Lionfish in the Bahamas

[ophiura]

Just got back from San Salvador Bahamas. If you are not familiar with it, it is one of the out islands. First day in the water, first 10 minutes....a lionfish!
Over successive days, we saw loads, and others reported seeing dozens. So they are firmly established now throughout the Bahamas, probably the whole Caribbean.
In talking to some of the scientists there, it is thought now the introduction was quite possibly a wholesaler in Florida. I guess this company had a tendancy to release any sick fish instead of destroying them, and due to the reproduction of lionfish they have spread quickly. Definitely well established, breeding and likely making a significant impact on local species.
It was quite a shock to see.

 

[scrombus2]

I live on the "Treasure Coast" of Florida and have seen several Lions on the reefs of South Florida, Off Palm Beach, Boynton Bch, and points south. I've been diving the reefs here and the Bahamas for 20 years and have seen my share of exotic species.I just today, caught a damsel as yet unidentified, and I've never seen one -ever- in 20 years. I'll post a pic and id tomorrow.

 

[louti]

Out of curiosity, how deep were you diving when you saw the lionfish? I know they have bee noff the coast of FL all the way up to the Carolinas for some years now, but I've only heard of them spotted on deep dives (like 100 ft or so).

 

[ophiura]

Snorkeling - 5 to 10 feet

 

[jaymz]

they are fairly established off the coasts of the carolinas too..

 

[alexmir]

In talking to some of the scientists there, it is thought now the introduction was quite possibly a wholesaler in Florida. I guess this company had a tendancy to release any sick fish instead of destroying them, and due to the reproduction of lionfish they have spread quickly. Definitely well established, breeding and likely making a significant impact on local species.
Some people are SO irresponsible! are the lionfish affecting the local fish populations and that is why it is a problem? or is it just strange that there are lots of them in an environment where they did not originate?

 

[morval]

i saw one while i was snorkeling at atlantis (paradise island)last year i thought they might have stocked the lagoon but now i guess not

 

[paintballer768]

Wow Ive never known this, and Ive lived in Boynton Beach forever. I gotta go diving soon so maybe I can see one of these guys in person.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by alexmir
http:///forum/post/2643652
Some people are SO irresponsible! are the lionfish affecting the local fish populations and that is why it is a problem? or is it just strange that there are lots of them in an environment where they did not originate?

They are definitely eating things - and one of the highest "infestations" was in a tidal lagoon with seagrass and mangroves, considered a prime "nursery" for fish. Many, if not most times an animal is introduced into an environment, it causes issues. Often there are no predators, or species may not be adapted defensively. I believe the new focus is to get people to fish for them and eat them.

 

[alexmir]

i gotcha, i can imagine that not many smaller fish are prepared to fight off a huge lionfish. I read a story a while back where someone was careless and spread some algea from a tank into the ocean and it has catastrophic results, the local algeas could not fight it off and it began taking over the sand bed.

 

[beth]

So, is there going to be an effort to eradicate, or reduce the lionfish population, or is basically a lost cause now?

 

[sepulatian]

This may sound silly, but can they not be collected for sale?

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2645083
So, is there going to be an effort to eradicate, or reduce the lionfish population, or is basically a lost cause now?
Probably a lost cause, though many dive masters seem to kill them. It is an interesting study in larval transport I suppose. But probably beyond the point of eradication.
I would certainly propose that they be harvested, but there are rather tight controls on the industry overall in the Caribbean, so it may be hard to make some exceptions if you open the door.

 

[beth]

Perhaps as a conservation effort it could be done. Such beautiful fish. Its a shame to kill them.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2645972
Perhaps as a conservation effort it could be done. Such beautiful fish. Its a shame to kill them.
That is what I am thinking. Why just kill them? If they can kill them when it normally isn't acceptable to do so then why not allow them to be collected for a determined period of time?

 

[beth]

Mostly because there has to be some profit in the collection process, or some financial backing for the retrieval. Most scientists would not back removal for the purpose of handing the fish over to the hobby industry. Likely most of these fish are too large for most aquariums anyway.
We can talk about it here and all, but if any effort was to occur, it would likely be killing them.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2646247
Mostly because there has to be some profit in the collection process, or some financial backing for the retrieval. Most scientists would not back removal for the purpose of handing the fish over to the hobby industry.
Animal rights groups or reef clubs cannot contribute? Distributors collect anyway, why can a special permit not be granted in an area that needs to remove these animals?
Likely most of these fish are too large for most aquariums anyway.
If they are breeding and becoming a menace then surely, at least the young, can be caught. These are not new breeds of lion are they? How is this any different than collection elsewhere, other than rules and regulations?
We can talk about it here and all, but if any effort was to occur, it would likely be killing them.
That is just sad. Really, it is.

 

[ophiura]

There are some alarming stats on the web. Google "Bahamian conservation lionfish blackbeard"
Opening widespread harvest for the aquarium industry may not be encouraged in large part because the aquarium industry is getting the blame - and it is quite possibly warranted - for this in the first place. Allowing such harvest may violate Bahamian conservation laws as, frankly, it can be a disruptive activity. I am not sure what is currently collected, if anything, from the Bahamas.
I do know I was with someone who lives in Florida and who is familiar with this trade. He was quite astonished with the abundance of much of the fauna, because in Florida they are heavily collected. Some of the things he saw commonly in the Bahamas are now more and more rare in Florida. That is an eye opener and should be.
Why should the aquarium trade benefit by having a cheap source of lionfish? IMO, they should be killed outright. Dozens at a time would be possible. How can the small islands of the Bahamas sustain the collection and transport of possibly hundreds of lionfish? Maybe some folks there could make some money on it, but then what would be the motivation to get rid of them? What further damage would it cause to collect them, and what slippery slope would it put us on?
IMO, the only reasonable hope would be killing them, and even then, I suspect they are too late. The reality is that scientists are in charge of this, and it is unlikely that they will buy in, wholeheartedly, to collection for the aquarium trade. JMO, of course, but I think it unlikely.

 

[sepulatian]

Susan, you think that it is better to kill these animals then to collect them and have them put into homes? I understand the "slippery slope" of opening the area to collection. Surely it is better to get the lions into appropriate homes than to murder them though, isn't it? They didn't ask to be put there. I am not taking about encouraging the world to come and collect in this area. Maybe I am too optimistic. I suppose boats going out there would collect a lot more than just the lions. It seems like a real shame to me to kill all of these animals though.

 

[ophiura]

Yup, IMO they should be killed...as soon as possible. It is ecology, IMO, that is more important than some fish. I don't get a great thrill out of killing animals, but there is a point which you have to set some of that aside.
These are highly destructive animals, with massive and potentially devastating impact on the ecosystem when introduced someplace they do not belong. Invasive species are rarely harmless or beneficial, or even nuetral in an ecosystem. If allowed to get established, they can completely overrun naturally occuring species (eg, zebra mussels, the seastar Asterias amurensis, caulerpa).
Their impact could be far wider and greater than the possible moral "cost" of destroying the fish. We can not turn this into a profitable industry because then there is no motivation to remove them then.
Not to mention what do many collectors do to catch the fish they want? Often they destroy many other things in the process, whether caught or not.
Make no mistake about it, a huge number of fish collected in this hobby die for no reason other than someone wanted to put them in a tank. We must consider that when we are engaged in this hobby. The scientific community at large often is not impressed by the aquarium hobby in the slightest. Two major invasive issues, lionfish and Caulerpa taxifolia, are pretty much linked to the saltwater aquarium industry...which is, basically, pure personal entertainment. Then we consider things like snakeheads as well...anyway, scientists find that a bit difficult to explain away.
I think killing them to try and mitigate their impact on an ecosystem is far more important. However I would also argue it is probably too late to remove them for good, but I think it may be possible to erradicate them from certain locales.