man this is not good some stupid people in this world
- Thread starter requiem
- Start date
sharkboy97
Member
u should buy it it would look good in ur tank and it would be a good home for it instead of 200 gallons
ophiura
Active Member
Does, er, that auction site care about such things? If you were to say "hey, someone is selling an elephant to the public"...would they care? Seems like they might take some stand against the sale of certain types of animals :thinking: But a girl can dream. Thanks for acting on that requiem :yes:
moraymike
Member
11 ft. lemon in a 250 gallon tank? Yeah, I'd say it might need a "bigger tank" some day. Of course, the sad reality is that so will many of the creatures that we maintain in the home aquarium. Sharks in the home aquarium often times trigger a pretty exterme response (probably warrented in this case). Where's the outrage when someone keeps a yellow tang in a 35 gallon tank (S. Michael suggests a minimum tank size of 75 gallons for that species)? I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't necessarily think that we should play the holier than thou game with our fellow hobbiest. If someone is willing to spend the dollars to maintain a large species, let's support them with our experiences, learnings, etc. I think often times we are too quick to judge our sometimes overly enthusiastic fellow aquarists. If someone wants to buy a lemon, nurse, spotted wobbegong (10 ft. adut size), etc., I think we should help these folks make informed decissions. Is someone that keeps a lemon shark pup a bad person? I don't think so.
ophiura
Active Member
I think that we are here to try and help people make informed decisions...they do that by getting everyone's opinions, even from the "holier than thou" folks. "Holier than thou" can be relative - we can call people that simply for raining on our tank plans and they can be spot on right in their info.
In that particular case we can't reach the buyer, only the seller, and I think people have an equal right if not responsibility to step up in cases of probable cruelty and say "enough." But that is my take on the situation. I have this opinion on many animals in this hobby that just get too large for most people to keep.
Many larger species of sharks are, granted, pulled up by people and bashed over the heads because they are sharks. We can hope that education will change some of these opinions in time. But to me there are still limits. I fully support people like requiem who is sharing his experience, putting money on the line, sharing his knowledge and is fully responsible in the types of sharks he's keeping when many with that sort of tank would not be.
Again, tho, its all JMO
In that particular case we can't reach the buyer, only the seller, and I think people have an equal right if not responsibility to step up in cases of probable cruelty and say "enough." But that is my take on the situation. I have this opinion on many animals in this hobby that just get too large for most people to keep.
Many larger species of sharks are, granted, pulled up by people and bashed over the heads because they are sharks. We can hope that education will change some of these opinions in time. But to me there are still limits. I fully support people like requiem who is sharing his experience, putting money on the line, sharing his knowledge and is fully responsible in the types of sharks he's keeping when many with that sort of tank would not be.
Again, tho, its all JMO
moraymike
Member
Ophiura, I agree with much of what you said. However, I hardly think that a 24 inch shark in a 250 gallon tank would necessarily qualify as an animal cruelty case. I guess what I'm saying is that we, as responsible aquarists, often times (IMO) spend a lot of energy in the wrong places. For example, what is the survival rate for anemones (not the condys) in the home aquarium? Blue spotted rays? Morish Idols? Funny how those subjects aren't really discussed...
I'm a huge marine life fan, and a huge shark fan... and I like to fish for sharks (catch and release only). I guess my point is that not all folks with 250 gallon tanks and sharks are bad folks. I've got a 250 with a couple of coral cat sharks. Now, if someone like requiem tries to keep a blacktip in his (req. I'm assuming you're a he ), are we going to say anything? Well, considering that tank still isn't big enough for an adult size blacktip, is anyone going to say anything? I'm not...
I'm a huge marine life fan, and a huge shark fan... and I like to fish for sharks (catch and release only). I guess my point is that not all folks with 250 gallon tanks and sharks are bad folks. I've got a 250 with a couple of coral cat sharks. Now, if someone like requiem tries to keep a blacktip in his (req. I'm assuming you're a he
), are we going to say anything? Well, considering that tank still isn't big enough for an adult size blacktip, is anyone going to say anything? I'm not...
moraymike
Member
Folks:
I think that everyone's means well, but... Gruber (1980) said that 2.2 lbs of lemon shark per 26 gallons of water in a well kept system is adequate. I just don't think that this qualifies as animal cruelty. With having said that, I don't necessarily agree with what is going on here with this particular shark... I just don't think it is animal cruelty.
Is anyone going to be screaming animal cruelty if Req puts a backtip in 3,000 gallons of water? The minimum recommended tank size is 5,750 gallons (Scott Michael)?
I'm a huge fan of the hobby, but not the double standards.
Just my opinion folks...
I think that everyone's means well, but... Gruber (1980) said that 2.2 lbs of lemon shark per 26 gallons of water in a well kept system is adequate. I just don't think that this qualifies as animal cruelty. With having said that, I don't necessarily agree with what is going on here with this particular shark... I just don't think it is animal cruelty.
Is anyone going to be screaming animal cruelty if Req puts a backtip in 3,000 gallons of water? The minimum recommended tank size is 5,750 gallons (Scott Michael)?
I'm a huge fan of the hobby, but not the double standards.
Just my opinion folks...
J
jcrim
Guest
For those interested in sharks and rays, check out these articles:
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquarium...d=3790&search=
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquarium...d=3790&search=
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquarium...d=3790&search=
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquarium...d=3790&search=
ophiura
Active Member
For example, what is the survival rate for anemones (not the condys) in the home aquarium? Blue spotted rays? Morish Idols? Funny how those subjects aren't really discussed...
LOL, this is an example of a recent discussion on the moorish idol. People (OK, a lot of me again but I know many others discourage keeping them).
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...t=moorish+idol
IMO anemones also get a lot of attention when in young tanks or those with inappropriate lighting. People get heat for it...but the difference is that sea anemones have known needs that can generally be met by responsible hobbyists dedicated to their care. The mortality rate though, is still quite high, which comes back to educating people and not saying "give it a go" but "give it a go when you can provide basic minimum known needs." We are on our way with some species of anemones to being able to provide tank raised anemones. But it is not perfect.
With regard to sharks, certain species have a known need for at a minimum several thousands of gallons. If people can provide at least that, then I'm more open to it with smaller species of sharks. Its not like their diet is a total mystery and difficult to provide But if certain sharks will STILL outgrow the capacity for most hobbyists, then I am against their sale to the general public. IMO, if you have an animal that IF YOU SUCCEED at keeping it and it grows, will outgrow most systems....does border on cruelty. You can only keep them if you fail and they don't thrive. I think we have a responsibility to abandon collection of some of these sharks - keeping in mind also their ecological significance and generally slow reproductive rate - and selling to the general public because they are cool and people think that they can keep them in their 300g tank for a little while and then.....oh yeah then :notsure: Hobbyists (and suppliers) often think in short term goals, and it costs a lot of lives, including of those fish that thrive to the extent they outgrow their tank.
Anyway, I am not going to go demonstrate in front of people's houses, but I will spout my mouth off (or fingers I guess) at times like this. If you can show me your several thousand gallon tank and some experience then go get yourself an active shark. But don't sell it at auction to some Joe schmo for a few bucks. That is part of how the hobby does lose respect in the eyes of scientists.
Requiem, if I am not mistaken, has access to much larger systems - I believe he is a zookeeper/aquarist?
But, as an aside I would personally LOVE to see several species of marine animals banned if the hobby can't regulate itself by preaching, yes preaching if need be, responsible husbandry. Know your limits. That is the scientist side of me at odds with the hobbyist side
Same disclaimer as in the moorish idol thread, its all JMO and discussion
Not going to change any minds, and probably should do some more work here at work instead of getting into these discussions, but anyway, it is how I approach some of these issues.
LOL, this is an example of a recent discussion on the moorish idol. People (OK, a lot of me again but I know many others discourage keeping them).
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...t=moorish+idol
IMO anemones also get a lot of attention when in young tanks or those with inappropriate lighting. People get heat for it...but the difference is that sea anemones have known needs that can generally be met by responsible hobbyists dedicated to their care. The mortality rate though, is still quite high, which comes back to educating people and not saying "give it a go" but "give it a go when you can provide basic minimum known needs." We are on our way with some species of anemones to being able to provide tank raised anemones. But it is not perfect.
With regard to sharks, certain species have a known need for at a minimum several thousands of gallons. If people can provide at least that, then I'm more open to it with smaller species of sharks. Its not like their diet is a total mystery and difficult to provide
But if certain sharks will STILL outgrow the capacity for most hobbyists, then I am against their sale to the general public. IMO, if you have an animal that IF YOU SUCCEED at keeping it and it grows, will outgrow most systems....does border on cruelty. You can only keep them if you fail and they don't thrive. I think we have a responsibility to abandon collection of some of these sharks - keeping in mind also their ecological significance and generally slow reproductive rate - and selling to the general public because they are cool and people think that they can keep them in their 300g tank for a little while and then.....oh yeah then :notsure: Hobbyists (and suppliers) often think in short term goals, and it costs a lot of lives, including of those fish that thrive to the extent they outgrow their tank. Anyway, I am not going to go demonstrate in front of people's houses, but I will spout my mouth off (or fingers I guess) at times like this. If you can show me your several thousand gallon tank and some experience then go get yourself an active shark. But don't sell it at auction to some Joe schmo for a few bucks. That is part of how the hobby does lose respect in the eyes of scientists.
Requiem, if I am not mistaken, has access to much larger systems - I believe he is a zookeeper/aquarist?
But, as an aside I would personally LOVE to see several species of marine animals banned if the hobby can't regulate itself by preaching, yes preaching if need be, responsible husbandry. Know your limits. That is the scientist side of me at odds with the hobbyist side
Same disclaimer as in the moorish idol thread, its all JMO and discussion
Not going to change any minds, and probably should do some more work here at work instead of getting into these discussions, but anyway, it is how I approach some of these issues.
moraymike
Member
Ophiura:
Let me first say that I think this is a great discussion and I appreciate the fact that we can discuss this sensitive issue in a rational manner. Thank you. I think that many hobbyists (and maybe more importantly marine critters) could benefit from this discussion. Also, let me say that I believe that there are no easy answers here. Furthermore, I believe there are no completely right or wrong answers.
Okay, like you, I've been on both the science and hobbyist side (I've got a MS in Aquatic Biology). Like req, I've been in the professional husbandry (zoo keeping/aquarist) business. Now, I do environmental work.
Okay, you say that anemones have known needs that can be met by a majority of hobbyists. I'm not sure that I completely agree with that statement. How much conflicting information is out there regarding symbiotic algae nutrients vs. feeding anemones? In many cases, the husbandry of nurse sharks is better understood. In fact, a nurse shark pup is more likely to survive in less than ideal water quality. So, it's not cruel to try to keep an animal that may have a 50% survival rate (at best) vs. a shark pup in a 300 gallon tank. Does anyone see my point? I just see an unfortunate trend here. We are quick to condemn the actions of others when they involve sharks, but we don't consider what we have in our own tanks might not be that different. Okay, so we get some legislation passed on the ban of nurse shark pup sales. Will that save a lot of nurse shark lives? Sure it will. However, I'm afraid that those kinds of solutions will start us down a road that we don't want to go down. What would be next? Okay, Moorish Idols, groupers, blue spotted rays, anemones? What about tangs? Most of them get pretty large. I'm sure that we could find some science to support the argument that the natural home range of a yellow tang is such that we should ban them from aquarium sales. The entire hobby could be and is considered to be "cruel." Sorry, but a 3,000 gallon tank still isn't sufficient for bonnethead and blacktips (especially the non-reef dwelling species that you can catch around here and Florida).
Now, I agree that we should all know our limits. Furthermore, I think we should help our fellow hobbyist to understand their limits. But all this discussion about cruelty and our double standards is dangerous for all of us. My point, let's encourge responsiblity, but not be so quick to judge.
Let me first say that I think this is a great discussion and I appreciate the fact that we can discuss this sensitive issue in a rational manner. Thank you. I think that many hobbyists (and maybe more importantly marine critters)
could benefit from this discussion. Also, let me say that I believe that there are no easy answers here. Furthermore, I believe there are no completely right or wrong answers. Okay, like you, I've been on both the science and hobbyist side (I've got a MS in Aquatic Biology). Like req, I've been in the professional husbandry (zoo keeping/aquarist) business. Now, I do environmental work.
Okay, you say that anemones have known needs that can be met by a majority of hobbyists. I'm not sure that I completely agree with that statement. How much conflicting information is out there regarding symbiotic algae nutrients vs. feeding anemones? In many cases, the husbandry of nurse sharks is better understood. In fact, a nurse shark pup is more likely to survive in less than ideal water quality. So, it's not cruel to try to keep an animal that may have a 50% survival rate (at best) vs. a shark pup in a 300 gallon tank. Does anyone see my point? I just see an unfortunate trend here. We are quick to condemn the actions of others when they involve sharks, but we don't consider what we have in our own tanks might not be that different. Okay, so we get some legislation passed on the ban of nurse shark pup sales. Will that save a lot of nurse shark lives? Sure it will. However, I'm afraid that those kinds of solutions will start us down a road that we don't want to go down. What would be next? Okay, Moorish Idols, groupers, blue spotted rays, anemones? What about tangs? Most of them get pretty large. I'm sure that we could find some science to support the argument that the natural home range of a yellow tang is such that we should ban them from aquarium sales. The entire hobby could be and is considered to be "cruel." Sorry, but a 3,000 gallon tank still isn't sufficient for bonnethead and blacktips (especially the non-reef dwelling species that you can catch around here and Florida).
Now, I agree that we should all know our limits. Furthermore, I think we should help our fellow hobbyist to understand their limits. But all this discussion about cruelty and our double standards is dangerous for all of us. My point, let's encourge responsiblity, but not be so quick to judge.
moraymike
Member
Now, this is cruelty. I found this on foxnews.
Cops: Teens Broke Into Aquarium to Torture Sharks
Wednesday, November 10, 2004
LONG BEACH, Calif. — Four young teens have been arrested after the torture and killing of two sharks (search) and a ray at a California aquarium.
Vandals broke into the Aquarium of the Pacific (search) in Long Beach Sunday night. When aquarium staff arrived Monday, they found debris in the shark tank and the cow-nose ray (search) on the concrete pool deck.
A two-foot-long, striped bamboo shark was found dead in a bird exhibit and a three-foot-long nurse shark was found in the bushes. They had been stabbed or poked with plastic pipes.
An aquarium spokeswoman says the staff was "all very sickened" by what happened.
Police say three 13-year-olds and one 14-year-old were arrested while trying to break into the aquarium a second time Monday night. They're being held on suspicion of animal cruelty and trespassing.
Cops: Teens Broke Into Aquarium to Torture Sharks
Wednesday, November 10, 2004
LONG BEACH, Calif. — Four young teens have been arrested after the torture and killing of two sharks (search) and a ray at a California aquarium.
Vandals broke into the Aquarium of the Pacific (search) in Long Beach Sunday night. When aquarium staff arrived Monday, they found debris in the shark tank and the cow-nose ray (search) on the concrete pool deck.
A two-foot-long, striped bamboo shark was found dead in a bird exhibit and a three-foot-long nurse shark was found in the bushes. They had been stabbed or poked with plastic pipes.
An aquarium spokeswoman says the staff was "all very sickened" by what happened.
Police say three 13-year-olds and one 14-year-old were arrested while trying to break into the aquarium a second time Monday night. They're being held on suspicion of animal cruelty and trespassing.
E
exile415
Guest
HOW STUPID !! why would they do such a thing, then didn't harm them.
ophiura
Active Member
I couldn't imagine that. I just don't understand it.
MorayMike - I realize now I never came back to this thread, LOL...I know I had part of a reply that I saved but never finished it. I don't entirely remember what else I was going to write but my general opposition in some of these cases is the "I did it so I must have figured out the secret, etc - you try too in some small tank." Actually, I don't think we are all THAT far apart.
[hr]
No, I definitely see your point, and I actually don't know that
we are that far off from each other because I don't think either of us
agree with being able to keep whatever we want and screw the animals
and environment. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people with that
attitude out there. I am definitely quick to judge (score very high
on that aspect of my personality) but I am open to people keeping
things if they are demonstrating understanding, knowledge and are
attempting to provide for something with known issues. So if you have
your metal halides and pristine water quality in your mature reef
tank...I'm pretty open to keeping anemones. If you have your 300g reef
tank, and wish to try a moorish idol, that is a heck of a lot better
than most fates...but know the limitations of success/failure with
certain animals. I'm also not for keeping things with sketchy intention of giving it to a public aquarium etc down the road when it is too big or something - no firm long term plans in the works.
MorayMike - I realize now I never came back to this thread, LOL...I know I had part of a reply that I saved but never finished it. I don't entirely remember what else I was going to write but my general opposition in some of these cases is the "I did it so I must have figured out the secret, etc - you try too in some small tank." Actually, I don't think we are all THAT far apart.
[hr]
No, I definitely see your point, and I actually don't know that
we are that far off from each other because I don't think either of us
agree with being able to keep whatever we want and screw the animals
and environment. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people with that
attitude out there. I am definitely quick to judge (score very high
on that aspect of my personality)
but I am open to people keepingthings if they are demonstrating understanding, knowledge and are
attempting to provide for something with known issues. So if you have
your metal halides and pristine water quality in your mature reef
tank...I'm pretty open to keeping anemones. If you have your 300g reef
tank, and wish to try a moorish idol, that is a heck of a lot better
than most fates...but know the limitations of success/failure with
certain animals. I'm also not for keeping things with sketchy intention of giving it to a public aquarium etc down the road when it is too big or something - no firm long term plans in the works.