LS vs CC (again)

[sly]

I posted this in another thread but felt that this needed to be talked about seperately.
I actually prefer CC, but you have to keep it shallow. To me a DSB works well for awhile at removing nitrates until something happens. Either someone will stir the DSB and break the cycle, causing nitrates to go through the roof, or stuff will build up within the sand over time and eventually lead to a tank crash from the decomposing detrius under the bed.
A DSB has to be the correct depth to work properly. If it's too shallow, you will get highly oxygenated sand and therefore not grow the bacteria that are necessary to remove nitrate. If the DSB is too deep then you will have areas that are totally oxygen starved and then you will have a different type of bacteria form that release toxic hydrogen sulfide in the tank. The trick is to have LOW oxygen areas within the bed so that you grow the correct type of bacteria.
While 4inches depth is a good rule, it really depends on how much water flow and dissolved oxygen are in your tank. If you don't have a skimmer you may need a shallower bed to be effective (less dissolved oxygen in the water means shallower bed in order to avoid oxygen starved zones). Also if you don't have power heads blowing water across the bed you will have less oxygen transfering into the bed as well since blowing water across exposes the bed to dissolved oxygen more than stagnant, still water.
I like the CC better because for one, I think it looks better. But instead of using the substrate to remove nitrates, etc. from the water, I like to rely more on LR and macro algae in the tank. These are less likely to crash than a DSB and are very efficient at removing nitrate from the water, while a DSB will actually displace much of the tank's water with sand, effectively giving you a smaller tank with less filtering capacity.
Your CC should only be for decoration...about 1 inch deep. Stir it about once a week or so to break up ditrius so that it can be removed by your filter system. Your LR will remove the other junk from the water. Since CC is denser than sand, your water will clear up faster after you stir it than sand will. Also you SHOULD stir CC while you CAN'T stir a DSB. Stirring breaks up the junk that collects in the tank that normal bacteria don't remove; stuff that will eventually create poison in the tank. It's also good to clean your filter floss and foam AFTER stirring your CC (or LS). The junk that gets stirred up into the water winds up in the filter and will cause problems if not removed. Clean out the floss after stirring and you will effectively remove the junk that causes problems in the tank, rather than just let it sit there as with a DSB.
When you clean a DSB, LIGHTLY vacuum the surface to remove any collected debris. Some people have had a DSB successfully for a few years but in the long run, they will eventually have to remove it and start over because of the junk that collects in the bottom. One other thing that helps is to get a "burrowing" clean up crew. This includes wrasses that sift through the sand. Although some wrasses can sift too much and also crash a DSB.

 

[bang guy]

The critical defining factor is an abundance of a diverse critter population in the DSB. They will also help keep CC clean but for a DSB it will not work without this population. I'm not talking about large animals. I'm referring to tiny almost microscopic worms & crustaceans.
The animals do not stir the sand. Stirring the sand actually impedes the nitrate removing ability of the DSB. These small animals are what cause the Nitrate rich water to flow to the lower depths of the sand. Without them the bacteria will die and it will become an anaerobic detritus collection zone.

 

[sly]

Where do you get these criters? I used to have some bug looking things in the tank but my manderine ate them before it died (at the hands of my dadburn blue damsel).

 

[bang guy]

These critters come from high quality live sand like the Premium Florida sand sold on this site. I also recommend sand swapping with other hobbiests on a regular basis to maintain diversity. The smaller the DSB, the more often it will need to be recharged to maintain diversity. Sandbeds smaller than 2 square feet need to recharged so often that they cannot be effectively maintained IMO.
I swap sand with fellow hobbiests every chance I get. Every year or so I'll buy some "wild caught" live sand as well.

 

[jimmy g]

In what way(s) does trading some sand with other hobbiests benefit you tank?

 

[bang guy]

Animal diversity. In my opinion this is the key to a healthy sandbed that it too often overlooked.

 

[jimmy g]

K thanks Bang

 

[sly]

bump

 

[wayne_etc]

I was planning on having alot of LR, either CC or LS, and a skimmer as my filtration. Which would be best in this case - CC or LS?
Oh yeah, 45 gal FOWLR.
thanks
w

 

[belothsurf]

You can't go wrong with enough LR...... (within reason) You also can't go wrong with the best protein skimmer. This is one area you don't want to skimp on. The best protein skimmers are going to cost you, don't waste your money and buy a cheap one, and 2 months later decide you want a better one. The better ones are going to cost you in the 200-400$ range, for a 45g. Someone tried to tell me on this board once that a 'skilter" was a good choice. Proof again that you need to take every piece of advice with a grain of salt........
Roll Tide............

 

[sly]

I agree. Plenty of LR and a good skimmer will be your best bet whether you go with CC or LS. As for your choice in LR or CC, it's entirely up to you.
I just wanted to point out some of the differences between LS and CC. It seems like for awhile, a bunch of people were taking their tanks down to "upgrade" their tanks from CC to LS. It seemed like the CC agrument needed to be said since there's benefits to both.
That's the case with most things in this hobby. There are always benefits and consequences to everything. A good skimmer can clean your tank, but it can also kill plankton. Macro algae will remove nitrates but they will also absorb minerals from the water and make it harder to keep your alk up. The list goes on... There's no perfect system and I don't want people to think that now that they have LS in their tank, everything will be perfect.

 

[liquidskys]

thanks for this post..
i was starting to wonder about LS myself..
but i think Im going to stick with my CC
i have the Very fine CC so it loooks somewhat like sand anyways and i just added 10 lbs of the living CC to it
wworks and looks great i think

 

[sly]

Yea, I like the look of CC better myself. Sand looks great when it's pure white, imo. But I could never get it to stay that way. It seems to always get some brown in it no matter what you do.

 

[sly]

bump

 

[doodle1800]

thanks for bumping this thread... I've been debating whether to go cc or ls for over a year now. I'm sure I'll now convert. I didn't realize LS needed care so much. You can't just let it sit there. I'll give cc a shot.

 

[sly]

*bump*

 

[sly]

I need to add one more bit of info.
I will be moving in about a month and a half. Because I am using a shallow CC setup, I don't plan on running into any problems due to moving the tank. With a DSB you disturb the tank when you move it and that will most likely cause a cycle. CC does not have that problem when you keep it shallow.

 

[snipe]

This post is so wrong and goes against itself in many ways. To keep the great bacteria that is in a deep sand bed you cant stir it and if you have this bacteria in Crushed Coral and you stir it then the same thing will result in the end. Also you mentioned about sand trapping debri that is wrong CC is the one that dose that to. And if you stir it once a week then your releasing all this trapped left over waste and will cause a spike in your params. And lets face it having to move crushed coral around once a week isnt worth it when you can have live sand and never mess with it.

 

[sly]

You have no idea what you are talking about. I have had a cc setup for almost 4 years and it has never crashed except for the time I used bad silicon on a leaky refugium. Perhaps if you would take the time to read the post instead of flaming you would understand.
The CC base does not trap the detrius like the DSB does for one simple reason. It is courser, heavier and shallow so that the debris that does fall onto the CC base is kicked back up again with the use of powerheads. The high oxygen zones also do not allow anaerobic bacteria to grow which is what leads to hydrogen sulfide production. Simply put you don't use a DSB in a small aquarium. I don't know how many times I have to say this and people still don't see it...
Using the substrate as a form of filtration in an aquarium is a bad idea. Most people end up having to swap sand from other aquariousts because of the inherent drop in biodiversity that happens because a DSB loses it's effectiveness over time. In the ocean you don't have this problem and a DSB works fine because of the unlimited resources and biodiversity that keep the DSB maintained. But in an aquarium that is not the case.
All DSB's eventually crash for one reason or another. They are effective at removing waste until they become saturated. At that point, anarobic bacterial breakdown of detrius ends and hydrogen sulfide begins to collect on the bottom of the bed. Because the DSB can't be stirred to remove this waste, it continuously accumulates. At the point the hydrogen sulfide becomes toxic, enough to kill the beneficial bacteria, the nitrogen cycle stops and anaerobic hydrogen sulfide production is the only thing left that can break down the waste. This process can take years to develop but it eventually happens.
The trick is to not rely on the substrate to carry your nitrogen cycle for you. Instead of having a DSB, use Living Rock and macro-algae to remove nitrates. This is a living process of nitrate removal where the wastes are actually removed from the system through plant growth and micro-organism growth within the Living Rock. Using a Crushed Coral substrate at only a 1 inch depth prevents those anaerobic pockets from forming. The CC is coarser and so it allows oxygen to penetrate through it better than sand can. Higher oxygen levels mean 0 hydrogen sulfide production.
I stirred my CC substrate today. This was the first time since last October. There was not much debris in it because I keep powerheads pointed down to continually kick up any debris so that the tank filter will catch it. You can't do this with sand because the finer sand particles will continuously remain suspended in the water and your tank will be cloudy. CC is heavier and so it does not suspend in water as easily.
You don't have to stir the CC once a week. I stirred my for the first time in almost 5 months. There was no rise in ammonia, nitrate, phosphate, or nitrite. Try that with a DSB. Your levels would go through the roof!. Besides, stiring the substrate took less than 5 minutes and was a lot less of a hassle than vacuuming a sand bed. Now my tank is clean again as the dirt that was kicked up got trapped in the filter. I simply rinsed out the filter and literally REMOVED the polutants from the tank. You can't do that with a DSB without crashing it and causing a cycle.
I never got on this Deep Sand Bed bandwagon, and quite frankly, it is rather disturbing that so many people have just followed the crowd and didn't even realize what they were getting into.

 

[sly]

Originally posted by Snipe
This post is so wrong and goes against itself in many ways. To keep the great bacteria that is in a deep sand bed you cant stir it...
I don't think you even understood the post. That's exactly what I said. You should NEVER stir a DSB or it will crash!
and if you have this bacteria in Crushed Coral and you stir it then the same thing will result in the end.
Again you didn't read the post. You don't have a 4 inch deep CC base. You only have a 1 inch base with CC. That way you have high oxygen zones throughout the substrate and therefore do not have hydrogen sulfide producion that you would have with a DSB.
Also you mentioned about sand trapping debri that is wrong CC is the one that dose that to.
Again, read the post. All substrates trap debris. The problem is that with a DSB, you can not easily remove it without risking a crash. With a shallow CC base, you can keep power heads on it to keep the debris kicked up so that the filter can catch it. Also you can remove it if you want and not crash the system in the process. Thia is because you have your system set up to carry the nitrogen cycle through better means, such as LR and macros.
And if you stir it once a week then your releasing all this trapped left over waste and will cause a spikein your params.
Hear what I am saying... if the substrate is only an inch deep, there will not be that much to be kicked up. Also because it is shallow, there will not be any hydrogen sulfide like there would be in a DSB because there would not have been any oxygen free zones deep within the bed to form these poisons. A shallow CC substrate is dense so that it is not kicked up easily while the debris is easily seperated from it by the powerheads. With sand, the debris and the sand are close in mass and so when you try to clean it, you end up removing almost as much sand as you do debris.
And lets face it having to move crushed coral around once a week isnt worth it when you can have live sand and never mess with it.
I clean mine lightly once in several months... Really, how hard can it be to take your finger and run it through the substrate to stir it up? I guarantee you do not have a 0 maintanance sand bed. You at least have to lightly vaccum it. I don't vaccum the CC at all. The powerheads keep it clean for me.