LED's are the BEST!!!
- Thread starter fishmaster78
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2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387223
Well, I found the HLG 185-42A's online in stock for $103 a piece. Looks like my Mother's Day gift will now be upgraded to a Father's Day gift, LOL
The 42A's are non dimmable...well they are dimmable by adjusting the built in POT manually. But you'll need the 42B's that are PWM (pulse width modulation) compatible in order to run the controller you have now. That's why he built yours with the ELN 60-48P's. The 48P's dim by PWM signal. The HLG 42B's are in pretty short supply right now unfortunately because they're still brand new. They just started hitting the market this month.
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387223
Well, I found the HLG 185-42A's online in stock for $103 a piece. Looks like my Mother's Day gift will now be upgraded to a Father's Day gift, LOL
The 42A's are non dimmable...well they are dimmable by adjusting the built in POT manually. But you'll need the 42B's that are PWM (pulse width modulation) compatible in order to run the controller you have now. That's why he built yours with the ELN 60-48P's. The 48P's dim by PWM signal. The HLG 42B's are in pretty short supply right now unfortunately because they're still brand new. They just started hitting the market this month.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387227
Thanks for catching that. Yeah, the 42B's are anywhere from $98-140, but doesn't look like anyone has them in stock.
Hey T.L. I was thinking about this and I think it's worth mentioning that if you do replace the drivers then it means that you're going to have to re-wire the leds into parallel strings. Typically this involves the addition of fuses and resistors with terminal blocks. It also requires balancing of strings, meaning swapping leds around in order to get equal voltage on each string. Do you guys have a volt meter? Are the leds on your fixture removable? Also, do you know what leds were used and what the forward current is on them at the moment? If the leds were epoxied then it might be a little sketchy trying to remove them without destroying them. The only other question is the controller. I don't have any exp. with the diy controllers so I'm not 100% sure if swapping the drivers is going to have any kind of impact on that or not. I am still concerned about the harmonics ofcorse but I'm just wondering how practical this is going to be for you guys to do if the leds aren't easily changeable. I don't feel comfortable suggesting that you guys move forward on this without having a clear picture of what you're getting into if you know what I mean. I don't want ya to blame ol 2Quills if something happens to the fixture to cause you guys some serious frustration.
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387227
Thanks for catching that. Yeah, the 42B's are anywhere from $98-140, but doesn't look like anyone has them in stock.
Hey T.L. I was thinking about this and I think it's worth mentioning that if you do replace the drivers then it means that you're going to have to re-wire the leds into parallel strings. Typically this involves the addition of fuses and resistors with terminal blocks. It also requires balancing of strings, meaning swapping leds around in order to get equal voltage on each string. Do you guys have a volt meter? Are the leds on your fixture removable? Also, do you know what leds were used and what the forward current is on them at the moment? If the leds were epoxied then it might be a little sketchy trying to remove them without destroying them. The only other question is the controller. I don't have any exp. with the diy controllers so I'm not 100% sure if swapping the drivers is going to have any kind of impact on that or not. I am still concerned about the harmonics ofcorse but I'm just wondering how practical this is going to be for you guys to do if the leds aren't easily changeable. I don't feel comfortable suggesting that you guys move forward on this without having a clear picture of what you're getting into if you know what I mean. I don't want ya to blame ol 2Quills if something happens to the fixture to cause you guys some serious frustration.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3387213
Yeah I seen they were sold out of them.....When I finally had a moment to breath, I sat down to order 2 and gone!!!!! Definitely not going with the XM-L's....Aren't the XP-G's a step up over the XR-E's?
You know, Shawn...the hlg 185-48B's might be an option for you as well as apposed to the 42B's. They're 3.9 Amp instead of 4.4. Which means you could still do 5 parallel strings of 12 per driver but you would only get a max current of .780mA instead of .880mA. And the 48V would give you a little extra head room over the 42V.
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3387213
Yeah I seen they were sold out of them.....When I finally had a moment to breath, I sat down to order 2 and gone!!!!! Definitely not going with the XM-L's....Aren't the XP-G's a step up over the XR-E's?
You know, Shawn...the hlg 185-48B's might be an option for you as well as apposed to the 42B's. They're 3.9 Amp instead of 4.4. Which means you could still do 5 parallel strings of 12 per driver but you would only get a max current of .780mA instead of .880mA. And the 48V would give you a little extra head room over the 42V.
cipher43
Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3386865
Probably not too much more than what you've already read or heard Shawn. I did share a couple of pm's with Kcress about the issue and have re-read all of the postings that I could find. The fact of the matter is that he's right. The ELN's just don't have PFC capabilities. They are built with diodes that charge capacitors. Power is drawn from those capacitors by the emitters and then the capacitor has to charge back up. Essentially the drivers pull power from the wall in gulps. Think of it as pulses or fast waves of energy that they have to pull from the wall in order to operate. And these pulses or gulps can be 10Amps per driver. With multiple drivers they could reach gulps of 300Amps. The wiring in the home is only designed for 15amps. This is what generates the harmonics from what I understand. And when you have many of these drivers stacked up and all of them are drawing current in such a fashion then the harmonics can really build up. And this generates a tremendous amount heat which is stressful on the wiring in the home.
This is why you probably shouldn't use more than 6 tops. And even then you really don't ever want to fire them up at the same time. It's really just a gamble that you're playing with your circuitry in your home. So for big builds it's really not recommended. But this is where the HLG drivers come in. The HLG's do have PFC (power factor correction) capabilities that are by far safer for bigger builds. They pull current in a continuous and smooth fashion. But for a while now the ELN's were more strait forward for us DIY'ers to use and simpler to understand for those of us wanting dimming capabilities. Fortunately the new HLG 185-42B model is just starting to hit the market for those who want the dimming capabilities in a driver than can handle a lot more led's safely.
I hope that makes sense. Kcress explains it a lot better than I do.
So how many LEDs can the HLG 185-42B drive max and min? also do you know any places that sell them yet? I'm only planning on buying 2 drivers running 24 LEDs each for my project right now but want to expand with more LEDs like up to 48 more later so i would have to buy 2 more for that so if these can drive a lot more then I wonder if i should go with that.
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/20#post_3386865
Probably not too much more than what you've already read or heard Shawn. I did share a couple of pm's with Kcress about the issue and have re-read all of the postings that I could find. The fact of the matter is that he's right. The ELN's just don't have PFC capabilities. They are built with diodes that charge capacitors. Power is drawn from those capacitors by the emitters and then the capacitor has to charge back up. Essentially the drivers pull power from the wall in gulps. Think of it as pulses or fast waves of energy that they have to pull from the wall in order to operate. And these pulses or gulps can be 10Amps per driver. With multiple drivers they could reach gulps of 300Amps. The wiring in the home is only designed for 15amps. This is what generates the harmonics from what I understand. And when you have many of these drivers stacked up and all of them are drawing current in such a fashion then the harmonics can really build up. And this generates a tremendous amount heat which is stressful on the wiring in the home.
This is why you probably shouldn't use more than 6 tops. And even then you really don't ever want to fire them up at the same time. It's really just a gamble that you're playing with your circuitry in your home. So for big builds it's really not recommended. But this is where the HLG drivers come in. The HLG's do have PFC (power factor correction) capabilities that are by far safer for bigger builds. They pull current in a continuous and smooth fashion. But for a while now the ELN's were more strait forward for us DIY'ers to use and simpler to understand for those of us wanting dimming capabilities. Fortunately the new HLG 185-42B model is just starting to hit the market for those who want the dimming capabilities in a driver than can handle a lot more led's safely.
I hope that makes sense. Kcress explains it a lot better than I do.
So how many LEDs can the HLG 185-42B drive max and min? also do you know any places that sell them yet? I'm only planning on buying 2 drivers running 24 LEDs each for my project right now but want to expand with more LEDs like up to 48 more later so i would have to buy 2 more for that so if these can drive a lot more then I wonder if i should go with that.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher43 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387254
So how many LEDs can the HLG 185-42B drive? also do you know any places that sell them yet? I'm only planning on buying 2 drivers for my project right now but want to expand with more LEDs later so i would have to buy 2 more for that so if these can drive a lot more then I wonder if i should go with that.
They can do upto 60 leds . I wouldn't try pushing any more than that and wouldn't try to exceed 3.5v max. I put some links on Shawns thread not long ago with some places that were advertising them. I don't know if they have them in stock or not. Rapidled did have some for about a week but they sold out quick. I'll keep my eyes open and let you know if I see some in stock somewhere. Is this for your 120 gallon?
Originally Posted by Cipher43 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387254
So how many LEDs can the HLG 185-42B drive? also do you know any places that sell them yet? I'm only planning on buying 2 drivers for my project right now but want to expand with more LEDs later so i would have to buy 2 more for that so if these can drive a lot more then I wonder if i should go with that.
They can do upto 60 leds . I wouldn't try pushing any more than that and wouldn't try to exceed 3.5v max. I put some links on Shawns thread not long ago with some places that were advertising them. I don't know if they have them in stock or not. Rapidled did have some for about a week but they sold out quick. I'll keep my eyes open and let you know if I see some in stock somewhere. Is this for your 120 gallon?
cipher43
Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387262
They can do upto 60 leds . I wouldn't try pushing any more than that and wouldn't try to exceed 3.5v max. I put some links on Shawns thread not long ago with some places that were advertising them. I don't know if they have them in stock or not. Rapidled did have some for about a week but they sold out quick. I'll keep my eyes open and let you know if I see some in stock somewhere. Is this for your 120 gallon?
yep its for the 120 gallon. how many bulbs would you suggest. i was planning on 48 to start with and have something like snapple said of a 1:1:1:1 cool whites,natural whites, blues, and royal blues mix for better spectrum. may even throw in some greens and reds but haven't found any info yet that it actually helps yet.
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387262
They can do upto 60 leds . I wouldn't try pushing any more than that and wouldn't try to exceed 3.5v max. I put some links on Shawns thread not long ago with some places that were advertising them. I don't know if they have them in stock or not. Rapidled did have some for about a week but they sold out quick. I'll keep my eyes open and let you know if I see some in stock somewhere. Is this for your 120 gallon?
yep its for the 120 gallon. how many bulbs would you suggest. i was planning on 48 to start with and have something like snapple said of a 1:1:1:1 cool whites,natural whites, blues, and royal blues mix for better spectrum. may even throw in some greens and reds but haven't found any info yet that it actually helps yet.
btldreef
Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387242
Hey T.L. I was thinking about this and I think it's worth mentioning that if you do replace the drivers then it means that you're going to have to re-wire the leds into parallel strings. Typically this involves the addition of fuses and resistors with terminal blocks. It also requires balancing of strings, meaning swapping leds around in order to get equal voltage on each string. Do you guys have a volt meter? Are the leds on your fixture removable? Also, do you know what leds were used and what the forward current is on them at the moment? If the leds were epoxied then it might be a little sketchy trying to remove them without destroying them. The only other question is the controller. I don't have any exp. with the diy controllers so I'm not 100% sure if swapping the drivers is going to have any kind of impact on that or not. I am still concerned about the harmonics ofcorse but I'm just wondering how practical this is going to be for you guys to do if the leds aren't easily changeable. I don't feel comfortable suggesting that you guys move forward on this without having a clear picture of what you're getting into if you know what I mean. I don't want ya to blame ol 2Quills if something happens to the fixture to cause you guys some serious frustration.
The LED's are screwed in, and easily replaceable. We broke one when we were transporting the fixture home and it was an easy fix. They're no epoxied in, thank goodness! My husband has a volt meter and is very familiar with wiring. We were going to do a DIY unit, but this setup was about what we would have spent for just the lights, heat sinks and fans. The LEDs are CREE XR-E Cool White and Royal Blue, I believe, I'd have to double check with my husband. We're okay with having to rewire, etc. The big issue was getting a fixture immediately for our move since the new house probably couldn't handle the pull of the metal halides, chiller and AC all at once.
Here is the build thread from when he made it:
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/diy-do-yourself/83033-my-custom-led-build-125g-tank.html
If any of you have the time to read through it and see any big issues, please let me know. I'm willing to make upgrades. We already knew we'd have to do some, such as optics. He has this over a 6ft long 125 and was supposed to then go on a 180 but he ended up moving and having to downgrade. We are putting it over a 180 mixed reef. What optics would you go with?
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387242
Hey T.L. I was thinking about this and I think it's worth mentioning that if you do replace the drivers then it means that you're going to have to re-wire the leds into parallel strings. Typically this involves the addition of fuses and resistors with terminal blocks. It also requires balancing of strings, meaning swapping leds around in order to get equal voltage on each string. Do you guys have a volt meter? Are the leds on your fixture removable? Also, do you know what leds were used and what the forward current is on them at the moment? If the leds were epoxied then it might be a little sketchy trying to remove them without destroying them. The only other question is the controller. I don't have any exp. with the diy controllers so I'm not 100% sure if swapping the drivers is going to have any kind of impact on that or not. I am still concerned about the harmonics ofcorse but I'm just wondering how practical this is going to be for you guys to do if the leds aren't easily changeable. I don't feel comfortable suggesting that you guys move forward on this without having a clear picture of what you're getting into if you know what I mean. I don't want ya to blame ol 2Quills if something happens to the fixture to cause you guys some serious frustration.
The LED's are screwed in, and easily replaceable. We broke one when we were transporting the fixture home and it was an easy fix. They're no epoxied in, thank goodness! My husband has a volt meter and is very familiar with wiring. We were going to do a DIY unit, but this setup was about what we would have spent for just the lights, heat sinks and fans. The LEDs are CREE XR-E Cool White and Royal Blue, I believe, I'd have to double check with my husband. We're okay with having to rewire, etc. The big issue was getting a fixture immediately for our move since the new house probably couldn't handle the pull of the metal halides, chiller and AC all at once.
Here is the build thread from when he made it:
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/diy-do-yourself/83033-my-custom-led-build-125g-tank.html
If any of you have the time to read through it and see any big issues, please let me know. I'm willing to make upgrades. We already knew we'd have to do some, such as optics. He has this over a 6ft long 125 and was supposed to then go on a 180 but he ended up moving and having to downgrade. We are putting it over a 180 mixed reef. What optics would you go with?
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher43 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387267
yep its for the 120 gallon. how many bulbs would you suggest. i was planning on 48 to start with and have something like snapple said of a 1:1:1:1 cool whites,natural whites, blues, and royal blues mix for better spectrum. may even throw in some greens and reds but haven't found any info yet that it actually helps yet.
Let me get back with you on that when I get home tonight so I can give you the long answere or sugguestion. But I'd stay away from the reds if you're going to be running some neutral whites. They have more than enough red output already. Reds and neutrals would make a great fuge light though. Feeds the algae.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387297
The LED's are screwed in, and easily replaceable. We broke one when we were transporting the fixture home and it was an easy fix. They're no epoxied in, thank goodness! My husband has a volt meter and is very familiar with wiring. We were going to do a DIY unit, but this setup was about what we would have spent for just the lights, heat sinks and fans. The LEDs are CREE XR-E Cool White and Royal Blue, I believe, I'd have to double check with my husband. We're okay with having to rewire, etc. The big issue was getting a fixture immediately for our move since the new house probably couldn't handle the pull of the metal halides, chiller and AC all at once.
Here is the build thread from when he made it:
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/diy-do-yourself/83033-my-custom-led-build-125g-tank.html
If any of you have the time to read through it and see any big issues, please let me know. I'm willing to make upgrades. We already knew we'd have to do some, such as optics. He has this over a 6ft long 125 and was supposed to then go on a 180 but he ended up moving and having to downgrade. We are putting it over a 180 mixed reef. What optics would you go with?
Ok, that's a bonus then. It sounds like you guys have done some research already so that's good. I'll take a read through that thread tonight and see if we can put our heads together and figure out what excactly is going on in that fixture of yours. Maybe some other folks will jump in as well.
Originally Posted by Cipher43 http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387267
yep its for the 120 gallon. how many bulbs would you suggest. i was planning on 48 to start with and have something like snapple said of a 1:1:1:1 cool whites,natural whites, blues, and royal blues mix for better spectrum. may even throw in some greens and reds but haven't found any info yet that it actually helps yet.
Let me get back with you on that when I get home tonight so I can give you the long answere or sugguestion. But I'd stay away from the reds if you're going to be running some neutral whites. They have more than enough red output already. Reds and neutrals would make a great fuge light though. Feeds the algae.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387297
The LED's are screwed in, and easily replaceable. We broke one when we were transporting the fixture home and it was an easy fix. They're no epoxied in, thank goodness! My husband has a volt meter and is very familiar with wiring. We were going to do a DIY unit, but this setup was about what we would have spent for just the lights, heat sinks and fans. The LEDs are CREE XR-E Cool White and Royal Blue, I believe, I'd have to double check with my husband. We're okay with having to rewire, etc. The big issue was getting a fixture immediately for our move since the new house probably couldn't handle the pull of the metal halides, chiller and AC all at once.
Here is the build thread from when he made it:
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/diy-do-yourself/83033-my-custom-led-build-125g-tank.html
If any of you have the time to read through it and see any big issues, please let me know. I'm willing to make upgrades. We already knew we'd have to do some, such as optics. He has this over a 6ft long 125 and was supposed to then go on a 180 but he ended up moving and having to downgrade. We are putting it over a 180 mixed reef. What optics would you go with?
Ok, that's a bonus then. It sounds like you guys have done some research already so that's good. I'll take a read through that thread tonight and see if we can put our heads together and figure out what excactly is going on in that fixture of yours. Maybe some other folks will jump in as well.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Snapple http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387362
The thing about the reds and greens is that it makes greens and reds POP even more so, since all the light we see is reflected light, the greens add more green light to be reflected, there for, brighter colors.
Hmmm...I may be wrong about the greens. Actually I don't think I want to use them. The reds, possibly. My goal with mixing the colors isn't so much to gain more color from the types of light used as much as it is about the actual health of the coral. And about producing the most usable light for the corals. If you have healthy corals the colors will be there. The greens don't actually reflect green like the blues do. Green and yellow is actually pretty useless to corals in terms of phototropic response. Most green algae like zooxanthellic algae that live in our corals thrive more under the blue or actinic spectrum 465-485nm which is why they seem to glow or fluoresce under more blue or actinic lighting.
But the most important area of the spectrum for corals is actually in the 620-740nm range (red) in order for Chlorophyll synthesis to occur. Chlorophyll synthesis peaks right around 670nm. This range is actually where most LED's are lacking in the spectrum. Because you can't reach it with blue leds and there is little to almost no spike in that range with cool whites. There is more usable light in that range with warm white, neutral white, and red LED's (in that order).
*C: Chlorophyll synthesis is the chemical reactions and pathways by the plant hormone cytokinin soon after exposure to the correct Nanometers wave length (about 670 NM) of light resulting in the formation of chlorophyll, resulting in continued growth of a plant, algae, zooxanthellae and the ability to "feed" and propagate, and without this aspect PAR (670 NM light energy), zooxanthellae and plants cannot properly "feed" propagate. The results of the lack of this high PAR "spike" would be stunted freshwater plant growth, and eventually poor coral health in reef tanks.
So you can see the importance of the red range for corals for their over all longevity and health. I think this is the reason why some people see great results with leds at first and then see drop in certain types of corals down the road.
Another interesting thing that I came upon was the revelation that Cyano Bacteria actually thrives more in the middle yellow and green spectrum. Commonly produced by fluorescent bulbs.
So given some of this information that I've been reading the two most important areas of the spectrum to try and achieve would be to try and hit peaks in the 465-485nm range. I believe this is why people are going with a combination of royal blue and blue. And the range between 620-740nm with emphasis on peaking out as close to 670nm as possible.
I believe I'll shoot for a combination of royal blue and blue, cool white and neutral white. And possibly throw in a few reds. I think what I'll do is run 40 blue leds of royal blue and blue mix on one driver. Then 40 cool whites on another driver since that will give me the color most pleasing to the eye. And do a strip of 20 leds...14 neutral whites and 6 reds that I can turn separately during the day to help cover the spectrum and give my corals what they'll need to be healthy for a long time to come. Hmm...I may have to go with some xp-e leds for red.
nikesb
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Snapple http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387434
Also, If i had a controller, i would do blues on for Moonlights, then after I left for work or whatnot have the blues go off and the whites turn on, providing better growth, then when I got back home the blues would turn back on and color things up.
would not do this. the 460nm spectrum provides alot of stimulation for the symbiotic algae within corals. just cause it grows, doesnt mean its happy. growth and coloration together would be a better notification
Originally Posted by 1Snapple http:///forum/thread/385895/led-s-are-the-best/40#post_3387434
Also, If i had a controller, i would do blues on for Moonlights, then after I left for work or whatnot have the blues go off and the whites turn on, providing better growth, then when I got back home the blues would turn back on and color things up.
would not do this. the 460nm spectrum provides alot of stimulation for the symbiotic algae within corals. just cause it grows, doesnt mean its happy. growth and coloration together would be a better notification