Lost two more fish - about to give up.

[roninjai]

Well, our baby puffer died this morning. Last night he was looking okay, and eating and swimming around...this morning dead. He had been suffering from what looked like a mild case of ich that he got immediately upon entering our tank, but my wife was treating him with medicine (the stuff that turns the tank blue), and he looked to be ok.
We've had our tank for probably two years now. We initially got a clown that lived about a year. We tried adding an angel, but the clown kept attacking it, it got ich and died in the quarantine tank. Later we tried a lionfish. I left town overnight, came back, it was dead. A day later, the clown got sick, and he died a day later. That was a year ago. All this time, the tank has been running and cycling and what not. So we got some new fish about two weeks ago, the puffer, and a bi color angel. Both immediately got sick, the bi-color died within two days of going into the tank. Now the puffer is gone.
At this point I don't know what to do. We test the water, it reads fine. The tank is clean. We just added an new skimmer. We feed the fish, do research, acclimate them accordingly. But nothing we do seems to matter. At this point, should I just pack it in and sell the tank? I like it, and I'd like to keep fish, but we just can't seem to get anything to live, and on top of it not being fair to fish we buy...I'm getting a little tired of throwing money away on things with no guarantee, and that includes both fish and equipment.

 

[rainfishy]

Can you tell us more about your system? and include exact water parameters. Everone here could help you more with that info.

 

[joker_ca]

we need to know your water parameters, also how do you acclimate your fish, how big is your tank, are u using Live Rock live sand or crushed coral, what kind of filter system are u using, how often do u change your water, and what test are u using and what do u test for
also what medication did u use, does it contain copper?

 

[danedodger]

Yep, more information would help out a lot.
Trying some general troubleshooting in the meantime just off what you've said so far, it sounds like you need to go back to basics and treat this tank like it's brand new.
That was a year ago. All this time, the tank has been running and cycling and what not.
So for a year the tank has been running with absolutely no livestock in it at all? If so the tank has had nothing to cycle with all that year and will need to cycle. That may be what happened to your new puffer, the tank kicked into a cycle when you added him and he wasn't able to cope with that.
We initially got a clown that lived about a year. We tried adding an angel, but the clown kept attacking it, it got ich and died in the quarantine tank.
Then that's the answer to why you lost the angel. He got stressed from the clown harassing him which lowered his immune system so that he caught ich. You can avoid that in the future by choosing compatible tankmates, carefully deciding what order to add them into the tank, and other little "safety measures" like rearranging the tank before adding a new fish, making sure there's enough hidey spots to go around, feeding them well just before adding a new fish, etc. If you hadn't added the angel I'm betting that clown would still be going strong so it's not like this is hopeless and you're starting out with absolutely no knowledge. You've obviously got some good basic knowledge to go on if you kept the clown healthy and happy for a year. Just add to that knowledge and perfect it and you'll be just fine!!
So we got some new fish about two weeks ago, the puffer, and a bi color angel. Both immediately got sick, the bi-color died within two days of going into the tank. Now the puffer is gone.
This could also be a result of your levels going haywire as the tank began to cycle with the addition of the new fish. Neither fish is a good choice at all for cycling a tank much less both of them together at once. Depending on what the "illness" was you might also consider where you bought the fish from. Are their fish generally healthy and eating well? Do they maintain their tanks properly? Were these fish wild caught or captive bred? Did the store even question you to see if your tank was ready for these fish? If not you may want to consider buying from someplace different next time.

 

[roninjai]

I'll admit, I'm not an expert, my wife does most of it, but she's on the board almost daily trying to glean knowledge. Tank is 65 gallons. Yes to live rock. Bottom I think is a crushed coral base w/ live sand on top.
During the year the tank had the remnants of a cleaning crew...I think two hermits and two snails...plus a chocolate chip starfish. The starfish "disappeared" about a month ago.
I guess my next question is, how do you know the tank is cycled enough? We obviously thought it was, or we wouldn't have added fish to it. I don't want to keep killing them.
Yes, I know thats why the angel before died w/ the clown. Thats why we chose a puffer first for this time...more easy going, not so territorial I still don't know what happened to the lion. Or to our starfish that just disappeared.
As for the fish, the puffer and the bi-color came from two different stores. Both "looked" healthy. The puffer was very young, the bca was mature...didn't seem to matter though. The bca got sick immediately...it seems like it was because the tank was not cycled properly...but like i say before...how you do know? We tested the water before hand and all looked fine.
And at this point, what do I do? There were fish in it for about two weeks. As of now, the only thing left alive is one hermit crab. (Medicine for the fish killed the snails.) Is it cycled now?

 

[danedodger]

Of course you don't want them to die, we understand that!
Just my own personal opinion but I'd go forward with the assumption that the tank is NOT fully cycled right now. That's the better safe than sorry route. Then figure out where you want to go with this tank (if the med you used had copper in it you'll have to go with a fish only tank).
Your safest bet (although the following is certainly debatable this is what I'd do anyway) is probably going to be putting all the liverock and cleanup crew into a big rubbermaid tub (if you don't have another tank or other place to keep them temporarily) with a powerhead for circulation, heater, and thermometer. Then add a raw, peeled shrimp to the main tank and test the water often. You should see the ammonia go up then down as nitrites go up then down as nitrates go up, do a partial water change to bring the nitrates down to at least 20 or less and you can add the liverock and cleanup gang back into the tank. Only after that, IMO, should you look into adding a fish and still choose very carefully. The more peaceful or shy fish should go in first so that they can establish themselves.
At worst with this if the tank actually HAS stayed cycled it may just kick it into another cycle or you may not see the levels fluctuate if you already have a sufficient bio-crew going but I think it'd be better to be sure that it really has cycled fully once and for all. Either way you should have enough bacteria to handle adding a fish after this.
Anyone disagree completely or have a different opinion?

 

[hagfish]

If you had something alive in there all this time, and you had live things in there like 2 years ago it is probably cycled. But with almost no life in it for so long, the introduction of 2 fish might have caused a mini-cycle. Try to find a good hardy fish to start with like a clownfish. Damsels of course are about as hardy as can be, but many don't like them for their aggressiveness. There are some gobies that might be a good choice too. My engineer goby has made it through some total disasters.
What kind of test kits are you using? Have you had the levels checked by your LFS or someone else's kits?
You need to be careful with what kind of medicine you use in the main tank if you have invertebrates. Did the medicine contain copper? If so, you'll have a hard time keeping inverts since copper kills them and it's almost impossible to get all copper out of the tank.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by DaneDodger
Of course you don't want them to die, we understand that!
Just my own personal opinion but I'd go forward with the assumption that the tank is NOT fully cycled right now. That's the better safe than sorry route. Then figure out where you want to go with this tank (if the med you used had copper in it you'll have to go with a fish only tank).
Your safest bet (although the following is certainly debatable this is what I'd do anyway) is probably going to be putting all the liverock and cleanup crew into a big rubbermaid tub (if you don't have another tank or other place to keep them temporarily) with a powerhead for circulation, heater, and thermometer. Then add a raw, peeled shrimp to the main tank and test the water often. You should see the ammonia go up then down as nitrites go up then down as nitrates go up, do a partial water change to bring the nitrates down to at least 20 or less and you can add the liverock and cleanup gang back into the tank. Only after that, IMO, should you look into adding a fish and still choose very carefully. The more peaceful or shy fish should go in first so that they can establish themselves.
At worst with this if the tank actually HAS stayed cycled it may just kick it into another cycle or you may not see the levels fluctuate if you already have a sufficient bio-crew going but I think it'd be better to be sure that it really has cycled fully once and for all. Either way you should have enough bacteria to handle adding a fish after this.
Anyone disagree completely or have a different opinion?
I wouldn't remove the LR and substrate before beginning the cycle. What's the point in that? I suppose you are worried about a little extra die off on the LR, but the LR and substrate should help the cycle to go quicker due to the bacteria on them. It sounds like there's just a couple inverts left so I wouldn't even worry about them. Or just give them to a local reefer or donate to LFS. I had a hermit crab that was a hitchhiker live through the entire cycle before.
Might as well try to restart a cycle though using dead shrimp. The levels should go up at least a little. Just act like it's a new tank from there. In the mean time you can research some hardy fish to buy and plan it out such that you get the meanest fish last so that there is less likelyhood of fighting.

 

[danedodger]

I wouldn't remove the LR and substrate before beginning the cycle. What's the point in that? I suppose you are worried about a little extra die off on the LR, but the LR and substrate should help the cycle to go quicker due to the bacteria on them. It sounds like there's just a couple inverts left so I wouldn't even worry about them. Or just give them to a local reefer or donate to LFS. I had a hermit crab that was a hitchhiker live through the entire cycle before.
No, I wouldn't remove the substrate either. And yes, the possibility of die-off on the liverock was my concern. It's true that any bacteria left on the liverock will help the cycle but if the tank cycles hard it's possible that it will kill off live stuff including that bacteria that's already there. Hmmm on that one I have no idea how to judge your chances so all I can say is do what you think is best

Same with the clean-up crew really. If the tank does cycle hard there's always a chance that your hermie won't live through it but then again he might! And another possibility is that the tank will only mini-cycle and not go through a bad one in which case the risk of loss is less, of course.
Hmm maybe just cut the risk of it by putting that raw shrimp in there without taking anything out, test it often, and if the levels DO start to rise too high have that rubbermaid standing by to rescue your live stuff? Seems like a good compromise to me, whattaya think?

 

[roninjai]

I don't know exactly what kind of medicine it was. I know it turned our tank blue and stained the silicone holding the corners together. It didn't hurt the live rock, and one of the hermits survived. It did kill a snail though.
I would put a clown in, but thats sort of what started this whole mess...the clown getting territorial. Is the puffer a bad fish to start with?

 

[danedodger]

It'd be best to make really sure what it was but it sounds to me like a common medication using methylene blue and maybe some form of formaldihyde (what is it they use, formalin?) Not the best ich killer out there but some people have had some success with it and to my knowledge it's not known to harm inverts, at least not like copper would.

 

[wax32]

Is the puffer a bad fish to start with?
Yes
And that medicine probably wiped out everything in your rock, like pods, worms etc, so yes, it harmed your rock.
Find out what that medicine was, that is a priority...
If it did contain copper you may never be able to put coral or another snail or shrimp or crab into your tank again. It is just luck that the hermit survived, it might still die soon.

 

[coachklm]

you "missing" starfish could have died causing an ammonia spike therefore toxicating the water for the fish. my.02

 

[roninjai]

Anybody have clues to what may have happened to it? I am unfamiliar w/ the decompsition rate of something like that. Could it be under the sand?

 

[hagfish]

My one attempt at a starfish resulted in disentegration at about 6 months. I took out what I could, but about half of it had just disappeared in about a day. So if it's been a while, you probably can't find your starfish anymore.
The point mentioned above about meds killing things off is significant. If the med was harmful to inverts that may have killed just about everything other than the fish, maybe even the bacteria depending on what you used. You really have to be very careful what kind of medicine you use in a display tank (I wouldn't use any unless in QT tank in most cases).
What kind of clownfish did you have before? Some are meaner than others. But in general they aren't going to kill too many new intros usually. But as someone else mentioned above there are acclimation procedures that can help such as turning out the lights and rearranging the live rock so that the clown doesn't have a "territory" anymore. Feeding might keep the aggressor occupied while the new fish gets accustomed to things as well.
I certainly wouldn't count out a clown because your old one bullied ONE fish too much. Take the steps mentioned and you will be better off next time.

 

[roninjai]

The medicine didn't kill the starfish. The starfish disappeared before we got the new fish, sorry if I wasn't clear about that. My fear was that there was a rotting starfish under my sand that was somehow poisioning the tank.
We were careful about the medicine. My wife got a very specific kind BECAUSE it was a display tank.
The clown was a percula. I think the main problem is he had the tank to himself for so long. And we did rearrange the rock and turn the lights off...it made no difference at all. That was "his" tank and that was all there was to it.

Both fish wanted the same spot, and the clown nipped at the angel's fins and stressed it out.

 

[hagfish]

Just mark the fish aggressiveness up to bad luck. It doesn't sound like the clown actually killed the angel anyway. We are only speculating that he harrassed the angel enough that the angel's immune system could no longer fight off ich. It could be that the angel already had ich though and you just couldn't see it when you bought it. Clowns aren't really that aggressive that you should count them out of a peaceful setup. After all, about 90% of the peaceful tanks you see have clowns in them.
Just let the tank recycle and start over again with the fish. There are plenty of hardy and peacefull fish out there. Use your time waiting to find them. I started my 72 bow with a yellow watchman goby. He's easy and has great color. I've never seen him harm a fish, he just opens his mouth wide to intimidate (it doesn't really work though usually).

 

[roninjai]

We were planning on getting another clown and adding him last.

 

[wax32]

You still haven't answered the question about the medicine. Did your wife use it all up, throw away the bottle and then go out of town without her cellphone? What was the medicine?
I didn't talk about the fish thing before, but clownfish are a kind of damsel. Every one of them that I have had was at least a little mean. I had a 1" tomato that beat up an adult blue devil. And don't get me started on my two little ocellaris that terrorised the entire 29 gallon tank.

 

[debbie]

I can totally understand where you are coming from. This hobby is not cheap by any means. I just lost my CC star and will never have one again. I think there are just some things in this hobby that are better left to the "experts" and folks with huge aquariums or leave these critters in the ocean, we cannot immitate the natural food sources for these animals like in the wild in our tanks.
Don't give up, do what I am doing and keep it simple. I changed 1 1/2 years ago to live sand, threw all the crushed coral into the garbage. I wish I would have only listened the first time. I love the sand and my bed is not deep at all 1/2" that is it. I have some live rock and a few mushrooms. I have 4 fish and one large hermit crab. You can have a very nice tank if you keep the simple fish.
We all like the big bold beautiful fish, but there are many others out there that are just as nice and alot simpler to keep. Give it a try with a few hardy fish that are inexpensive and see what happens. I am glad I did this and will to look back.
Deb