Life WithOut My Protein Stripper- Skimmer less Week 4 expo

druluv

druluv

Member
Hi Everyone:
I Have embarked on a journey few will take. I'm going to attempt to start a full scale reef tank with just a refugium system.
Yes thats right not protein stripper! I'll update you guys once a week with pics and a status of how the tank is doing:
I'm also highlighting the growth, maintance, and ups and downs of a reef aquarium. Let me Know What you think.
Experiment Details Started 4/16/04:
Tank Specs:
180 Gal - Custom Design w/ two overflows
45 Gal refugium- Live Sand & Miracle Mud & Fuge Creatures (Dual Returns)
fuge creatures: (These Creatures Keep the fuge clean from algae, and detritus)
I add photoPlankton to help with the critters offspring.
sand bed clams
Baby Bristle Worms
MicroHermits
Nerite Grazers
trocus grazers
turbo grazers
Strombus Grazers
Nassarius Snails
Bubble Bee Snails
Amphipods
spaghetti Worms
mini-Hawaiian Reef Brittle Stars
Fuge Plants
Grape Cualerpa
Feather Cualerpa
Shaving Brush
Gold Tang Heaven
Red Tang Heaven
Ulva Blade
Fuge Lights:
Coral Life 130 watt power compact (65watt 10K & 65watt actinic)
Regular 18 watt atinic buld (coral life)
Filtration:
One Fuge custom built System
Live Rock (display & Fuge - Fullied Cured for a year (Tonga Branch, Fuji, Marshall)
No mechanical
Pumps:
return : mag 2400 Pump 2200 Gph
powerheads: via aqua 3600 - 1000 gph, sen 500 - 474 gph
Turn over = 16
Salt:
Tropic Marin
Calcium Supp:
B-ionic Calcium Buffer System - ESV - every day - 30ML of both to help Coraline production
Neilisen Reactor -PM -using EVS KALK -
Ultra life Top-off hook-up to a float switch -
dosed by aqua-medic dosing pump - Should Help precipate PO4
Phosphate Reactor - tlf - rowaphos - maxi-jet 500 pump
Calicum Reactor - PM - coming soon
Reef Advantage Calcium - twice Bi Weekly(if needed)
Reef Builder - twice bi weekly(If needed)
Water Supply - Kent Max deluxe ro/di filter
Weekly water changes - Nutri-seawater (Natural Live Ocean Saltwater)
Food
Frozen - tlf mixed veggies,cytopleeze, Mysis, Brine, water fleas, soaked in ecosytem garlic elixer, vita-chem, selcon
inverts - squid is added to the above mixure.
Lighting
4 160 watt uri bulbs - ice cap ballast(2) (3 Actinic and 1 10K)
1 250 watt MH 10k
1 coral vue led nite light - Excellent View Light
5 watts per gallon
4 MH 400 Watts- Coming Soon
Lighting Duration
Morning Sun-light approx - 4hrs -
2 vho actinics - 12hrs
1 vho actinics & 1 - 10 K bulbs - 11hrs
250 watt MH 10K - 8 hrs
Temperature Control -
1 50 watt heater
1/2hp chiller Pacific coast
Water Parms
NO2- undetectable - sea chem
NO3- 2 ml/g - sea chem
PO4- undetectable - sea chemPH- 8.0 sea chem AMNotes:Live Stock: Date status
Fish:
Yellow tang med - 4/07/04
Blue Regal med - 4/15/04
maroon clown tiny - 4/15/04
Engineer goby - med- 4/15/04
Kole Tang - med- 4/20/04
yellow pymgy angel -med - 4/20/04
Neon Blue Gobies-4/22/04
Blue Devil Dasmel -4/26/04
Bagg. Cardinal -4/26/04
Coral:
Soft
Sarcophyton sp- - 4/15/04
Green finger - 4/17/04
ToadStool Leather - 4/22/04
LPS
Fox Coral(Jasmine) - 4/20/04
Bubble Coral - White - 4/22/04
Candy Cane - 4/22/04
Button Coral - 4/22/04
Plate Coral - Orange - 4/22/04
Hammer Coral - green tips - 5/05/04
Polps
Pumping Xenia - 4/22/04
Green umbrella Mushroom - 4/20/04
Green ricordea Mushroom - 4/20/04
Polyp on a rock - 4/20/04
Mushroom rocks - 4/20/04
Zoo-Pink Finger - 5/06/04
Zoo-Pink Eye - 5/06/04
Zoo-Intense Pink Splotch - 5/06/04
Zoo-No ID - 5/06/04
Zoo-No ID - 5/06/04
Clams
Dersa Clam - 4/22/04
Tonga Clam Red - 4/27/04
SPS
Montipora Encrusting Orange - 4/22/04
Leaf Plate Montipora - 4/22/04
Montipora digita w/ blue tips - 4/22/04
INVERTS:
clump ball sponge - 3/15/04
sand sifter star - 4/15/04
blood red cleaner shrimp - 4/17/04
cleaner shrimp - 4/17/04
hermit crabs - Solid workers
Sand sifting cucumbers - 4/19/04
various Snails - Solid Workers
Sally Light Foot - 4/20/04 - Very Good algae eater, must have
sand sifting crabs -
Cleaner Clams - Should Help with cleaning the water
Rose Bubble Tip Anemone - 4/22/04
Future wish List:
More rare inhabitants- reef safe eel, reef safe angel, interresting Sps Corals.
Tank Status:
Week four of the experiment:
I have added different assortment of corals and reef safe fish.Here are a couple new member pics. Please understand that camera is only a 1.3 mega pixs. So i'll try my best.
Problems To OverCome:
Need To Add More Flow
Need To Add More Light
Need To Add More Sand bed Critters
Soft and Hard Corals Living Together
Blue Regal Tangs and Parasites
Things I Like Best about the Tank
1. Good Coraline Growth
2. New organisms popping up in the Fuge.
3. Fish Are Eating
4. Crappy Hood I built but saved over $200 dollars - Used it buy a HQI ballast
Newbie Tips do's:
1. Patience - Give Tank time to grow
2. Research - Everybody is a master reefer, take everyting with a grain of salt, and do your own home work.
3. Aclimate properly - when fish come in those overnight bags the ph is about 7.8.
Newbie Tips dont's:
1.Buy too much live stock for delivery - Take too much time to properly acclimate everything.
 
csrobe02

csrobe02

Member
Green star polyps...
I believe that you are going to mess up your experiment, not because you dont have a protein skimmer, but because you are moving too fast. I have seen kip warn you about this, and you still move as if there is no tomorrow.
How long have you had that clam? I looks like a croacea (sp?) or maxima... both of which are the hardest clams to care for. I have had my tank running for a little over a year and done much research on clams, and there is still ALOT that I dont know, which I why I have yet to purchase one.
Back to my first point, your experiment is to show that a reef tank can be done without a skimmer. IMO it is a good experiment, because logially it can be done, and would have liked to see your results. But I think that you are going to start losing corals due to lack of knowledge, rather than the lack of protein skimming.
Hope this did not come across as a flame of any sort, just my opinion. I have seen kip say about the same thing I said, but I jused wanted to give you my opinion in my own words.
 
footbag

footbag

Active Member
Fish:
Yellow tang med - 4/07/04
Blue Regal med - 4/15/04
maroon clown tiny - 4/15/04
Engineer goby - med - 4/15/04
Kole Tang - med - 4/20/04
yellow pymgy angel -med - 4/20/04
Neon Blue Gobies -4/22/04
Blue Devil Dasmel -4/26/04
Bagg. Cardinal -4/26/04
Coral:
Soft
Sarcophyton sp- - 4/15/04
Green finger - 4/17/04
ToadStool Leather - 4/22/04
LPS
Fox Coral(Jasmine) - 4/20/04
Bubble Coral - White - 4/22/04
Candy Cane - 4/22/04
Button Coral - 4/22/04
Plate Coral - Orange - 4/22/04
Hammer Coral - green tips - 5/05/04
Polps
Pumping Xenia - 4/22/04
Green umbrella Mushroom - 4/20/04
Green ricordea Mushroom - 4/20/04
Polyp on a rock - 4/20/04
Mushroom rocks - 4/20/04
Zoo-Pink Finger - 5/06/04
Zoo-Pink Eye - 5/06/04
Zoo-Intense Pink Splotch - 5/06/04
Zoo-No ID - 5/06/04
Zoo-No ID - 5/06/04
Clams
Dersa Clam - 4/22/04
Tonga Clam Red - 4/27/04
SPS
Montipora Encrusting Orange - 4/22/04
Leaf Plate Montipora - 4/22/04
Montipora digita w/ blue tips - 4/22/04
INVERTS:
clump ball sponge - 3/15/04
sand sifter star - 4/15/04
blood red cleaner shrimp - 4/17/04
cleaner shrimp - 4/17/04
hermit crabs - Solid workers
Sand sifting cucumbers - 4/19/04
various Snails - Solid Workers
Sally Light Foot - 4/20/04 - Very Good algae eater, must have
sand sifting crabs -
Cleaner Clams - Should Help with cleaning the water
Rose Bubble Tip Anemone - 4/22/04
Wow thats a lot to add in one month...How long has the tank been set up?
Also you use that natural seawater? That can be a pretty expensive waterchange in a 180g.
 
golfish

golfish

Active Member

Originally posted by druluv
Hi Everyone:
I Have embarked on a journey few will take. I'm going to attempt to start a full scale reef tank with just a refugium system.
Yes thats right not protein stripper!
you make it sound like knowbody has done this but your just like most newbie's who start a reef tank (my self included) If you did a little research you'll find that most peope start a reef tank with a cheap, worthless skimmer, its just the same as going skimmerless.
You should really listen to your newbie tips and try to follow them. Your bound to fail at the rate your going. Not because your going skimmerless (that means squat to me) its because your going way way too fast.
I for one don't believe you have a setup, or at least the one you claim to have.
 
phreakemup

phreakemup

Member
I personally think we have another beaslebob on our hands.. Just remember Murphy's Law Dru....
Also, remember that what works for u (for now anway) will not work for everyone..
Phreak
 
druluv

druluv

Member
Actually Kip - The Blue Regal Tang does have ich and side lesion. I'm going to include this as another newbie tip.
When buying fish from the lfs, be very careful and ask question about the handling of their fish. The blue tang has actually
gotten better. He had developed a very bad side lesion on his body about two weeks ago. When I went back to the fish store
to look at the tanks, I notice all of the tanks had ich. I was very disappointed with my lfs. I order two other tangs from
swf.com and they have been thriving with no sign of ich. It is hard to get good pic because they are pretty shy.
I thought fore sure the ich would spread to the other tangs, but I believe the byproducts that caulerpa put out saved the other
tangs and is healing the blue tang.
Based on this observation, this actually strengthen my believe on a skimmerless set-up. There are certain intangibles that fuge
plants provide for my tank. I certainly believe if I had a protein stripper that pure blue tang would have certainly die.
Now I feed him garlic soak brine w/ spirulina flake, tlf sea veggies, and ocean nutrition two. This diet along with the healing powers of the fuge, should make him a healthy specimen.
 
footbag

footbag

Active Member
I thought fore sure the ich would spread to the other tangs, but I believe the byproducts that caulerpa put out saved the other
Please elaborate...
Also I would set up a QT just in case.
 
druluv

druluv

Member
Thanks for the input CSRobe02
I will heed your warning, but I have developed a good system on how to introduce corals into a captive system. Gone are the days, where you have to wait many years to introduce a mushroom coral. The tank has been running from middle Feb. It was filled with tap water that had po4 of over 1 (BB would be proud), now it is undetectable even though it is highly stress with overstocked inhabitants. Go figure.
 
phreakemup

phreakemup

Member
what does a protein skimmer have to do w/ a parasite?? U can have healthy, disease resistant fish w/ or w/o a protien skimmer.. I too run skimmerless, not for the same reasons as u though... I personally think u are doing it, just to go against the norm, and not for any other reason at all.. Ur arguments really have no hold to them... U say ur fish are healthier w/o a skimmer, do u have a tank w/ a skimmer to compare them to?? Do u have a control for ur experiment?? U say that the reefs dont have a skimmer, well, ur right, but they are also not a controlled enviornment, a reefs is 1000's of years of perfections, that only takes decades to destroy... So u really need to do a little more research..
As far as adding fish too fast, I urge u to slow down, if u came to the LFS that I work at, I would have stopped selling u fish a while ago, tilt he tank matured.. There is now way u can have a mature enough tank for all the animals u have, in 1 month, protien skimmer (or u say stripper) or not..... It jsut doesnt happen, things take time, espeically an ecosystem which is what u are trying to duplicate.... Good luck to u and ur fish (mostly to ur fish)
Phreak
 
druluv

druluv

Member

Originally posted by footbag
Please elaborate...
Also I would set up a QT just in case.
No problem footbag:
Caulerpa hastens the oxidation of catabolites. Phycocollides are also produced, which are large non-crystalline molecules that are often referred to as seaweed gums. These are similar to the ingredients used in water conditioners for aquaria and when introduced to the water a thin sticky emulsion results, which acts as a coating agent. For people with fuge/protein strippers This is some of the green stuff they are so proud to throw down their toliets.
These emulsions are called colloides, which, since they diffuse easily through living tissue, can protect fish from skin and gill disorders. T
It's also long been known that marine algae, including Caulerpa, contain several substances that have a significant antibiotic effect towards fungal diseases and those caused by pathogenic bacteria.
 
druluv

druluv

Member
PhreakEmUp - Thanks for you insight, you are pretty funny. After buying this regal tang from the lfs, I have stop buying fish from lfs, so don't worry about the stock at your fish store. I find that the lfs around here are poorly handled and take care of their tanks poorly. I'm done with buying fish from LFS. If I see nice looking small frag fully open (like the small hammer I posted), then i will buy it, but fish no.
One thing I'm proud of, is the health of the fish.
I bought a very small bi-percula. So small he would slip through the little slits of the overflow box continously. I had to always net him out of the overflow box.I bought him severly overstress with torn fins and fleash missing from his top fin; I had to save him. I kick myself after buying him, but After three weeks of fuge filtration and a healthly rich diet of brine with spirulina he is now a lazy fat fish chillin in his RBTA. I'm a believer, more and more every day
 
druluv

druluv

Member
You are very fortunate to have Tangs with no sign of ich. Ich is not in my system. It was introduced when I brought the Blue tang home from the lfs. I'm very lucky it didn't spread to the Kole and Yellow tang that I bought from swf.com. A good plug for swf.com. But the fuge system itself is able to strenghten this pure blue tang that was sick. I'm happy I resuced him from the lfs.
Kip It was a tiny Premnas biaculeatus sorry about that.
 
golfish

golfish

Active Member
Warning, Warning...before reading post from Druluv please put on your waders...Its getting pretty deep here
 
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