Listless Fish Problem

[pufferlover]

Have a interesting thing going on and one I have not had before. After doing my normal Tuesday water change on Wedsnaday I noticed my baby Stars and stripes Puff and its buddy the baby Spanish Hogfish (in their 20 gal temp tank) were becoming very listless and breathing heavy (the Hog had never done this before- Puffs sometimes just hang around anyway) at one point they had wedged themselves one next to the other between a decoration and the glass and just sort of hung there for hours. Decided to do another 5 gal wc and change the pads in their 2 filters with new carbon, add 2ml trace elements and wait till today. By the way last night the Puff ate the Hog did not for the first time since I got him (bad sign to me). This morning no real change so since there are no spots at all on either fish and readings seem normal I am stumped on this one. Decided to go for it since I have a feeling no action is going to be the end of them. Decided to go with my Paragon2 wide spectrum powder that is supposed to do both parasitic and bacterial problems (only product I have seen that claims to do both- and I have used it before with success for parasitic problems). Have gone with recommended 2 tsp plus 2 tsp of intensive care from same company which is supposed to be used to boost O2 levels when using the P2. Have turned lights off for now and see what happens next. Reason for this post is to see if anyone based on my imput has seen this before. Tretament with these products is 3times over 5 days so we will see if it works and helps them.

 

[beth]

Oh yeah I've seen it and heck if I know what it is ! Depressed fish? I have seen fish do this, then snap out of it for awhile but then revert back to it, eventually dying by starvation...no appararent signs of disease. I don't have an answer for it.

 

[pufferlover]

Interesting you said that I checked all my books (there I go again-no quotes tho) and the only things I can find that might fit are Benedenia (a trematode parasite) or maybe Dactylogrus (a gill parasite) who knows I notice now the stars is loosing its slime coating (another clue maybe?). The Hog is hiding now and I don't want to go looking for it yet the Puffer is just sitting in the lettuce clip at the water line looking unhappy. Since doing the med tho it seems not to be breathing as hard as before. Time will tell and I'll let the members know what happens in case they have a similar occurance befall them. This tho is one benefit of a few fish in many of my tanks if I lose this battle I lose only 2 fish but I prefer not to lose any.

 

[pufferlover]

Puffer ate some tonight Hog still hiding somewhere. Noticed Puffer after eating was scraping its side against the substrate (another clue perhaps). Still thinking it is a gill problem of some sort will have to see how the Paragon2 works as time goes on. I hate these types of mystery diseases.

 

[pufferlover]

lost the Hog yesterday. Puffer hanging in got 2nd P2 treatment today ate one piece of silversides that I stuck in its mouth with feeding stick (here I go witht the hand feeding of puffers again). Still no idea what they had but will keep on it. The Puff does have fin spots today but that could be from the stress of everything else. I am used to P2 taking 4 or 5 days to show results if it is going to work.

 

[pufferlover]

Terry; As of this morning Puff looking much better and eating like its old self. P2 is something I use from time to time and have had luck with it but it does make a mess of the tank (which cleans up after first water change). In answer to your question I do use carbon on all my tanks but am open to any thoughts on that as a possiblilty. I think the Puff is going to be fine based on how good he is looking now but it stills has to have 1 more treatment tomorrow then 3 days then if still ok first water change.

 

[pufferlover]

Well got home from work about 930pm and checked on the Puffer and he looks very bad tonight (I don't think he will make it to morning). He was laying on his side at the bottom breathing heavy again and it now looks like he is covered with spots (the ick taking over finally). Will see in am, I am off tomorrow so if he is still with us I am going to go for broke and do a large waterchange and replace the water at .1009 whether it can take that big a drop I do not know but it will be a last chance effort at doing something for the fish. Dipping is out as I have had bad luck in the past and just won't do it anymore (again my personal feelings ). I am thinking I should have gone the copper route but I figured the 7 days it usually takes to work was too long whereas the P2 was a 5 day treatment.
If I lose him then I plan to do a complete waterchange and start the tank at .1009 in hopes of killing any parasites in there. Then have to decide what to do if anything with that tank.

 

[pufferlover]

Well I agree with you that I should have gone the copper route but as of today it is hanging in and still eating. At his point I just did the 3rd P2 treatment and will give it its final 3 days before pulling it. If Mr. S & S is still around and still looking a bit peaked then I will as you say go either hypo or copper (hypo probably better rather then hitting it with 2 meds that close. In a way since I still have no idea what started this it has become a bit of a trial and error thing. I do agree that P2 is not one of my favorites (altho it has worked before for me) and even now I can't say why I picked that out of my supply cabinet to use. Thanks for imput Terry.

 

[pufferlover]

Well it is still hanging in looking better tho but not eating even with the feeding stick. Opens its mouth I put piece of Krill in but unlike before it didn't eat some "oh well". We will see how it goes still no visable spots or marks on its body but it does swim around a bit today. This on going saga is to give the newer members the realization that not everything is explainable nor cast in stone sometimes we have to improvise and hope for the best.

 

[pufferlover]

Well here is latest update. The S & S is still around but not doing much better (he did eat quite a bit tonight on his own). Last night I reverted to my baby syringe and fed it blackworms. It is amazing to me how some fish seem to know you are trying to help them it sat there and opened its mouth when I rubbed the syringe end on its lips and I just filled it up twice (haven't tryed this since the big Puffer problem way back when). Tonight it ate 4 pieces of Krill before loosing interest. I did a 4 gal WC, added carbo back to mop up some of the P2 but decided to drop the salinity to .1009 for a few weeks if the Puff can stand it. I don't think the P2 solved much it may have helped a bit but there is still something bothering this fish. Tppk salinity from .1021 to .1018 tonight will drop it 4 points tomorrow and 4 more on Sunday to hit .1009. Probably should have gone this or copper first time around but I think it was to weak to give me the few days to do either of the other, hopefully it is a bit stronger now. Will report more in a few days. Who ever said this hobby was easy- not I.

 

[beth]

Puffer! You and your ick on pufferfish! Didn't we go thru this last yr, my friend? And didn't hypo work well, then?
I think you should carbon clean that tank, do a partial water change and begin hypo immediately. You can bring the salinity down within 2 days, and perhaps even faster if your fish is holding up. Why are you hesistating?

 

[pufferlover]

Yes I do have my Puff problems. I did start that tonight adding carbon-WC-and dropped it 3 points all at once. Tomorrow night 4 points same Sunday to .1009. This Puff is one of my baby finds and has been fighting me now for close to 5 months. This is its 3rd outbreak after doing well for a couple of months after the 2nd one was cured. You know how sometimes we try different things when we know better (that is reason for this on going saga to show new members we all get ourselves into a fix now and then) the hypo worked on it first time and 2nd time why did I go with Paragon2 this time I have no clue except there were no spots this time just the listless behaviour all of a sudden and then the death of the baby spanish hog so I wasn't sure if it was parasitic. Anyway this little one is a fighter and I am working on it as I did the Big ones way back when. You know the old saying a little knowledge is a bad thing and about the time I think I have most problems figured a new one I haven't seen bites me in the behind. But this baby syringe feeding thing is really something to behold (only have done it on Puffs don't thing other fish would stand still long enough to do it).

 

[pufferlover]

Well todays report on our long going saga is this. As of today we are at .1008-09. S & S still alive looking a bit better but still not eating too much. This will be the third time I have treated this fish since I got it (the most ever for any one fish). What its problem is I have no clue but it is sort of like a experiment now to see if I can bring it back again and keep it healthy. It is alone at this point and has never had more then one tankmate (who died at beginning of this outbreak) in a tank that was one of my best (so go figure). Now at low salinity the next 4 to 5 days should tell the story. More later.

 

[pufferlover]

Well it has been a couple more days and the S & S is still with us but just hanging around wedged between the glass and coral again. Have fed it with my trusty syringe last 2 days just enough to get something in it. It opens its mouth real wide when I brush the end past it in goes the end squirt and the food of choice for that day is in the tummy. I don't have a clue if this would ever work with any other fish then a Puffer but as I said before this is second time I have used this to feed a sick puffer and had them co-operate with my doing so. More to follow in a few days.

 

[pufferlover]

your advice noted Terry B. I would have let these posts drop but I noted how many hits it has had so figure I'll admit something is rotten in my S & S tank and maybe some of those following this will get some ideas for future use. As of tonight same old-wedged in corner . Funny thing is its fins look clear and its color is better but it stills lays around and breathes heavy. Took syringe tonight but would not swallow this time so I pulled back and just let it be for tonight. I can't help but wonder why in a case like this I go so far, but then I realize if you really love the hobby and care (as you should) you will try and try till you win or lose the fish. My big Puffer experience of 6 weeks taught me that you never know when things will turn right if you persist.

 

[pufferlover]

I was going to drop this posting till a final resolution happened but I actually received some e mails asking how it is going so I will give latest report. As of 2 days ago I decided the Hypo was not doing this fish any good. It was laying around breathing heavy and then wedging itself between the glass and coral again. Started the salinity back up (as of today at .1016) fish was a bit more active tonight but frankly the syringe feeding is becoming a bore. My last plan is to get it to .1018 and if fish does not eat I am going for broke and do the Seacure copper regime on it. The fish is by itself in a tank that now probably has no living organisms left so if I must I will try the one thing that has worked the very best for me in these cases. I realize I am now like a mad doctor experimenting with this poor fish but there has to be a answer and by golly I'll find it or finish the poor thing off. I still have no idea of what it has but as I have said before this salt thing is not exact science in all cases. Tomorrow I'll finish salinity raise wait a day and then start the copper.

 

[pufferlover]

Hey Terry don't be offended. I appreciate your thoughts but in this case and after years of handling sick fish I am doing what I consider best. The hypo was too hard on it and now that the salinity is back up it is breathing better. Dips I will not do period I do not have faith in my ability to do it right and am smart enough not to try to do something I am not comfortable attempting. Anyway I have not done copper and will not unless the fish shows me a reason to do it. Tonight it was swimming around a bit and actually chased the syringe when I tried to pull it away. Salinity is a .1017 and I will leave it there now for a while. I do agree that by now it should have died if it was Ick or other parasites but it isn't and I will keep working on it. Also, the syringe stops now it will have to eat for itself before I spoil it to much. I do think tho that I acted to fast when the baby Hog died and maybe should have waited a bit longer before figuring I must do something now. I will say tho that this being a new twist to me is just another experience I will learn something from (I hope).

 

[pufferlover]

Good news folks the S & S tonight was swimming around when I got home and at feeding ate on its own for the first time in almost 2 weeks (ate quite a bit of frozen squid). He seems to have color back and I do not see any spots on fins now so maybe the salinity rise (it has been at .1019 for about 3 days now) had a good effect. Terry the P2 and the problem you mentioned may have been the culprit since it is a Dog and smooth skinned it may have been a bad choice to use it and then getting it out and dropping the salinity may have just drove the little thing loopey. I gambled on raising the salinity back after a little over a week but it has seemed to turn it around (I did not copper it decided to wait and see if it would start moving on its own). I really do not like coppering the smooth skinned Puffs as years ago I tried it (before I knew better) a couple of times and the fish ended up turning red and dieing. Later I found copper on smooth skinned fish is a real russian roulette type of treatment. Anyway I think it is going to be fine and this time I am leaving it alone in its tank till down the road when size requires a move elsewhere.
Unless anything changes for the worst I think this saga can end now. "Scotty beam me up my work here is done".

 

[pufferlover]

Thanks Terry I will get some for my supply cabinet. I believe I used it at some point a long time ago but hadn't thought much about it due to the luck I had with SeaCure. Never hurts to have more then one med on hand. It is early Sat and have to go to work so tank lights not on yet hopefully tonight the little one will still be happy and active (I think it is fine now).

 

[pufferlover]

Just another follow up on a slow puter night (everyone must be away except me boo-hoo). The S & S is still with me and still a problem I cannot figure out. One day it will eat some then for a few days won't even try. Still spends lots of time wedged between the coral and glass. No spots on its fins but last night while it was eating for a change it went on a scratching against the rocks frenzy before settling down again. I have no med in tank for over a week and am not going to do anymore medicating at this point. Doing wc every few days and figure I have tried everything and now it is up to the fish to fight whatever it is off on its own. This is turning into the same thing I went thru with my Big Porks last year (not same problem but same drawn out thing). I figure if after 6 weeks they came back this little one can to if it has the fight in it. Win or lose I'll post end result when I have something to report.