Mandarins

[walmart]

Im sure you all are tired of hearing things about Mandarins. My tank is a 55 gallon. I would like to get one and my stocking list is as follows:
2 false perculas
1 royal gramma
1 flame angelfish
1 cleaner shrimp
1 pep shrimp
My filtration:
18 X overturn per hour
coralife super skimmer 125
10 gallon sump/5 gallon refuge (inside the 10 g)
70 lbs live rock
20 lbs live base rock
4" DSB but will cut down to 2"
soapbox homemade intank refugium
How do i breed pods in my refuge, and im willing to wait but would like to know how long i should. Will there be agression between the mandarin between the angelfish since the mandarin will go after him?

 

[shrimpi]

this is taken from wetweb
""Foods/Feeding/Nutrition:
Whatever other writers have stated, Mandarins almost never accept enough of anything other than live foods that are omnipresent in their system to sustain themselves. A nutrient rich live rock reef tank, read that as one heavily populated with hard substrates, with substantial interstitial crustacean and worm, and other small sessile invertebrate life of about 100 gallons will support one individual. And this assumes you have no similar food-competing tankmates.
In the wild their food choices are principally small crustaceans and worms. You can culture these "incidentally" in a large main/display system with lots of substrate and/or live rock, but adding a live fishless refugium will go an immense distance in assuring your mandarin/s receive sufficient live food. These fishes cannot live on dried-prepared or frozen/defrosted, or chopped meaty foods.
Compatibility
Callionymids are very docile when it comes to competing for food or space and must need be kept with other very easygoing fish species or perish from harassment or lack of food. Also overly aggressive invertebrates should not be mixed with them. Dragonets are good reef aquarium specimens, leaving alone all desirable species, but may in turn be consumed by anemones, the large coral anemone (Amplexidiscus), or large crustaceans. Ideal tankmates include tube-mouthed fishes (seahorses, Pipefishes), small blennies, Jawfishes and gobies, Dartfishes, flasher and fairy wrasses. Larger wrasses, Dottybacks, goatfishes, most butterflyfishes, angels and puffers, triggers are definitely out.
Though seemingly defenseless in their slow swimming and "scooting" locomotion, this group of fishes is widely unpalatable… some evidence exists that their body slime is toxic or at least unpalatable. This and a prominent gill cover spine serves these fishes well as predator deterrents in most cases. A related note re this opercular spine; take care to scoop out mandarins with a bag or specimen container rather than a mesh net, as these can get fouled easily with the protuberance.
You may well see them kept in a group at a dealers but be warned, this is not a natural setting, and all species should be kept either one to a tank or as a single male with more than one female or a heterosexual pair. Otherwise, unless the tank is very large (hundreds of gallons) eventually you will see them fighting vigorously."""

 

[shrimpi]

you can seed your fuge with pods by buying them, or you can sift some out of your DT and throw them in there.
Check out this
*please do not post links to other sites that promotes other boards or stores.*
OK, Ive posted this link before and it wasnt deleted? So I guess Ill make a monster

post of what was in the link.
PART ONE OF COPEPODS
Copepod Culturing:
There are many reasons to culture copepods and each of these reasons has its own set of requirements to gauge success. For purposes of this discussion, we will use the basis of culturing copepods to provide more diverse live food for a reef aquarium. It should also be understood that this is only one way to achieve the desired results and like most things in this hobby, there are many ways to achieve success.
Parts:
The first step, as in any project, is to assemble the parts we will need for the project.
1 – 10 gal tank
1 – Small air pump
1 – 2 gang air valve
1 – 36" ¼" rigid tube (cut in two equal pieces)
1 – 12" section of ¼" airline
1 – 24" section of ¼" airline
1 – 36" section of ¼" airline
1 – Acrylic lid with holes for rigid tube
Assembly:
The next step is to assemble the parts.
1) Connect the air pump to the gang valve with the 12" section of ¼" airline.
2) Connect each gang valve to the two remaining sections of airline.
3) Connect a piece of rigid tubing to the ends of the two airline sections.
4) Insert the rigid tubing in two of the holes in the acrylic lid. Place them at opposite ends of the tank. This will allow for better flow through the tank.
Select a source for phytoplankton to feed the Copepods
Phytoplankton can be found from many sources, including home culturing. Commercially available phytoplankton will tend to be more concentrated than home grown cultures. Pictured here are examples of DT's Live Marine Phytoplankton, Reed Mariculture's Plankton Live FeedDiet, and the typical 2-liter bottle of home grown phytoplankton. Which ever source you decide to use, make sure you use according to instructions to prevent contamination and spoilage.
Nannochlroposis is my preferred phytoplankton to feed copepods. Others may work as well or better, but Nannochlropsis is widely available from both commercial and home grown sources.
Once we have the phytoplankton, we need to fill the culture tank with an appropriate amount of phytoplankton. To prevent spillage and some of the mess, I typically fill the tank less than half full.
Now we have the culture tank filled and ready for copepods, not just yet. We need to make sure the culture tank parameters are within ranges.
Temperature – For culturing copepods, I do not use a tank heater. I have had great success with room temperature. So what is room temperature? It means a room that is typically considered comfortable. This does not include the room with no insulation on the Northwest side of a house on the plains of North Dakota in January.
Salinity – It is best to match the culture tank to the tank to be fed. This helps eliminate the possibility of salinity shock for the copepods.
Airflow – With the culture tank filled with phytoplankton, we can set up the airflow. This does not need to be forceful, but does have to provide some circulation. I found that adjusting the airflow to a rate slow enough to count the bubbles to be adequate.
Lighting – Ambient room lighting or low wattage fluorescent lighting.
Adding the Copepods:
If we've successfully completed all the above, we can now add the copepods. When adding the copepods try to insure they are near the same water parameters as that of the culture tank. If not, try to "acclimate" them slowly, although they are quite hardy. Standard acclimation procedures will work fine.

 

[walmart]

How do i culture my own phytoplankton, and how often should i be adding the pods to the tank?

 

[murph]

Probably should not buy the fish for your size system unless you intend to make an effort to food train the fish first.
The above info is true for the most part but if the fish is trained to take frozen mysis it will not only sustain it for the long term but the fish will thrive.
You will encounter a lot of naysayers when it comes to this species but from my experience the majority can be trained to take prepared foods. Bottom line is the fish is already in captivity. The odds of it ending up in a tank that can provide the needed micro faun are almost zero so food training efforts are pretty much mandatory.
Check out melvs reef mandarin diner. He came up with a good way to feed his food trained mandarin(s) in even a highly competitive community tank.

 

[walmart]

I am going to culture pods in a different tank. and add pods to his den freq.
I am also prepared to give other foods if need arises.

 

[shrimpi]

PART TWO OF LINK TO COPEPODS
Culturing:
With the phytoplankton and copepods added to the tank and the airflow set up properly, we are now culturing copepods. Well, we got started. The idea is to keep a green tint to the water, the greener the better to cultivate copepods to feed the target tank. As the water clears in color, add more phytoplankton. Once we reach the desired density we can start feeding the target tank.
What density are we looking to achieve before we start feeding? This depends on the target tank. Once you start seeing copepods gathering on the tank glass, you probably have a good density.
These pictures show a copepod tank that has consumed the phytoplankton and the culture water has gone clear.
Having the culture water turn clear in color is not a 'bad thing,’ but it is something we should try to avoid. If this does happen, we are left with two options:
1) Add more phytoplankton to the culture tank to return the water to a green color.
2) Drain the tank through a strainer (53 micron works well), and then backwash the copepods into the culture tank with fresh phytoplankton. When draining the tank, I use a small diameter rigid tube to siphon out the water and copepods. When draining/siphoning the tank, try to minimize the amount of 'gunk' that is siphoned out.
The 'gunk' that builds up on the bottom of the tank is normal. Eventually, we will need to change the culture water and restart the culture. This can be done by following Option 2 above.
Feeding:
Feeding methods vary from person to person. I will quickly describe the two methods I use to feed my tanks.
1) Scoop out the desired feeding amount from the culture tank and pour it into the target tank. Replace the feeding amount taken from the culture tank with fresh phytoplankton. Because this is simple, it is my preferred method.
2) The second method is to do the same as above except strain the copepods from the culture water and then backwash into the target tank. This reduces the amount of culture tank water added to the target tank.
Cross-Culture-Contamination:
I haven't seen any ill effects from cross-contamination of cultures, with the exception of brine shrimp. It seems brine shrimp will eat almost anything and that includes copepods. It is possible to have a dual culture of copepods and rotifers.
Miscellaneous Notes:
1) Don't worry if the water goes clear. I have had some copepods in a 2 liter bottle with no phytoplankton added for almost 3 months. They might have lasted longer, but I added some phytoplankton.
2) Divide the 10 gal tank into two equal sections with a piece of plexiglass. This allows you to have two cultures of copepods and gives you some redundancy in case of a culture crash.
3) Don't be afraid to feed the target tank. I have deliberately fed large amounts of copepods to my main tank, and I have yet to see a negative impact.
4) Try to change the culture tank water every 4 weeks on average or as water parameters warrant. This will help keep the quality of the culture water higher.
5) When feeding from the culture tank, try not to scoop the bottom of the culture tank. If you scoop the bottom of the tank, you stir up a lot of waste that then potentially gets put into your target tank.
6) Share your cultures with others and educate them on the ease of culturing live foods.

 

[shrimpi]

pics that went along with the link

These pictures show a copepod tank that has consumed the phytoplankton and the culture water has gone clear.

I think this information is a great reference to kick start a copepod factory.

 

[lesleybird]

After the novilty wears off you won't want to go to all the trouble of raising pods for a mandarin. I used to want one but after raising pods in a ten gallon and realizing how long they took to reproduce any substantual population, and knowing that other fish in the tank will eat all your pods too.....and realizing that after I got all these great little worms that clean my sand bed that I don't want them eaten....I forgot about any mandarin. Besides, I think it is cruel to keep one in captivity and slowly let it starve to death over a couple of months. Ps I thought they only ate amphapods and worms, not those tiny green copapods in the tank in the pictures which I think only feed the amphapods and baby fish. I could be wrong. Lesley

 

[poniegirl]

I agree with both Murph and Leslie, to a couple of points.
A few honest truths probably exsist to keep mandarinfish.
1) I believe you probably can train them to accept prepared foods, but you will need to concentrate on doing so. With a small QT tank (it they are there anyway, why not attempt to put the time to use?) it will be easier to isolate and define their feeding habits.
2) Notice the photos of the tanks that are in this post to culture live crustacean/worms...these creatures that feed live-feeding fish breed in not-so-pristine conditions. Some algae, some seclusion, some tank maturity. The tank does not have to be a cesspool, but reality is what it is.
3) I also think, as with seahorses, if there were the breeding focus on mandarins they could become easier to maintain.
JMO

 

[murph]

Lots of good info in this thread.
The third point poniegirl made is valid. I remember when species that are now commonly recommended as good for beginners were considered "impossible" to keep in home aquariums. This pretty much included all coral and filter feeders. I am sure if I ventured up into my parents attic I could find some old books that stated the keeping of SW tanks in general was impossible and only for advanced aquarium keepers. Things have come a long way since those days
This is why I take it with a grain of salt when I hear those same attitudes expressed about aspects of the hobby these days. Certainly common sense must be followed but to deal in absolutes backed up by nothing more than the fact they've been repeated so often they have become excepted as fact does little more than retard the advancement of the hobby in general.
Personally I even have my suspicions about the vast amount of LR and high dollar skimmers that are considered must have these days. There is only one group that this benefits 100 percent and that's the people selling these items. Recommended entry level cost for this hobby have soared and there can be little doubt it is keeping people out of the hobby.
To get back on topic food training mandarins is not particularly difficult IMO. Selection is important. Get the largest fattest mandarin the LFS has and make sure it is at least taking live brine before you purchase it. Cycle out a small tank set up in normal manner and add a mandarin and second small, docile and slow feeding fish (firefish).
From there is just a matter of several small feedings a day consisting of a mixture of live brine and frozen mysis. Some feedings should be mysis only. The second fish will serve to indicate to the mandarin that items other than brine are indeed food items. After the mandarin is taking frozen mysis IMO it can be placed in any size tank with the appropriate tank mates and will actually fare better in smaller systems where it will receive less competition for food items and its dietary intake can be more easily verified. Believe it or not I consider food trained mandarins an excellent candidate for nanosystems.

 

[dragonladylea]

Step 1) Find someone that has an established sump/fuge with cheato, get them to give you some. Put it in your sump/fuge. 99% of the time its full of Pods.
Step 2) Make a small pile of reef rubble in your tank. It will house the pods once they make it into the tank via the intake.
Step 3) Wait a few weeks and buy a "healthy" Mandarin. This is the key!!! If it isnt "fat" it is already starving.
Step 4) Enjoy!

 

[walmart]

I have a bad return pump, a rio. Will the pods survive the ride back up to the aquarium? Are you talking about live sand in the fuge or macroalgae?
Where should the rock rubble be in the tank?
How will i know the pods are even getting to the return pump?
Im clueless on this part, everyone says you alreayd have pods in your tank ( I know I do) but i can never tell if they are making it into the tank from the fuge.

 

[shrimpi]

To get back on topic food training mandarins is not particularly difficult IMO. Selection is important. Get the largest fattest mandarin the LFS has and make sure it is at least taking live brine before you purchase it. Cycle out a small tank set up in normal manner and add a mandarin and second small, docile and slow feeding fish (firefish).
This is a very good rule of thumb when considering a mandarin. I found MANY mandarins I fell in love with before I actually purchased one. I made the LFS feed it in front of me over and over. I ended up purchasing one that eats prepared foods (although he is picky- we are working on more diversity) and was a FAT little guy. I think that if you are going to get a mandarin, alot of focus should be put on getting one that is or will eat prepared foods. Its the best way to ensure they are getting enough protein. Most mandarins starve in the home aquarium. Even in big tanks. And as stated previously, many of them are already 'starved' before you get them. Even though mine was the healthiest one I could find (over the course of a few months) He still had room for improvement, and has gotten even fatter. He is the only fish in the tank besides a goby (sandsifter). Competition is a problem that should be very well considered.
I set up my tank knowing that this fish was going to be the 'centerpeice' and I did it all for him. Community tanks are often a recipe for disaster for this fish. I target feed mine twice a day with prepared foods soaked in Zoe, and its worth the time and patience. Ive only had mine since 3/07 so he is still in the 'could die very easily- no claim to sucess yet' time period.

But Im trying the best I think I can offer him. I also have a fuge.

 

[1journeyman]

Couple of points:
1. It's not really about "training" them to eat frozen foods. Their mouth structures are very tiny and it's difficult for them to eat frozen foods. Many simply cannot/will not. Not being able to "train one=starving Mandarin.
2. A refugium works because of lack of predation. Putting a Mandarin in a refugium turns the refugium into another aquarium. They will eat all of the pods there.

 

[walmart]

I think i am going to culture lots and lots of pods, in 2 refugiums and a seperate 10 g tank for culturing pods only and offer 2 tblspoons every 2 days and may tank should create enough pods too?
How many pods does a mandarin eat in a 24 hours period?

 

[murph]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Couple of points:
1. It's not really about "training" them to eat frozen foods. Their mouth structures are very tiny and it's difficult for them to eat frozen foods. Many simply cannot/will not. Not being able to "train one=starving Mandarin.
2. A refugium works because of lack of predation. Putting a Mandarin in a refugium turns the refugium into another aquarium. They will eat all of the pods there.
Have to disagree; it is most definitely about 'training" them and they are quite capable of taking frozen if not dry foods when obtained at a reasonable size.
Even large home aquariums will go through declines in micro fauna population. Its a natural thing and combine that with competition from other tank mates and you have a problem.
Unless fuges are gravity feeding into the display (a rare setup) this is of little help either. Especially considering most returns pumps use a prefilter to protect them and little to no micro fauna reaches the display.
I am speaking from experience here. I have food trained half a dozen. One of my subjects I still see on almost daily basis in my brothers 55 gal fugeless community tank who lives a few doors down from me. He is as big around as the size of my index finger and actively eats mysis.
Another I see pretty much every weekend and a resides in a nanosystem with a fire fish and also has no problems taking frozen my sis and fortified frozen brine.
I will also refer to melves reef again where media has been uploaded of not particularly large Mandarin feeding on dry pellet out of small olives jars that have been placed on the substrate to prevent other community fish from stealing there meal.

 

[1journeyman]

For every success story there are countless failures.
I'm not saying that some can't be trained, I'm saying that biologically they are not well suited for it. Look closely at the jaw and mouth of a Dragonet.
Pods are tiny.. I have thousands upon thousands in my refugium. They are easily introduced into the tank because they are small enough to go right through the prefilter. The adults are only the size of a needle head. That's what a Mandarin normally eats. There is no good frozen substitute yet that mimics their selective food.
I'm not arguing that you have done it, I'm just saying that thousands of others haven't. Michael's, Fenner, Calfo, etc. seem to agree.

 

[murph]

Bottom line is its a common, inexpensive species and thousands end up in LFS holding tanks. Discouraging people from making attempts to adapt these fish to there state of captivity, a condition which is not going to change, means they most likely will die a slow death. People are not going to stop buying them and the odds of one ending up in a system that can sustain them on micro fauna production alone for the long term is low if not zero.
Food training and dietary substitution is hardly a new idea in SW or FW aquarium keeping. Breeding efforts in SW and FW species is dependant on this concept and its success.
Would you prefer that breeder give up on there efforts because they can not exactly mirror the dietary conditions of the fry they are trying to raise and turn those efforts to wild collection? Of course not.
pods and mysis are close cousins and mysis is a suitable dietary substitution which will allow the fish to live for years in captivity.