most people are doing now a days as opposed to series like he has yours wired up because it's much more efficient. But I don't think he knew what that meant and said that I would probably blow my leds. Which kind of left me to question how much he understands the technology and if he knows what he's actually selling to people. There are safe ways of doing it. His build quality looks great. And I was hoping to talk to him a little more but he never did get back with me.
You could easily run the same amount of leds on your fixture with the same drivers and only use half the amount. 6 of the ELN's could drive 120 leds without no problem but it requires making modifications to your wiring scheme. Which would need to happen anyways if you decide to swap out drivers. Those HLG 185-42B's that I mentioned could easily drive 60 leds a piece. So if you went with those you would only need two drivers. If the choice were mine I would sell the 12 ELN's and just pick up 2 of the HLG's. It would be a heck of a lot less wires to have to contend with. Just my .02
I believe he was getting married this weekend or next, so I know he's super busy. He does work for the major power company for the Tri-State area, but I don't know him well, so in what capacity he works for them is completely unknown to me, we just both belong to the same reef club.
The new house has a separate breaker JUST for this tank. I am planning on housing other tanks in the same room, but they'll be on a separate breaker, so maybe that will help buy some time. The lights slowing dim on over a 90-120 minute period (we're still playing with exactly how long to give them to warm up) and also dim back off as well. So this too could be helping. We h ave 120 LEDs all together. We'll definitely be looking into the HLG series. Thanks for all your help Corey!
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3387198
Just curious if it matters whether or not our ELN drivers were hooked up to individual fuses?
I assume the fuses are installed after the drivers and are at the head of the strings? Do you know what size fuses they are? The fuses are used as a safety net to keep an excessive amount of current passing through the leds and thus blowing them out. Typically these are 1 amp fuses. They don't do anything to deter inrush current or harmonics. They are simply to protect the leds.
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3387198
Just curious if it matters whether or not our ELN drivers were hooked up to individual fuses?
I assume the fuses are installed after the drivers and are at the head of the strings? Do you know what size fuses they are? The fuses are used as a safety net to keep an excessive amount of current passing through the leds and thus blowing them out. Typically these are 1 amp fuses. They don't do anything to deter inrush current or harmonics. They are simply to protect the leds.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3387194
Your correct Josh, but obtaining the drivers is the issue.....For the average DIY as Corey pointed out would be the HLG's......Honestly I haven't sat down and actually started planning the LED build; amount, spacing of the LEDs at the moment.
Shawn do you know what type of emitters that you want to go with? I would seriously consider utilizing some neutral whites. They put out a much greater range of spectral output than the cool whites. The cool whites are obviously more pleasing to the eye but utilizing some neutrals would go a long way for the health of the corals in regards to usable radiation.
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3387194
Your correct Josh, but obtaining the drivers is the issue.....For the average DIY as Corey pointed out would be the HLG's......Honestly I haven't sat down and actually started planning the LED build; amount, spacing of the LEDs at the moment.
Shawn do you know what type of emitters that you want to go with? I would seriously consider utilizing some neutral whites. They put out a much greater range of spectral output than the cool whites. The cool whites are obviously more pleasing to the eye but utilizing some neutrals would go a long way for the health of the corals in regards to usable radiation.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3387206
I was considering a mix of both Corey!!!!!! I sat a couple times and started looking and want to purchase a some LEDs; not huge quantities, just to start laying out the heat sinks basically.....
Cool. I think the XR-E's look like winners to me. I think I'll use those for all three types. Good output and good spectral range on the neutrals. I've seen some guys starting to build with the new XM-L's but that seems crazy to me. I don't see much need for a led that max out at 3000mA. I sat down and did the math last night and the good news is that I'll be able to utilize the HGL 42B's. Rapid is already sold out of them I see.
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3387206
I was considering a mix of both Corey!!!!!! I sat a couple times and started looking and want to purchase a some LEDs; not huge quantities, just to start laying out the heat sinks basically.....
Cool. I think the XR-E's look like winners to me. I think I'll use those for all three types. Good output and good spectral range on the neutrals. I've seen some guys starting to build with the new XM-L's but that seems crazy to me. I don't see much need for a led that max out at 3000mA. I sat down and did the math last night and the good news is that I'll be able to utilize the HGL 42B's. Rapid is already sold out of them I see.
2quills
Well-Known Member
XP-G R5's 139 lumens are a slight step up over the XR-E Q5's 107 lumens. In terms of the neutral whites though the XR-E's have a much greater spectral range and output. I figure I'll keep mine the same to keep it simple in terms of optics. I probably won't have a need to drive mine that high anyways. The XP-G's can top out at 1500mA. But how many people are actually driving them that high?
2quills
Well-Known Member
I guess it comes down to what you're plans are. I'll be going with a little bit more leds than what I really need. So that should mean that I can keep the current a little bit lower and use 60 or even 40 degree optics without sacrificing spread or par. If someone wanted to go with less leds then they could theoretically go with wider optics and drive them harder. More heat there though. Less life span.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Snapple http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3387219
If I was doing a large build I would do a 1:1:1:1 of
cool white
neutral white
blue
royal blue
I would also throw in a couple reds and greens.
I think that would be some serious blue going on in the tank. I'm still thinking about a few greens though. Might do one strip on a seperate driver for neutral whites and a few greens that I can run during the day for spectrum. And enjoy the royal blue and cool white look while I'm at home in the evenings.
Originally Posted by 1Snapple http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3387219
If I was doing a large build I would do a 1:1:1:1 of
cool white
neutral white
blue
royal blue
I would also throw in a couple reds and greens.
I think that would be some serious blue going on in the tank. I'm still thinking about a few greens though. Might do one strip on a seperate driver for neutral whites and a few greens that I can run during the day for spectrum. And enjoy the royal blue and cool white look while I'm at home in the evenings.