May the force be with you texas!

[ophiura]

Hurricane Alicia was a catagory 3 hurricane that killed 21 people or so and caused extensive flooding.
Tropical Storm Allison hit a few years ago and also caused extensive flooding and destruction after it basically stalled out.]
IMO, I would say that there is a considerable difference between how New Orleans handled their storm, and the plans for Galveston and Houston. But it was on paper, and though they followed it, there were a lot of issues not taken into consideration that they are learning about now. This storm is scheduled to hit Saturday morning, and evacuations were being carried out on Tuesday, with buses etc used to remove people from Galveston, hospitals and nursing homes...lots of plans and opportunities for people to call for assistance, etc. But nothing works perfectly when it involves so many unknowns (eg taking into account another major hurricane with regional impacts only a few weeks prior). Clearly there are major issues and they best get their acts together...but all in all they've been very clear and decisive in what they want from people. The actual logistics are just not working out.

 

[molamola]

Alicia was deffinately a hurricane. I was four and it was the freakiest thing I've ever been through. The problem with Alicia was that nobody thought it was going to come here and then at the last minute, it turned and surprised everybody.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by ophiura
Hurricane Alicia was a catagory 3 hurricane that killed 21 people or so and caused extensive flooding.
Tropical Storm Allison hit a few years ago and also caused extensive flooding and destruction after it basically stalled out.]
IMO, I would say that there is a considerable difference between how New Orleans handled their storm, and the plans for Galveston and Houston. But it was on paper, and though they followed it, there were a lot of issues not taken into consideration that they are learning about now. This storm is scheduled to hit Saturday morning, and evacuations were being carried out on Tuesday, with buses etc used to remove people from Galveston, hospitals and nursing homes...lots of plans and opportunities for people to call for assistance, etc. But nothing works perfectly when it involves so many unknowns (eg taking into account another major hurricane with regional impacts only a few weeks prior). Clearly there are major issues and they best get their acts together...but all in all they've been very clear and decisive in what they want from people. The actual logistics are just not working out.
My mistake regarding the past hurricanes.
Both recent disaster evacuation plans point out that large metro areas are not ready. THe smaller areas south of New Orleans were out long before the New Orleans area..similar to Galveston being evacuated earlier in the week.
I hope other large metro areas regardless of location review their evacuation plan(s). We sometimes know when natural disaster will strike ahead of time and also the approximate location...it is the man made disasters and possible terrorists attacks that can hit all areas and sometimes with little to no warning.
I heard the Houstom Mayor state there were not enough govenrment vehicles to move people without transportation.

 

[moraymike]

Yeah, I was in Houston for Hurricane Alicia. I think I was in 4th or 5th grade maybe? Anyway, lots of wind, no water or power for several days.
Things are getting crazy up here... we're getting a lot of the Houston traffic.
Ophiura, are you going to stay?

 

[hot883]

God be with you Texans! We are expecting mega amounts of rain up here in N. Okla. My sister lives in New Braunfels, she is getting ready for all the wind and rain projected. Anyway, good luck. Barry

 

[scubadoo]

I hope folks will be okay...this does not sound like the area is prepared...jsut a few weeks ago too...
September 04, 2005
Houston's non-plan for emergencies
Hurricane Katrina should be teaching our local and regional officials important lessons. The Houston Chronicle reports on some alarming lapses in planning so far. It seems that all the details are being left to the Red Cross.
As more than 100,000 Hurricane Katrina victims poured into the folds of America's fourth-largest city, this national emergency forced even the most storm-savvy among local leaders to realize Houston's hurricane playbook may need an overhaul.
"There was no emergency plan for the destruction of one of America's largest cities immediately to our east. Not the federal, state and local level," Houston Mayor Bill White said. "I don't think, incidentally, that it's principally a local responsibility for doing that plan, nor am I finger-pointing.
"If someone here had forecasted the destruction of New Orleans, then I'd like to join your church."
Despite a flurry of hurricane preparedness in this state in the past year after Texas officials watched four hurricanes pummel Florida in 2004, serious gaps in the overall evacuation plan continue to exist, experts say. And this week's transfer of Katrina victims into semi-permanent housing at the Astrodome highlighted how sheltering options during a disaster have to be reassessed.
Until this week, little public attention was paid to the city's dryly titled "City of Houston Emergency Management Plan," which barely refers to semi-permanent housing options.
"Evacuees normally return to their homes as soon as the danger has passed. Hence, most shelters are closed quickly and returned to normal use," the plan reads. Neither the Astrodome nor any other specific facility is referenced as a place to house evacuees.
"Sheltering may include congregate sheltering or the use of commercial facilities, such as motels and hotels, as shelters for individuals or families," the plan states. "Shelters are intended as a safe haven from impending disaster and/or short-term emergency housing until disaster victims can return to their homes or locate alternate housing after a disaster. Whether before or after a disaster, shelters will be located in safe areas and will provide appropriate services."
The plan doesn't get much more specific than that, nor is it much more specific about food, for example:
"ARC (American Red Cross) through agreement will: Provide emergency food."
Houston, which hasn't been affected by a Category 4 storm since 1961, never expected to face the kind of long-term housing needs such a storm would present.
"Our plan does not have designated shelter areas," said Dennis Storemski, Houston's chief of emergency management. "The city doesn't necessarily plan for that. The Red Cross is responsible for shelters. The Red Cross is the shelter component. FEMA will come in and figure out the long-term housing."
Houston, more than 50 miles from the Gulf, sees itself as an evacuation destination, not a direct target for evacuations. Historically, that's not been an unreasonable assumption.
"Houston is not New Orleans," Storemski said. "I can't imagine having to evacuate the city of Houston."
But that scenario is not out of the realm of possibility, said Carla Prater, associate director of the Hazard Reduction and Recovery Center at Texas A&M University.
"It doesn't take much in Houston, it doesn't take a hurricane. It takes a bad thunderstorm. It's a real serious problem," Prater said of the threats posed by severe weather.
Houston sits on layers of concrete with few escape routes for excess water.
One good hurricane strike in Galveston could send floodwaters up its bayou system through the 55-mile-long ship channel that connects Galveston Bay to Houston.
"That's very real," Prater said. "Not a pretty thought."

 

[scubadoo]

Hopefully they will get it figured out and take care of folks on those highways. Just read a story about evacuees on the road with quotes. Really troubling.
May God be wih all the good folks of TX and LA.
Houston ws obviously not ready...who knows if any large metro area ever will be when facing disaster

 

[scubadoo]

Oh goodness...storm looks like it is moving more to the west now...hope it is just a wobble as that would not be good for Houston. Also, just west of where it is now is warmer waters...could explode in strength again shuould this more westerly course continue.
lets hope it is a WOBBLE

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by MorayMike
Yeah, I was in Houston for Hurricane Alicia. I think I was in 4th or 5th grade maybe? Anyway, lots of wind, no water or power for several days.
Things are getting crazy up here... we're getting a lot of the Houston traffic.
Ophiura, are you going to stay?
I would advise leaving.....as structural damage in houston will be widepread should they receive a direct hit. Even though 40--60 miles inland damge will be extensive.
Getting jammed on the highway with an approaching strom is not too safe either.

 

[ophiura]

No the area wasn't prepared for something of this magnitude...especially when having the "luxury" of 20/20 hindsight of Katrina a few weeks ago. I think after seeing Houston's situation, cities will assess what would happen if the city needed to be evacuated. As I am not entirely up on what is causing the issues, I can't accuse anyone of using the resources properly or not. At least people are saying "whoa, we've got a problem" and not pointing fingers at who knows what and denying responsibility so far as I can tell. Government officials responded quickly and decisively, IMO, once the storm was heading here. They made use of resources to quickly and almost completely evacuate Galveston, including the elderly, disabled, and those without transportation. There is a very large medical school and hospitals there. They did an outstanding job with several days to spare. The plans for evacuation - who and when - were very clear, very emphatic. Obviously the later plans on shelters, housing, etc rely on what we NOW know to be flawed resources in FEMA, etc. They had several models of what would happen, and they have been showing people over and over since Katrina to get them to move. The thing that wasn't anticipated, probably because it was never actually done anywhere but on paper, were the traffic problems from evacuations of people in the storm surge flood zone...and everyone else who decided to leave. What wasn't anticipated was that everyone would listen and leave, that is the 20/20 hindsight from Katrina.

 

[snailheave]

houston, we've got a problem

 

[moraymike]

Be safe Ophiura and all other Texans (and LA folks)... We'll catch you on the flip side.

 

[scubadoo]

Obviously Galveston had a plan that was effective. The City of Houston had no plan or it was ineffective . A contraflow plan should have been in place and implemented long before the gridlock.
Many communites south of N.O did evacuate days in advance. similair to Galveston
What we are seeing is a repeat of a large city unprepared with no traffic control /evacuation plan or one that was/is non-responsive and/or proactive. It appeared to be reacting to a need rather then anticipating the need. I hope other cities are watching. Houston should have plans for a Ct 4 5 storm evacuation process...they obviously did not or they simply screwed it up.
In the article I pasted, Stromeski Houston's Cheif of Emergency Management stated he could not imagine having to evacuate Houston. If you do not possess the cognitive skill to imagine it then I do not see how you can plan for it. ..and the result unfolds on TV.
Lets hope everyone gets to safety in time and other cities watch and learn.
JMO

 

[scubadoo]

Water pouring into Ninth Ward; waist high and rising
10:11 AM CDT on Friday, September 23, 2005
Associated Press
Hurricane Rita's steady rains sent water pouring through breaches in a patched levee Friday, cascading into one of the city's lowest-lying neighborhoods in a devastating repeat of New Orleans' flooding nightmare.
"Our worst fears came true," said Maj. Barry Guidry of the Georgia National Guard.
"We have three significant breeches in the levee and the water is rising rapidly," he said. "At daybreak I found substantial breaks and they've grown larger."
Dozens of blocks in the Ninth Ward were under water as a waterfall at least 30 feet wide poured over and through a dike that had been used to patch breaks in the Industrial Canal levee. On the street that runs parallel to the canal, the water ran waist-deep and was rising fast. Guidry said water was rising about three inches a minute.
The impoverished neighborhood was one of the areas of the city hit hardest by Katrina's floodwaters and finally had been pumped dry before Hurricane Rita struck.
Sally Forman, an aide to Mayor Ray Nagin, said officials knew the levees were compromised, but they believe that the Ninth Ward is cleared of residents. "I wouldn't imagine there's one person down there," Forman said.
Mitch Frazier, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers, said contractors were being brought in Friday morning in an effort to repair the new damage. The corps had earlier installed 60-foot sections of metal across some of the city's canals to protect against flooding and storm surges.
Forecasters have called for between 3 and 5 inches of rain in New Orleans as Rita passes Friday and Saturday, dangerously close to the 6 inches of rain that Corps officials say the patched levees can withstand.
Another concern is the storm surge accompanying Rita, which could send water rising as much as 4 feet above high tide.
Already Friday morning, a steady 20 mph wind, with gusts to 35 mph, was blowing, along with steady rains.

 

[ross]

I live in a little town SE of San Antonio and one of the ways from the coast is through our little town, it has been packed since a couple days ago, a steady stream of traffic. Gas stations ran out of gas yesterday but got more, there is a line at the pump. Surpringly they havent gone up on prices much as of yesterday, it was 2.58 but today i think they went up! Our town has a pop of 878 in the city limits and it is easily doubling that with everyone coming from the coast!

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
What we are seeing is a repeat of a large city unprepared with no traffic control /evacuation plan or one that was/is non-responsive and/or proactive. It appeared to be reacting to a need rather then anticipating the need. I hope other cities are watching. Houston should have plans for a Ct 4 5 storm evacuation process...they obviously did not or they simply screwed it up.
How can you possibly accuse politicians and other elected or appointed officials of screwing up

LOL I think what caught them off guard is that people actually listened to them. How often do people care what they say?

They learned a lesson that in times of need, people actually DO look to them for guidance and they actually DO have an obligation to come up with a workable plan.

 

[lovethesea]

Amen !!

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by MorayMike
Be safe Ophiura and all other Texans (and LA folks)... We'll catch you on the flip side.

We're good here, I hope. And we've actually MET the neighbors. Funny how something like this makes people stop and chat. All in all, I think it has brought the best out in many people. My husband and loads of others went to Lowe's yesterday. They were controlling the number of people in the store at any time but everyone was chatting and saving spots in line. He was there the day before to get some of the last plywood, and a guy had to go get his truck. But if he left, he wouldn't get any plywood. So my husband just waited with wood for both of them while he got his truck. Lots of neighborly things going on right now. I have my parents here from Galveston. My Mom has lots of back issues and the 6 hour drive really had a major impact...one of the reasons we aren't getting back into the car for hours and hours. They could take the heat or the sitting, etc. I've got about 90g or more of drinking water, not including the 2 bathtubs and about 40g additional of drinkable but more "flushable" if you get my drift, water. We're on the "clean" side and not expecting hurricane force winds but you can never be certain what may happen. Better to pour it out later than not have it now.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by ophiura
How can you possibly accuse politicians and other elected or appointed officials of screwing up

LOL I think what caught them off guard is that people actually listened to them. How often do people care what they say?

They learned a lesson that in times of need, people actually DO look to them for guidance and they actually DO have an obligation to come up with a workable plan.
The fact they were caught "off guard" is indication they were not prepared. Your point is contrary to your position IMO.
As witnessed in N.O. and in Houston IMO...being caught of guard or under prepared or under anticipating evacuation traffic is not a vaild excuse. Both of these events were no test....it was live impacting lives and in some instances life. The evacuation plans are the responsibility of government as far as movement of perople on infrastructure. When it looks like it doesn't work or is not working then there is not too many places you can assign blame. ...if balme is to be assigned for failure and/or inadequacy and human suffering .
Lets hope Houston and NO have learned the lesson...but the important point is that other large metro areas pay attention and review what they have in place.
I recall reading an article last week regarding Milwaukee. Certainly, a hurricnae would not hit this city but they were wanting to review thier city evacuation plan.
They stated it was so old they could not find it and were uncertain where it was filed. Alarming!
You'll probably be okay should the storm move up the coast. Certainly you will have hurricane force winds. Possible minor roof damage and loss of power.
I beleive the big story after landfall castrophe will be the fresh water flooding from rain. it is predicted to stall over land and dump huge amounts of rain in TX.
Unfortuantely, we do need to rely on all levels of government during times of disaster. Many times they simply let folks down. I hope not too many suffered on those miserable freeways. What I have read was truly sad.
THoughts and prayers to you and your faimly.
After this hits I HOPE better days are ahead...could they possibly be darker then this past month? Let's hope not.

 

[ophiura]

So far as I can tell they adapted relatively quickly. Maybe not as fast as they should have, but the roads are basically clear now well before the arrival of the storm...not a drop of rain yet. So there was definitely a glitch in the plan, but they were decisive and got things rolling again, IMO. The scale of this evacuation is huge, bound to run into problems. But overall I am pretty happy with the local government and how they have handled things. They need to review things and improve them, but I do think they got most people (including the poor, elderly, sick, etc) out of harms way with time to spare. For something that has never been tried before, and a massive scale, it has gone relatively well all in all. Just whatever they did to ease the traffic problems eventually, needs to be done as soon as they order the mandatory evacuation and not 12+ hours later.