Life WithOut My Protein Stripper- Skimmer less Week 4 expo

rwhite

rwhite

Member
I've been trying to keep out of this as hard as I can cause I'm no expert by far. We've only had our reef running for a little over a year so my experience is limited. In that year we've learned a lot of valuable lessons--Here are a few: Overstocking is easy, correcting the problem is difficult esp. when diseases are involved. Patience and timing are hard, esp. when the only advice one gets is from only 1 or 2 sources (LFS in particular). Chemicals and macros are not cure alls. These are but a few and all I can say is THANK YOU to all the people who have helped us along the way from this board. There are many ways to skin a cat, but why discount the many proven methods presented on the board? I mean, really, no protein skimmer? That one item seems trivial when you're running a phos. reactor, a large fuge and all the other components. No mechanical filtration? Sounds like you have some to me. Granted, much of your export comes from the biological filter, but without the phos reactor, I think you may run into problems.
My take on a few of the items discussed: If 1 fish had ich, your system has ich. Since you have a large system, it may take a little more time for it to rear its ugly head again. I dont wish it on anyone, been there and lost almost all our fish. I truly hope your problem has been solved.
Amount of livestock too fast, this where my ich problem started I think. I also feel that you have added too much too quickly. How could the bacteria keep up with such a bioload?
The curative properties of macro, I'd have to read those reports to truly believe that. Doubting Thomas.
Gotta cut this short, starting to rain and I'm on the deck wireless. Be back in a few.
 
steveweast

steveweast

Member
I'm not quite sure why everyone has to oppose Dru so vehemently. If Dru wants to turn the clock back to 1980, then that is his business. I kept a reef in 1980.... with no skimmer (since they weren't available yet). We all had modest success back then as long as the chosen corals were tolerant of the higher nutrient levels that came with the high bio-loads. Back then, we were pretty much limited to mushrooms, leathers, hammers, and such.... that naturally came from a higher nutrient lagoonal setting to begin with. If this is Dru's goal, then he, too, will have some success..... and probably more.... since we didn't have kalk reactors, phosphate reactors, or calcium reactors back then either. What I still want to see is "the model". Where's the photo of the extraordinary skimmerless reef that so sets the goal standard as to even warrant going skimmerless??? I've seen lots of skimmerless systems (hell, I used to have one)... and none of them are what I consider to be very inspirational. On the other hand, I've seen lots of inspirational reefs with skimmers. If Dru is thinking that he is blazing new ground, then he is sadly mistaken. He is going where thousands have been before...including me.
 
druluv

druluv

Member
Thanks Steve for your input. I do disagree with you though that higher level corals can be kept in a skimmerless environment.
In addition, in the 80's people really didn't understand the importance powerful lighting and extreme water movement. That is why many tanks fail at that time.
You are successful with your tank and the way you do things. You have made good points in the past, that is why I use a PO4 reactor. I never said I was doing anything new, but I'm getting rip like am setting new ground. I don't mind the comments and advice; I hope it makes me a better reefer.
I feel that protein strippers are good tool to have, but I hate its bad side affects. Master reefer like you have been able to counter the bad side affects of the protein stripper, and I have to tip my hat off to you. Though the style I'm using is old way of doing a reef, I feel like its a good way of doing things, there is much techology out there that can improve this style of reefing.
 
steveweast

steveweast

Member
Dru... I'm all in favor of your wanting to explore other methodolgies...both new and old (btw, I had halides in the 80's). What I would like to understand is.... with all the examples of some pretty stunning reefs with skimmers out there and none without skimmers (unless you have an example of one)...why go down this road? and if you do want to go down this road, which again I'm all in favor of, please place disclaimers on the risk (especially with your being in the infancy of your project). There are alot of folks who may inadvertantly follow you down your experimental road.
 
druluv

druluv

Member

Originally posted by skilos1
yup she has a nice tank. also runs a protien skimmer

"30 gal. ProSeries wet/dry filter w/ bioballs removed. Stock in-sump skimmer
that has been tweaked{Keith Gay, Aquatic Designs} to skim better.
Kent carbon 1 wk/month
"
Not the tank on the web site. She has a 180 like mines with tons of arco and only a mud system. It is in the same book steve is in.
 
rwhite

rwhite

Member
Back again. Nice to hear from steve on this, always the voice of reason. I dont think that anyone is really opposing the idea, I feel that most people are more concerned with the speed at which livestock was added and dru may be headed for a crash that may have been avoided. We were extremely sad to have our fish die off due to improper practices. It just sounds a bit far fetched that a fuge will take care of any problems that may arise, including a possible ich outbreak. I believe that the homework has been done, I just dont think the info is being put into practice. Giving newbie advice on patience and then adding that amount of livestock in a month seems a bit contradictory. I just dont believe that not having a skimmer will facilitate the ability to add livestock more quickly. Its got to take some time for the bacteria to "catch up". As I said I'm no expert and want the tank to succeed, putting the skimmer issue aside: Has ANYONE had success adding that amount of livestock within a month? First and foremost, I'm here to learn. Like I said before, I'm a Doubting Thomas; gotta have some proof. Looking forward to more updates.
Just a question for dru real quick: If you understood the need for lighting and flow, why did you start with "sub-standard" equipment? Was it equip. you already had? Are you going to add to the current list or replace the items? If you replace them, will you sell the current equip? Sorry, if thats too abrupt.
 
rwhite

rwhite

Member
Sorry, thats why I used quotations. What I meant was why start with the pcs/vhos if that was not your long term goal? Or, as I asked before, are you simply adding the mhs to the system as part of the plan. Same with the flow, you seem to have an idea what direction you want to go why not have all the equipment ready to go? No offense meant by the sub-standard thing, just couldnt think of the right way to put it.
 
steveweast

steveweast

Member
Sorry Dru that it took so long to respond....
Sue's tank is a very nice tank and is filtered with ecosystem only (miracle mud and no skimmer). However, there are a few other points that must be pointed out...... she has a very low fish load (as stated in Palletta's book) which she feels enables her to keep a low nutrient level. I searched around a bit and couldn't find an updated photo or even a description of how her tank is currently doing. In Palleta's book, it states that the tank was set up in Dec of 2000 and that the photos were taken 9 months later in Sep 2001....that's not long enough to validate her methodology...a start maybe......but, not long enough to determine if nutrient inputs were being balanced by her ecosystems ability to remove them.
A better example, perhaps, for you to cite is the tank of Steve Tyree....one of the sps gurus. He has a skimmerless system but exports nutrients through a series of large external tanks that grow macro algaes, sponges,etc (some that are lit and some that are cryptic). He also has zero fish since his passion is coral.
It all comes down to... as you would correctly say... balance. The nutrient inputs must equal the exports no matter through what methodology. It's just that there are few things that can remove nutrients as efficiently as skimmers....especially with the way most reefers pack their tanks to the top with livestock (myself included). Hopfully, your bio-loads levels will not outpace your natural filter's ability to keep pace. Good luck...
 
druluv

druluv

Member
Thanks again Steve, another good example of a mud filtered tank would be Des Ong too.
I agree with the skimmer comment, but I feel that the skimmer is too efficient for my taste. People actually think that because the gunk looks bad it is bad. I feel that some of the gunk is bad but some of the gunk is good. I think Cualerpa can be just as good at taking out harmful nutrients as a skimmer, plus release helpful by products into water for the fish.
Thanks Again for the input, can't wait for the site.
 
druluv

druluv

Member
Even though I don't agree with everyone on this message board, I have learned a lot still and welcome the all of the comments. Not only me has gained a weath of knowledge, I'm sure these threads had spread more research and more respect for the hobby. :)
Thanks Everyone. See Next Friday with the update.
Just Got My 400 watt ushios with pulse start, after 20 minutes of firing it up my monti w/blue tips woke up with its polyps extended. I only kept it on for 30 minutes though, I'm afraid I will light shock them.
In addition, if all else fails I do have a kent nautils te skimmer, I don't know if its good but I do have one for emergencies.
 
leboeuf

leboeuf

Member
this is a nice tank that utilizes macro and no skimmer. It also demonstrates a large fish load with nice SPS growth...hum...
 
druluv

druluv

Member
where were you while I was getting hammered.
Nice Tank
When I grow up I wanna be just like you.
 
smoothounds

smoothounds

Member
Good luck to you brotha. My favorite reef that I have had didnt have a skimmer. You just have to keep up with the water changes. I currently run them on my tanks but I do so many water changes Im sure I could do without em.
 
drkdweller

drkdweller

Member
All i got to say is LOL. Poor fish poor corals. Its not the money it's the lack of respect for life. Tanks will crash and to him it will be nothing. heck he'll proboly blame it on something else. and still stick to his ground.
 
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