LFS Guy touched lion fish!

atlfish

Member
I went to a LfS yesterday to shop for a new fish. While the LFS guy was telling me about the fish and showing me the selection, I stoped in front of this lionfish. I told him although I really love this fish I would never own one because I put my hands in the tank too much and was very much afraid I would get stung. He said that they hardly ever sting as he began to stick his hand in the tank and touch the lion fish fins! :scared: freaked me out! I just knew that he would get stung but he didn't. Alought I enjoyed the thrill, I still think that was a dumb ass thing to do. Anyway although I still love this fish Im still very stand offish about ever owning one. Can anyone give me some insight a bout their lionfish. Every got stunk, why they sting or how?
 

sweetdawn

Active Member
i have a fuzzy dwarf i would never touch it anything that comes with a warning mentioning death is not getting touched i stick my hands in the tank i just see where he is before i do and keep my eye on him til im done in the tank.
 

ophiura

Active Member
The sting in defense, but you must basically smack your hand into the spines...in particular the thick spines of the dorsal fin. I've been in small tanks with several lions and never been stung. Its just not an issue that would ever keep me from keeping one. You just always need to know where the fish is.
 

mhoup

Member
I have heard of a guy getting stung from the LFS, and I guess that the guys hand swelled up pretty good and he had no feeling from his shoulder down for a few days.......again, I did not witness this, it could be a myth...
I agree withthe previous post, don't let the "warning" scare ya',I plan on getting a red Volitan in about a month once my Tesse gets settled in.
 

ophiura

Active Member
The key is knowing what to do if you are stung, which is to run the area under the hottest water you can tolerate for a good 15 minutes or so.
 

harlequin

Member
I had lions for years and never had a problem with it. I even fed them by hand. Lions are very non-aggressive fish and do not go out of their way to sting people.
 

mhoup

Member
That's what I have heardread about them too, most animals sea or land are that way, they don't say, "hey, look bob, I see a human hand, go sting it"....lol. They try to avoid us as much as we try to avoid them.
 

gamedawg

Member
It is NOT a myth that you will have affects worse than a bee sting. These fish are venomous, and don't have to do anything to sting you, all you have to do is touch the spines. Your LFS guy probably touched the fish where it didn't have stingers, to show off. The top spines are the poisonous ones. They will not try to sting you unless you are a threat. If you are just moving some stuff around, or cleaning, just watch where you put your hand. If you go around trying to chase him with your hand or cornering him, yea, he will turn around and try to defend himself. I did a lot of reaserch on these guys, because I knew they were venomous, and if I'm allergic to bees, then I wanted to make sure not do do anything wrong with these guys.
I have a couple websites that I have gotten my info, and I know it's rude to link to another fish site, so I'll quote some things.
THE ENVENOMATION
"Stings from lionfishes are a defensive response, typically to being cornered or harassed in some way, with the dorsal spines being the predominant weapon. Lionfishes can charge at an adversary at surprising speed considering their less-than-hydrodynamic appearance, and wield the dorsal spines like so many tiny lances in a joust. This happens most often during tank maintenance, when the aquarist's attention may move away from the fish and to the task at hand. While most fishes will typically move away from a scrubbing arm, the lionfishes have a habit of occasionally moving away - just enough to get a running start back at the arm. I have been stung myself in this way, and I'll tell you that it happened in the blink of an eye. My advice is to watch what you are doing and don't assume that a fish you've had for a while has somehow turned "tame", as the 12" individual that stung me had been in an aquarium under my care for at least two years without incident. For whatever reason, it was "spooked" that day, and reminded me that I shouldn't be so careless as to ignore it. Of course, the other common way to get stung is to attempt to handle a lionfish during transportation, introduction, or relocation, with the end result being the same. "
"The mechanism of the sting is actually rather simple. Each spine is covered with a sheath-like integumen from tip to base, which is compressed down the spine when the spine is thrust into a victim's flesh. The venom glands are positioned at the base of the spine, and upon compression of the integumen, they are basically squeezed from above and thus release their product. The venom then travels through thin grooves in the spine and is delivered into the puncture wound created by the spine. As I understand it, the harder the strike, the deeper the wound, the more compression, and the more venom injected. Hence, light strikes can be far less injurious than hard ones"
THE EFFECTS
"Again, while stories of death by lionfish are common, it has been impossible for me to find a single documented case of such after an extensive search of medical literature. Other authors have reported the same results. This does not mean that it has never happened, but it implies that death by lionfish is exceptionally rare or unrecognized. It may in fact be limited only to those victims that might display some sort of allergic reaction, or to those that suffer from a fatal infection related to the wound."
"Conversely, in the vast majority of cases, the predominant effects of a sting are nothing more than severe pain and swelling (edema) in the area around the puncture. Some victims have experienced systematic responses such as nausea, dizziness, muscle weakness, shortness of breath, hypotension, and headache brought on by the venom, or as a reaction to the level of pain, or both, but that's about it. In the worst of cases when medical treatment has been administered, some blistering and/or tissue loss (necrosis) has been experienced in the wound area, but this is very uncommon.
In a series of 101 documented cases of captive lionfish envenomations in the US, the following effects were reported (Gallagher, 2001):
92% of patients experienced local pain
60% of patients experienced edema
13% of patients experienced systematic symptoms
1% of patients experienced tissue necrosis
0% of patients experienced death"
THE RESPONSES
"There are several things to do if stung by a lionfish, one of which is getting professional help. I realize I've just pointed out that the chances of receiving a serious injury are slim, but that's if a sting is treated promptly and properly. Avoiding professional help, or neglecting such an injury, can be very painful and can lead to real trouble. Applying first aid at home can help to relieve the pain almost immediately, but a trip to the emergency room is strongly advised."
 

mhoup

Member
THE RESPONSES
"There are several things to do if stung by a lionfish, one of which is getting professional help. I realize I've just pointed out that the chances of receiving a serious injury are slim, but that's if a sting is treated promptly and properly. Avoiding professional help, or neglecting such an injury, can be very painful and can lead to real trouble. Applying first aid at home can help to relieve the pain almost immediately, but a trip to the emergency room is strongly advised."
Awesome information though, appreciated, it sounds like you've been stung.
 

the reef

Member
I once got poked by a sea urchine and it injected my hand with black inck benith my skin my had went nub for like 2 days just ware rubber gloves that should protect your skin if he ever fells thretend
 

atlfish

Member
Thanks Guys. Im still going to think about it for about a year. Once I get a hang on this thing. The good news is I Finally got a knew fish. He seems really happy at the moment. He is a bicolored Angle fish! I'll keep you posted with my progress.
 

tnt

Member
We have a volitans. I just started feeding him by hand. He will actually stick his head up out of the water to take food if you hold it above the water. Our picasso trigger swims in and out of the lion's fins all of the time. The lion actually moves his fins out of the trigger's way. If the lion ever gets mad at the trigger, he bites at him to warn him. He is extremely docile. When my hand is in the tank my husband watches the lion and trigger for me.
I did research on lions before we got one too. Most resources say unless you are allergic to the sting, it is useless to go to the emergency room. Most hospitals do not have an antivenom for lionfish stings unless you live on the coast. Best advice seems to be the hot water.
 

tnt

Member
ok, stupid question... does that little flame guy mean something? I just used it because of the hot water. I saw something on another post about flaming people after I used it but I didn't quite understand. Sorry if it's something negative. My bad!
 

ophiura

Active Member
LOL, well - "traditionally" as far as tradition goes on these boards, "flaming" someone means an often unecessarily harsh response to someone's question or post. But I think the smiley can be used in other contexts as well
 

gamedawg

Member
TNT, Just because a trigger can swim in and out of the lions fins does not mean they aren't venomous. The side fins on a lion are not dangerous. It is the needle like ones on it's spine that are.
The Reef, wearing rubber gloves are not going to protect you against a lionfish's sting. Those spines it's got will go right thru a rubber glove.
There is no myth that these fish are venomous. They can and will hurt you if you get poked by one of it's spines. The tail and pec fins are safe, but I wouldn't get close enough to touch even the safe parts of a lion. These fish move very fast, and if they get spooked, they can hit your hand or arm before you can even blink.
They are not mean fish, they won't try to get you on normal occasions, (unless you are taunting them) just watch where you're putting your hands.
 

tnt

Member
I agree. I wasn't implying that they weren't venomous, just that they aren't constantly intentionally trying to sting. If you notice, I did say that when my hand is in the tank I'm very aware of where the lion is--and for that matter, the trigger. I imagine that most instances of getting stung are due to owner carelessness not intentional meaness of the fish. h*
 

ophiura

Active Member
I would agree that most are due to owner carelessness and in many respects I would be more wary of a triggerfish for causing injury than a lion. Triggers can be, IME, more outwardly aggressive as opposed to defensive.
FWIW, I've worked in extremely tight quarters around several lionfish at a time (in an LFS in maybe 15gish tanks with 3 small individuals or in a larger tank with about 9 fully grown lions) and some very precarious situations...and never been stung. You've really got to be on the ball around them, but I would not avoid getting one, personally, because they are venemous.
 

tnt

Member
I definitely reccommend a both a lion and trigger. My trigger is very shy, when your hand goes in the tank he hides. I've seen pics of bites from triggers though and it isn't pretty, so I am always on the lookout for him. Our lion is very personable. When you look at the tank, he has to be right in front of you and will follow you along the tank. He's always begging for food. Kinda like a puppydog. It's also very cool to hear the trigger grunt when he's excited. I think you just have to be careful and very aware when your hand is in an aggressive tank. Good luck!
 

ophiura

Active Member
This would actually be a personal experience/individual fish variation thing. In general I would not recommend that a lion and trigger be kept together. Triggers as a general rule can be quite nippy and go after the fins of the lionfish. That is a definite risk and it may spell trouble. Some triggers may be more passive though. But I've had several triggers go after my hands, as opposed to lions which held their ground which is why I am often more wary of triggers than lions.
 
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