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bwonder
Guest
Give me the Pro's and Con's. I just added crushed coral to my 125 gallon in wall tank. Should I have gone with Live Sand?
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thomas712
Guest
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bwonder
Guest
Thomas712 said:Read the third post and the last.
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=80022
QUOTE]
Thanks for the insight! I think I've made a big mistake adding the crushed coral to my tank.Those dam.... salespeople --
I should have asked this question sooner....
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bwonder
Guest
Originally Posted by Thomas712
Read the third post and the last.
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=80022
11000
Thanks for the insight! I think I've made a big mistake adding the crushed coral to my tank.
Those dam.... salespeople --
I should have asked this question sooner....
Read the third post and the last.
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=80022
11000
Thanks for the insight! I think I've made a big mistake adding the crushed coral to my tank.
I should have asked this question sooner....
coachklm
Active Member
yeah this happens alot on a 125 If i were you....i'd do half mixture half live half regular seeded with about 20lbs of established tank sand. ask your LFS for some of their sand from their tanks??? the rest id get carib-sea but your choice.
ARAGONITE sand only plz.....
araga-live is good as well as
carib-sea
ARAGONITE sand only plz.....
araga-live is good as well as
carib-sea
sly
Active Member
I completely disagree with the arguments against crushed coral. You have not made a mistake.
Here are the arguments against crushed coral... It collects detrius: False. Crushed coral does not collect any more detrius than does sand as long as you keep a shallow crushed coral base and have a good cleanup crew. Many people make the mistake of treating crushed coral like sand and the two are not the same. If you have a deep sand bed you will have oxygen poor zones which grow anaerobic (nitrobacter) bacteria. This bacteria is great at reducing nitrate to free nitrogen gas. If you have a deep crushed coral bed however, you will collect detrius throughout the substrate and due to the nature of the large sized particles of crushed coral, you will have fewer oxygen poor zones to house anaerobic bacteria. Instead of reducing nitrates, this setup will create hydrogen sulfide which is extrmely poisonous to the tank.
So stop treating cc like sand and your problems will be solved. Only keep your CC about an inch deep max. Invest in a good cleanup crew and any detrius that collects on the surface will be removed. Cleanup crews are non burrowing. So if you have a deep CC base, they will not remove the detrius that collects just below the surface. If your CC is shallow, most of the ditrius that is in the substrate will be avaliable for consumption by your cleanup crew. Your subtrate will remain clean and you will not have high nitrate readings. If done properly, CC can be virtually maintenance free and your nitrates can remain at 0ppm.
Another argument is that CC increases your nitrates. False: I have had a CC bottom for 4 years now and have never on any test found nitrates since I started keeping the depth shallow. I too had nitrates around 80 when I had about 3 inches of CC on the tank bottom. But since then I have removed the CC down to just enough to cover the bottom and I have added more LR and some macro algae (mangroves) to my refugium. My nitrates are ALWAYS 0ppm. Anaerobic nitrobacter bacteria will live anywhere there are oxygen poor zones. This includes living rock. Invest in some good living rock and get a few powerheads to keep the water moving around them. The nitrobacter in the pores of the living rock will consume the nitrates just like it would in a traditional deep sand bed. The thing about bacteria is that it wants to live where it is easiest to live. If you have a deep sand bed then it is easier for the bacteria to colonize there. But if you don't have a deep sand bed (or crushed coral) then this bacteria will colonize your living rock instead. Which brings me to my next point.
A crushed coral bed done properly will not crash while a deep sand bed will. The thing that causes a tank to crash is when people change something that disturbs the nitrobacter in the tank. They inadvertantly expose it to oxygen either through heavy vacuuming or moving rocks around or simply pouring in their water change water too fast and stiring up their sand bed. Since a proper CC base is too shallow to house anaerobic zones, it will not crash if disturbed since the nitrobacer is not growing there in the first place. Instead the nitrobacter will be living in the pores of your living rock and therefore can not die no matter how much you move things around. The bacteria is protected by the rigid structure of the rock which protects it from over exposure to oxygen.
Crushed coral is heavier than sand so therefore you can use more powerheads to stir the water in the tank. Sand is light and if the water flow is too high, it will float around clouding your tank. With CC you can aim your powerheads directly on your LR and there is less of a chance of your CC becoming waterborne. Therefore you can maintain a higher rate of water transfer on your LR which is the area which benefits most from high water circulation.
CC can be less to maintain than a deep sand bed if done properly. You don't have to walk around on egg shells with CC like you do with a DSB. It is a system whereby polutants in the tank are removed through more stable means like living rock and macros and IMO looks better than plain sand.
In the ocean where you have miles and miles of surface area, sand works well and so does for many people here. But our tanks are not the ocean and are more succeptable to changes that can cause problems. IMO, it is not good to rely on your substrate to remove nitrates in such a small closed system. There are better, more stable means of reducing nitrates that are still natural, ie. living rock and macros. If you don't give your substrate the opportunity to colonize nitrobacter bacteria and instead let it grow in your LR, you will achieve the same nitrate reduction as you would with a deep sand bed but not have to deal with the consequences if you mess it up (or a deep burrowing fish). I would never switch back to sand from CC.
Here are the arguments against crushed coral... It collects detrius: False. Crushed coral does not collect any more detrius than does sand as long as you keep a shallow crushed coral base and have a good cleanup crew. Many people make the mistake of treating crushed coral like sand and the two are not the same. If you have a deep sand bed you will have oxygen poor zones which grow anaerobic (nitrobacter) bacteria. This bacteria is great at reducing nitrate to free nitrogen gas. If you have a deep crushed coral bed however, you will collect detrius throughout the substrate and due to the nature of the large sized particles of crushed coral, you will have fewer oxygen poor zones to house anaerobic bacteria. Instead of reducing nitrates, this setup will create hydrogen sulfide which is extrmely poisonous to the tank.
So stop treating cc like sand and your problems will be solved. Only keep your CC about an inch deep max. Invest in a good cleanup crew and any detrius that collects on the surface will be removed. Cleanup crews are non burrowing. So if you have a deep CC base, they will not remove the detrius that collects just below the surface. If your CC is shallow, most of the ditrius that is in the substrate will be avaliable for consumption by your cleanup crew. Your subtrate will remain clean and you will not have high nitrate readings. If done properly, CC can be virtually maintenance free and your nitrates can remain at 0ppm.
Another argument is that CC increases your nitrates. False: I have had a CC bottom for 4 years now and have never on any test found nitrates since I started keeping the depth shallow. I too had nitrates around 80 when I had about 3 inches of CC on the tank bottom. But since then I have removed the CC down to just enough to cover the bottom and I have added more LR and some macro algae (mangroves) to my refugium. My nitrates are ALWAYS 0ppm. Anaerobic nitrobacter bacteria will live anywhere there are oxygen poor zones. This includes living rock. Invest in some good living rock and get a few powerheads to keep the water moving around them. The nitrobacter in the pores of the living rock will consume the nitrates just like it would in a traditional deep sand bed. The thing about bacteria is that it wants to live where it is easiest to live. If you have a deep sand bed then it is easier for the bacteria to colonize there. But if you don't have a deep sand bed (or crushed coral) then this bacteria will colonize your living rock instead. Which brings me to my next point.
A crushed coral bed done properly will not crash while a deep sand bed will. The thing that causes a tank to crash is when people change something that disturbs the nitrobacter in the tank. They inadvertantly expose it to oxygen either through heavy vacuuming or moving rocks around or simply pouring in their water change water too fast and stiring up their sand bed. Since a proper CC base is too shallow to house anaerobic zones, it will not crash if disturbed since the nitrobacer is not growing there in the first place. Instead the nitrobacter will be living in the pores of your living rock and therefore can not die no matter how much you move things around. The bacteria is protected by the rigid structure of the rock which protects it from over exposure to oxygen.
Crushed coral is heavier than sand so therefore you can use more powerheads to stir the water in the tank. Sand is light and if the water flow is too high, it will float around clouding your tank. With CC you can aim your powerheads directly on your LR and there is less of a chance of your CC becoming waterborne. Therefore you can maintain a higher rate of water transfer on your LR which is the area which benefits most from high water circulation.
CC can be less to maintain than a deep sand bed if done properly. You don't have to walk around on egg shells with CC like you do with a DSB. It is a system whereby polutants in the tank are removed through more stable means like living rock and macros and IMO looks better than plain sand.
In the ocean where you have miles and miles of surface area, sand works well and so does for many people here. But our tanks are not the ocean and are more succeptable to changes that can cause problems. IMO, it is not good to rely on your substrate to remove nitrates in such a small closed system. There are better, more stable means of reducing nitrates that are still natural, ie. living rock and macros. If you don't give your substrate the opportunity to colonize nitrobacter bacteria and instead let it grow in your LR, you will achieve the same nitrate reduction as you would with a deep sand bed but not have to deal with the consequences if you mess it up (or a deep burrowing fish). I would never switch back to sand from CC.
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bwonder
Guest
Thanks for the insight Sly! I lined my tank about an inch deep last night, so according to your info I should be ok (well, I don't have to start over).
I've got a ProClear Aquatics Pro 300 Series Wet/Dry Filter with Pre Filter running now, but was told by the LFS that I didn't need a skimmer right away. I guess I should go ahead an invest in one before adding anything else to my tank. Any suggestions?
BTW, What size tank do you have and what does your clean-up crew consist of?
I've got a ProClear Aquatics Pro 300 Series Wet/Dry Filter with Pre Filter running now, but was told by the LFS that I didn't need a skimmer right away. I guess I should go ahead an invest in one before adding anything else to my tank. Any suggestions?
BTW, What size tank do you have and what does your clean-up crew consist of?
coachklm
Active Member
ahhhhh I knew sly would be around some time..... the choice is eventually yours to make...look at the photography sections and look for crushed coral and sand bottoms compare them ... have fun with whatever you decide i think 90% of people enjoy the sand bottoms....but its your choice....and probably 30% of those people swiched from CC bottoms....for a reason.
sly
Active Member
I edited my post above to add some more stuff... I'll post some pics of my CC bottom and show you how clean it is. It is nothing like what other people with CC problems have posted. I agree, most people who have switched from CC to sand have done so for a reason and I believe that reason is that they did not know what they were doing with CC because most people on this forum are too quick to tell them to ditch the CC without actually giving it some thought. It is your decision to make but if you do it correctly, you should not have any problems.
The only thing that I can agree with on the negatives toward crushed coral is that it has sharp edges which might be rough for borrowing creatures. This is true but I have not actually seen a problem with this in application. I have a lunar wrass which burrows all the time and I have never seen any scratches or injury on him ever. So IMO the rough edges are not more than a fish can handle. Plus this shallow depth is actually an advantage. Any burrowing creatures can inadvertantly expose nitrobacter in a deep sand bed to oxygen by sifting through the sand. If this happens, the nictrobacter will die therefore temporarily reducing the nitrate removing capacity of the system until the nitrobacter recovers. In most cases this too is not that big of a problem but theoretically if something stirs the sand too much, it can crash the tank.
The only thing that I can agree with on the negatives toward crushed coral is that it has sharp edges which might be rough for borrowing creatures. This is true but I have not actually seen a problem with this in application. I have a lunar wrass which burrows all the time and I have never seen any scratches or injury on him ever. So IMO the rough edges are not more than a fish can handle. Plus this shallow depth is actually an advantage. Any burrowing creatures can inadvertantly expose nitrobacter in a deep sand bed to oxygen by sifting through the sand. If this happens, the nictrobacter will die therefore temporarily reducing the nitrate removing capacity of the system until the nitrobacter recovers. In most cases this too is not that big of a problem but theoretically if something stirs the sand too much, it can crash the tank.
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bwonder
Guest
Well, since I've started with CC I'm going to give it a try. I've only lined my tank about an inch deep so according to SLY, I should be ok (well, I don't have to start over). :joy:
So, once my tank clears what should I do next? :notsure:
I was going to invest in a protein skimmer, but was told in another post that I don't need that right away. I'll need it once my tank cycles so I have about a month to pick one out. Actually, the guy at my LFS said the same thing.
I'm still a bit leary about my LFS, I'm sure they'll have me buying just about everything they sell if I let them.
So, once my tank clears what should I do next? :notsure:
I was going to invest in a protein skimmer, but was told in another post that I don't need that right away. I'll need it once my tank cycles so I have about a month to pick one out. Actually, the guy at my LFS said the same thing.
I'm still a bit leary about my LFS, I'm sure they'll have me buying just about everything they sell if I let them.
sly
Active Member
Originally Posted by BWonder
I guess I should go ahead an invest in one before adding anything else to my tank. Any suggestions?
BTW, What size tank do you have and what does your clean-up crew consist of?
I would recommend a good down draft skimmer like an ETSS skimmer. I have a Kent TE skimmer on my 72 gallon bowfront tank and it works very well also. The kent is a venturi skimmer and is completely maintaince free for me (except for emptying the cup). With it I get a consistant dark green sludge in the overflow cup (a good thing). I bought the Kent at the time because it was cheaper but I also love the reviews that the ETSS skimmers are getting.
I would get the skimmer as soon as you can. It will remove the cloudiness of your water and will greatly increase your dissolved oxygen levels. You can also add an ozone unit to your skimmer and it will make your water so clear that it virtually disappears. I have a Sander 25mg/hr ozone unit on my tank and I love it. If you do go with ozone, get an ORP meter so that you don't accidentally overdose your tank with ozone. If done properly, ozone will destroy any waterborne pathogens and will break down into pure oxygen gas so you really will not have any actual ozone in the tank that way.
My cleanup crew consists of about 30-40 turbo snails, 30 blue leg hermits, 30 scarlet hermets, a peppermint shrimp and a coral banded shrimp, 2 queen conches, and 2 emerald crabs (I think that's all...)
edit- Oh and I have about 20 narissius snails (spelling?)
I guess I should go ahead an invest in one before adding anything else to my tank. Any suggestions?
BTW, What size tank do you have and what does your clean-up crew consist of?
I would recommend a good down draft skimmer like an ETSS skimmer. I have a Kent TE skimmer on my 72 gallon bowfront tank and it works very well also. The kent is a venturi skimmer and is completely maintaince free for me (except for emptying the cup). With it I get a consistant dark green sludge in the overflow cup (a good thing). I bought the Kent at the time because it was cheaper but I also love the reviews that the ETSS skimmers are getting.
I would get the skimmer as soon as you can. It will remove the cloudiness of your water and will greatly increase your dissolved oxygen levels. You can also add an ozone unit to your skimmer and it will make your water so clear that it virtually disappears. I have a Sander 25mg/hr ozone unit on my tank and I love it. If you do go with ozone, get an ORP meter so that you don't accidentally overdose your tank with ozone. If done properly, ozone will destroy any waterborne pathogens and will break down into pure oxygen gas so you really will not have any actual ozone in the tank that way.
My cleanup crew consists of about 30-40 turbo snails, 30 blue leg hermits, 30 scarlet hermets, a peppermint shrimp and a coral banded shrimp, 2 queen conches, and 2 emerald crabs (I think that's all...)
edit- Oh and I have about 20 narissius snails (spelling?)
jeepman3sk
Member
Can your switch from CC to sand after your tank has already been set up and you have enough money for it? its a 10g tank. Also are there anythings that you would have to worry about when doing the change. not trying to steal your thread but im just interested.
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bwonder
Guest
Wow, Sly, please post pics! I can't wait to see it. ***)
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bwonder
Guest
Originally Posted by Jeepman3sk
Can your switch from CC to sand after your tank has already been set up and you have enough money for it? its a 10g tank. Also are there anythings that you would have to worry about when doing the change. not trying to steal your thread but im just interested.
No problem - ask away! We're both learning... :joy:
Can your switch from CC to sand after your tank has already been set up and you have enough money for it? its a 10g tank. Also are there anythings that you would have to worry about when doing the change. not trying to steal your thread but im just interested.
No problem - ask away! We're both learning... :joy:
sly
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jeepman3sk
Can your switch from CC to sand after your tank has already been set up and you have enough money for it? its a 10g tank. Also are there anythings that you would have to worry about when doing the change. not trying to steal your thread but im just interested.
Yes you can switch at any time. You would need to remove any rocks you have and put them in a bucket of saltwater. You can either use siphoned water from the tank or mix up some new water. I would recommend taking the water out of your tank and then refilling it with new water. Anyway, remove your fish and put them in a bucket. Put a rock or two in the bucket with the fish and cover it up so that it is dark. This will give the fish a place to hide and will reduce their stress. You may need to put in an air stone if the fish end up in the bucket for any extended period of time.
Now remove all of your substrate and put in your sand. Put in at least one bag of living sand and then the rest can be regular aquarium sand or southdown sand (from lowes,etc.)
The bag of living sand will help reduce your cycle time (your tank will cycle if you do this) by seeding the non living sand with organisms. If you start with just regular dead sand, then your cycle time could be longer because the bacteria would have to form a colony from scratch. Eventually it will all become living sand anyway.
Put your rocks back in and let your system run for a few hours before you put your fish back in. You need to give the sand time to settle. Your water will be extremely cloudy for awhile until the sand particles settle. It will take longer for the sand to settle than it would for crushed coral. Also you may have to rearrange your powerheads if they keep stirring up the sand too much. After it settles you can put your fish back in and your done. If you have a sand bed that is deeper than 2 inches, you need to be careful vaccuming it. You will have anaerobic bacteria at the bottom which will reduce your nitrates. Stirring it will cause your tank to crash and it will have to cycle all over again. So lightly vaccum the top and that's it.
Can your switch from CC to sand after your tank has already been set up and you have enough money for it? its a 10g tank. Also are there anythings that you would have to worry about when doing the change. not trying to steal your thread but im just interested.
Yes you can switch at any time. You would need to remove any rocks you have and put them in a bucket of saltwater. You can either use siphoned water from the tank or mix up some new water. I would recommend taking the water out of your tank and then refilling it with new water. Anyway, remove your fish and put them in a bucket. Put a rock or two in the bucket with the fish and cover it up so that it is dark. This will give the fish a place to hide and will reduce their stress. You may need to put in an air stone if the fish end up in the bucket for any extended period of time.
Now remove all of your substrate and put in your sand. Put in at least one bag of living sand and then the rest can be regular aquarium sand or southdown sand (from lowes,etc.)
The bag of living sand will help reduce your cycle time (your tank will cycle if you do this) by seeding the non living sand with organisms. If you start with just regular dead sand, then your cycle time could be longer because the bacteria would have to form a colony from scratch. Eventually it will all become living sand anyway.
Put your rocks back in and let your system run for a few hours before you put your fish back in. You need to give the sand time to settle. Your water will be extremely cloudy for awhile until the sand particles settle. It will take longer for the sand to settle than it would for crushed coral. Also you may have to rearrange your powerheads if they keep stirring up the sand too much. After it settles you can put your fish back in and your done. If you have a sand bed that is deeper than 2 inches, you need to be careful vaccuming it. You will have anaerobic bacteria at the bottom which will reduce your nitrates. Stirring it will cause your tank to crash and it will have to cycle all over again. So lightly vaccum the top and that's it.
sly
Active Member
Originally Posted by Sly
Im looking through some posts on properly cycling a tank and when to use a skimmer...
be right back with the link...
I haven't found that thread yet. I posted it just a few days ago but I have to go to work now... (have to earn some food for the little swimmies... :happyfish)
BBL
Im looking through some posts on properly cycling a tank and when to use a skimmer...
be right back with the link...
I haven't found that thread yet. I posted it just a few days ago but I have to go to work now... (have to earn some food for the little swimmies... :happyfish)
BBL
vanquish
Member
Haha yea as soon as I saw this post I knew Sly would have something to say advocating CC since he swears by it, which is fine. I just think it's funny how its like his mission to get people to use CC. Any ways, the big controversy really shouldn’t be so big. Sand beds are excellent for fostering bacteria as well as macro organism growth, and CC is easy to clean and provides good circulation throughout the bed. But the bottom line is ultimately this: If you take good care of your tank, monitor your chemical levels and nurture good bacteria growth as well as provide adequate water flow throughout the tank then it doesn't matter at all what kind of substrate you use. Many people use sand or cc simply because they feel one or the other looks better. You haven’t made a mistake at all by buying CC, and everything Sly said regarding the substrate is completely true. If you had have gotten sand, you'd be just as well off. Really, its preference.
So no disrespect to Sly—because if you follow his directions you will succeed. If you follow the directions of the threads above him you'll do equally fine. Any one who drastically alters their system may experience a crash, doing so with or without sand wont increase this likelihood.
Any ways. Again, no disrespect meant to you Sly. That’s just my $.02
So no disrespect to Sly—because if you follow his directions you will succeed. If you follow the directions of the threads above him you'll do equally fine. Any one who drastically alters their system may experience a crash, doing so with or without sand wont increase this likelihood.
Any ways. Again, no disrespect meant to you Sly. That’s just my $.02