lfs uses peculiar method?

gonefishn

Member
After reading and reading it seems that everyone allows their invertebrates to adjust to their tanks by something called the drip method or by adding 1/2 cup of water regularly over a couple hours.
I saw my lfs get new critters, plop the bags into the aquariums, wait, then scoop up the annemonies in their hand and place directly into the tank?
What happens to these criters? Will they be ok?
 

ophiura

Active Member
Well, there are a couple of issues.
The general problem at the LFS is that they are getting animals in that have been in transit for a long time. This leads to an increase in ammonia in the shipping bags, and a decrease in pH (due to respiration - carbon dioxide plus water = carbonic acid which reduces pH). But at lower pH, the ammonia is less toxic. So LFS are walking a line. Certainly fish can adapt to salinity changes rapidly...so the thought is to get them out of the bags ASAP, rather than acclimating, because as they acclimate, pH will increase, and ammonia will become toxic.
Inverts it is a trade off between ammonia toxicity and the fact many can not adapt to salinity changes extremely well.
Also, the sheer magnitude involved at many LFS to acclimate all the animals they get in a shipment would be incredible. Probably would show up in higher prices, and people are already reluctant to pay higher prices.
In short, they lose many animals from shipping and acclimation stress.
As a buyer, this means you have to be aware of when the animals came in. Most fish mortality occurs 48-72 hours after arrival. I would never buy a new fish. Some of the very best LFS will mark the arrival date for fish on the tank, or you can ask about how long the fish has been there.
Definitely look for behavior in inverts. Obviously buy things that are moving around. If possible, buy an animal that has been at the shop several weeks, if you can.
 

gonefishn

Member
The most peculiar thing about that is that the sick looking ones stay in the shop the longest? The "bleached" look.
 

bang guy

Moderator
That migh work with most Anemone but it wouldn't work well with most other inverts especially Echinoderms, crustaceans and snails. These animals suffer easily from osmotic shock and can receive lethal damage if transferred quickly to a different salinity. The damage can be immediate or it could take 3 or 4 weeks for the damage to show up.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Yeah, it was always really frustrating to see it happen with those guys. Probably a reason that there is always a nice pile of dead snails in the bottom of many LFS tanks...and a fair number of disintegrating seastars. I convinced the owner when I worked there to at least allow me to acclimate Linckia stars. But as their specific gravity was still too low, I generally hoped they wouldn't carry them, and they usually didn't.
Depressing.
Anyway, it is true that you sometimes see "sickly" looking animals there the longest...other issues may come into play such as lighting, diet and other water quality issues being out of wack. So you are looking for things that have been there long enough to avoid potential acclimation death - but not so long that they are suffering from substandard conditions. Not an easy choice sometimes!
 

gonefishn

Member
I have to say though, there is a guy a bit down the road who just finished setting up a quarantine/hospitol with a whole bunch of "rooms" in the back of his pet shop. They plan on aclimating the fish back there till they are stable then moving them into tanks up front. It is very impressive and after this discussion it makes me think perhaps that is the place to buy fish from around here.
 

lion_crazz

Active Member

Originally posted by Gonefishn
I have to say though, there is a guy a bit down the road who just finished setting up a quarantine/hospitol with a whole bunch of "rooms" in the back of his pet shop. They plan on aclimating the fish back there till they are stable then moving them into tanks up front. It is very impressive and after this discussion it makes me think perhaps that is the place to buy fish from around here.

That definitely sounds like a good store to me!
 

fishnerd

Member
Originally posted by ophiura
Well, there are a couple of issues.
The general problem at the LFS is that they are getting animals in that have been in transit for a long time. This leads to an increase in ammonia in the shipping bags, and a decrease in pH (due to respiration - carbon dioxide plus water = carbonic acid which reduces pH). But at lower pH, the ammonia is less toxic. So LFS are walking a line. Certainly fish can adapt to salinity changes rapidly...so the thought is to get them out of the bags ASAP, rather than acclimating, because as they acclimate, pH will increase, and ammonia will become toxic.
I used to manage a large LFS, and did acclimations knowing what Ophiura stated.
1) I would float the bags for 30 minutes or so, while filling a bunch of 5 gal buckets with system water- then put airstones in each bucket.
2)I would then take a couple random new fish bags, and test their pH and salinity. I would use Sodium Biphosphate (pH down), to drop the bucket's pH, as well as adjusting salinity, to that of the incoming fish.
3)Dump the fish bags thru a net, discarding the incoming water, and place the fish into the buckets.
4)Over the course of 1-3 hours (depending on incoming pH) I would raise the bucket's pH with bicarb (pH up) until it was at 8.0-8.2.
5) Add new fish to dimly lit display tanks.
6) On day 2, I would turn the lights back on.
Bucket vs. tank temp was not an issue, as we heated the whole fishroom, rather than heating the tanks.
This method proved very effective, unlike the drip acclimation. As Ophiura stated, as the pH goes up, so does the toxicity of ammonia. Drip methods bring up the pH, but also bring up the ammonia. Dripping is fine for the trip from LFS to home. Fish bagged for over 24hrs, should NOT be drip acclimated.
 

rubberduck

Active Member

Originally posted by Gonefishn
I have to say though, there is a guy a bit down the road who just finished setting up a quarantine/hospitol with a whole bunch of "rooms" in the back of his pet shop. They plan on aclimating the fish back there till they are stable then moving them into tanks up front. It is very impressive and after this discussion it makes me think perhaps that is the place to buy fish from around here.

sounds like a good lfs:yes:
 

sprang

Member
I tested the salinity of one of our lfs and the s.g. was .016. How in the crap can anything live in that? My other lfs where I usually go is .024 and he keeps the fish from sale for 2 weeks before he puts them out.
 
O

osufarker

Guest

Originally posted by sprang
I tested the salinity of one of our lfs and the s.g. was .016. How in the crap can anything live in that? My other lfs where I usually go is .024 and he keeps the fish from sale for 2 weeks before he puts them out.

That is normal for many Fish Only fish setups. Keeping the salinity low keeps the spread of disease down.
My LFS has a main system for fish with lower salinity and a separate system for inverts and corals with normal salinity.
I think this is common practice at most fish stores.
 

gonefishn

Member
What an eye opener:eek:
You know I'd been noticing dead snails at quite a few LFSs. Here I thought they were for the hermit crabs:nervous:
That shiping thing is a big difficulty sounds like. So when you get things from online airmailed it is the same sort of problem perhaps?
Is this acclimation thing any easier on the corals?
 

ophiura

Active Member
Also keep in mind that the LFS may be using different systems - FO systems are commonly kept under "hyposalinity" but the invert systems may be kept higher....even if it seems like there may only be one system.
 

lion_crazz

Active Member

Originally posted by sprang
o.k. now Im confused? So If I have fish and Inverts what should I keep my salinity at?

If you have inverts, your salinity should be no lower than 1.022, but ideally, it should be between 1.023 and 1.025.
 

bang guy

Moderator
IMO Salinity should be no lower than 35ppt regardless of the Specific Gravity. 35 - 37ppt is what is typically found on the reefs and higher in the Red Sea if you're keeping those animals.
 

ophiura

Active Member
I agree...FO systems are kept artificially low, and do not reflect normal environmental conditions for those fish...it just so happens the can adapt to it...but it is not natural, IMO.
We've got that confusing pH, calcium and alkalinity relationship that gets people scratching their head :notsure: ...but there is also the temperature, salinity and specific gravity relationship too!
Nothing is plain and simple. :D

Ideally, get a nice refractometer and follow salinity as Bang mentions.
 

bang guy

Moderator
LOL and to make it more complex there's a little known Calcium - Salinity relationship that joins everything together....
 
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