Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

[santamonica]

Well it would be interesting to see what it would do to your 65g, in combination with your skimmer of course. It's a good and true point you make about oils and fats, but as with the arguments about DOC's, is there real and direct harm from them being in the water, like there is direct harm from phosphate? Also, being organics, I'm sure they can still be called "foods" just like they are foods to humans. Surely something must consume them to live.
I would just as soon remove as much waste as I can with a skimmer, before it breaks down, and allow the scrubber to get the residual amounts.
Yes but why not just let the food you put in circulate until consumed or decomposed? Don't worry about N and P... there won't be any. And since the food can circulate until decomposed, you can feed less (you are not feeding your skimmer).
by not removing any solid organics the stuff that remains HAS to accumulate some where, eventually you will hit the end capacity for the turf scrubber to handle the end results of nitrogen, and your nitrate and phosphate levels will start to climb.
Not sure I agree here. A pound of food will produce X amount of N, P, and inert leftover matter. Once that N and P are taken by the turf, the process starts back at zero; it does not continue from where it left off (it can't; the N and P have been removed.) The only thing collecting is the inorganic inert matter.... dust. As long as the RATE of feeding does not overload how fast the turf can grow, you will see no increase in N and P. If you did massive overfeeding and saw N and P rise, reduced feeding would allow the turf to catch up and N and P would be back at zero.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2722504
Also, being organics, I'm sure they can still be called "foods" just like they are foods to humans. Surely something must consume them to live.
Interesting question/statement, and I answer with a question (unfortunatly), what is to gaurantee the we have introduced appropriate life forms to utilize those organics in the latter forms? since even a 2000 gallon tank can only pale by comparison, I would advise against risking the possibility, that maybe we have a use for once or twice or three or four times digested organics.
Obviously our reefs are not nearly as complete an ecosystem as the ocean which has many life forms to fill al niches and currents to carry waste to elsewhere where it can be utilized, we are locked in a closed system, so is the waste. Denizens can be no more than exactly what we introduce.
in the ocean detritus in the long run ends up (eventually) in the deep abyssopelagic zone drifting down to depths inhabited by echinoderms that live on waste like seapig and basket stars. some thing we cant mimic easily. the waste goes somewhere in the ocean, in our tanks it should too.

[hr]
on a secondary note, this seems to be on the supposition that ONLY nitrates and phosphates are the result of organics breaking down..... there are various gasses and compounds released in the break down of organic matter avoiding trouble with these is best addressed by removing the organics before the byproducts become problematic. (things such as amino acids that lower PH dramaticly and can have disasterous results on tanks)

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2722504
Well it would be interesting to see what it would do to your 65g, in combination with your skimmer of course. It's a good and true point you make about oils and fats, but as with the arguments about DOC's, is there real and direct harm from them being in the water, like there is direct harm from phosphate? Also, being organics, I'm sure they can still be called "foods" just like they are foods to humans. Surely something must consume them to live.
I'm not a skeptic of Turf Scrubbers (Oldtimer term) so don't get me wrong.
They are an excellent addition to a reef system for removing excess Nitrate, Phosphate, and even Ammonia. But I still say they should be used in addition to live rock and a good skimmer.
Yes, DOCs will actually eventually break down and be consumed by bacteria resulting in Nitrate and Phosphate that the algae can consume. Meanwhile, the DOCs interfere with gas exchange and actually make the algae much less effective. The skimmer help a LOT with this. Remove the skimmer and not only are DOCs not removed until they break down, but there's much less gas exchange without the skimmer which can result in a shortage of CO2 for the algae (Daytime) or an actual excess of CO2 (Nighttime).
And yes, a Turf scrubber is definately a type of refugium, it's just specialized for housing a specific algae.
Your posts are excellent and I would encourage anyone that wants to reduce Nitrate and Phosphate to read them to gather information. I just think it would be a mistake to remove your skimmer or rely 100% on an algal scrubber. It's a good tool, that doesn't mean it's appropriate for every application.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2722540
I'm not a skeptic of Turf Scrubbers (Oldtimer term) so don't get me wrong.
I always heard them called turf scrubber or algae scrubber. like the old style with the sloshing pan over a bed of algae, or the plank ones with armatures to raise and lower a long plank in and out of a trough of water.

 

[drtito]

It looks easy,cheap, and modd-able, I think I will give it a try. I can't hurt the tank and is simple. Get a smal bucket or bin hang it in my canopy somewhere out back and out of the way.
Thanks.....good idea all the way around.

 

[coral keeper]

Very good info...

 

[santamonica]

reefkprZ: I tried to keep my post, although very long, the most user-friendly to beginners that I could. I found most, including me the first two years, had the main problem of algae growth in the display. So my goal here is to try to make an easy decision for them that I wish I had at the time. Some of them are keen on N and P, others are not, but I think most would not want to have to learn anything beyond that for now. After their displays are clean and they are keeping some nice fish and corals, then some of them will dig into the inner workings of a lot of this stuff. I only did so myself because it's my nature, and also I saw somewhat of a gap between somthing that worked, and the users who did not know about it.
So, being that I'm not an organic chemist, I'll try not to understand much further beyond food and non-food, primarily because there is really no risk in using the system. N and P either drop, or they don't, and if they don't you through the bucket away. I know N and P are not the only remainder from rotting, but they are the only ones we can easily test for and try to control directly. The others I'll leave to the researchers/manufacturers who may want to market these things.
As for the name, Algae Turf Scrubber ("ATS") is trademarked and probably should not be used, plus, not many beginners know what a scrubber is/does (I didn't) anyways, but they do know what a filter does. And the big contraptions that you mention (the first one being patented) are so big and complicated I can see why nobody would want to build one, or even own one for free. The bucket MAY not be as efficient, but for free (and zero N and P), that's fine.
drTITO: Looking forward to pics and stories! And if you have the room above your tank like that, you'll get even more pods than the swarm that I've got (mine go through the sump). And of course the main point: It can't hurt the tank
Coral Keeper: Thanks much.
Bang: Glad you like the info in general. The technical post on -- covers much more, too.
They are an excellent addition to a reef system for removing excess Nitrate, Phosphate, and even Ammonia. But I still say they should be used in addition to live rock and a good skimmer.
Yes they do pull those well, and everyone will of course still use rock, but consider this: You feed your tank, then you remove (skim) some of the food back out. So you have to feed more to make up for this. And then, the food that is missed by the corals and the skimmer rots into N and P. So you then use other devices to get this N and P out. Finally you are where you want to be: Corals are fed, and N and P are zero.
Turf, however, doesn't "miss" any food. Any and all food that is not eaten by corals rots into N and P, which the turf eats. So your N and P are zero in this case too. But you need zero other equipment to do it (because N and P are already zero.) So both methods get you to roughly the same point. The big differences are cost, size, and weight. Oh, and the ability to keep filter feeders Of course, I'm limiting the point here to only N and P.
Remove the skimmer and not only are DOCs not removed until they break down, but there's much less gas exchange without the skimmer which can result in a shortage of CO2 for the algae (Daytime) or an actual excess of CO2 (Nighttime).

A similar point was made about ORP on another board, and I still have to ask, is there real direct harm in some less amount of exchange? For example, high P means no coralline, and tons of algae in the display. But what about a lesser amount of gas exchange? Especially considering that the cost of turf-only filtration for a tank is basically: zero. And with this, you get zero N and P. So a beginner gets his coralline, and loses his display algae. Yes there probably are harder corals he can't keep (sps?.. although Morgan at IA does), but maybe a beginner can just work around those for now As for CO2 variences, my pH has not changed from its original patterns, so at least for me I have no indication of it happening.
And I do have pods, at least if you mean copepods, there are so many that they are swarming around my tank and being chased and eaten by the small damsels nonstop. I even tried to filter them with a 25 micron sock for a week, but they were coming out of the turf so fast, I couldn't. Matter of fact when you do you weekly scrubbing of turf, you're supposed to use tap water so you'll kill the pods (pods will eat the turf). Amphipods are supposed to grow also. Anything larger than that, and you'll need a dsb/rubble/fuge.

 

[santamonica]

Here's an interesting one that someone just built... said it took him just a few minutes:

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2722843
So, being that I'm not an organic chemist, I'll try not to understand much further beyond food and non-food, primarily because there is really no risk in using the system. .
there is no risk in using the system, as part of your filtration in that your correct, the risk would be using it at the exclusion of all others as your first sentance states can be done. IMO this will be dangerous in the long run.
I'm not an organic chemist but I still will try to understand as much as I can about every aspect of reefkeeping turning a blind eye to potential disasters is just leaving a door open for one to walk through. I didnt know anything about skimmers untill I researched them and weighed the pros and cons. I didnt just throw one on my tank because people said I should, I took a long hard look at the facts first.
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2722843
I know N and P are not the only remainder from rotting, but they are the only ones we can easily test for and try to control directly. The others I'll leave to the researchers/manufacturers who may want to market these things..
testing redox (orp) is becoming more mainstream as more people understand the importance of water stability. lowered alkalinity due to PH drops can also be tested very easily, PH is easy to test. (PH) not really being a parameter but a result of multiple things such as excess organics rotting causing aminos to build in system, excess Co2 from either low air exchange or excess Co2 release during nonphotosynthetic time from photosynthetic creatures. and more there are many things that can be monitered without being a full blown chemist.
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2722843
And the big contraptions that you mention (the first one being patented) are so big and complicated I can see why nobody would want to build one, or even own one for free..
some of those really are crazy huge arent they? I would love to have one of the fullsized units just as a conversation piece. could you imagine a 20 foot trough with a plank covered in algae? what would the neighbors think?

Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2722843
A similar point was made about ORP on another board, and I still have to ask, is there real direct harm in some less amount of exchange? For example, high P means no coralline, and tons of algae in the display. But what about a lesser amount of gas exchange? Especially considering that the cost of turf-only filtration for a tank is basically: zero. And with this, you get zero N and P. So a beginner gets his coralline, and loses his display algae. Yes there probably are harder corals he can't keep (sps?.. although Morgan at IA does), but maybe a beginner can just work around those for now As for CO2 variences, my pH has not changed from its original patterns, so at least for me I have no indication of it happening.
I'm sure the size of the scrubber has alot to do with the overall fuxations in PH, the larger the unit the more you'll be able to see them, I'm not sure if you covered this in one of your precious posts but is your turf scrubber lit 24/7, if so this may be one of the reasons you dont see large or differentiating swings in PH, the turf wont go through the down time releasing Co2 if it is lit 24/7, in fact by continuing to photosynthesize after your DT goes to bed it will actually help stabilize by consuming Co2 when your corals stop.
anyhow, this is a great thread and very informational, I will definatly use the information provided here to help others find alrternatives when they are looking to lower nitrate and phosphate as often one type of filtration just doesnt cover it all. Unfortunatly (well fortunatly) my tanks are all 0 nitrate and phosphate due to my waterchange rituals, but I dont see what adding a turf scrubber to my system could hurt as my tanks are pretty well rounded and its a simple job to set one up in my existing sump. probably wont see much resuuts from the addititon, but like I said it cant really hurt and can help reduce leftover phos and nitrates that will still be present, even if only at a lower than testable level.
thanks for providing a great set of step by step instructions for people to use to build one, the modifications are pretty much unlimited on how to set it up for various tank/sump styles.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2722843
As for the name, Algae Turf Scrubber ("ATS") is trademarked and probably should not be used
Ya know that a good point. I heard the term Algae Scrubber for decades before the ATS system was developed but you are correct, they trademarked the name.
I hope nobody ever trademarks the term "Reef Tank", it would be a shame to have to call them something else

A similar point was made about ORP on another board, and I still have to ask, is there real direct harm in some less amount of exchange?
Well, yes, there are significant disadvantages to less gas exchange, expecially for limewater users such as yourself. Limewater consumes a lot of CO2 and can actually consume enough to slow down photosynthesis.
However, after reviewing your design I'm beginning to think that your scrubber would probably INCREASE gas exchange. To the point where it would probably more than make up for the loss of a skimmer. I just may set up an experiment to see if my hypothesis is right.
You feed your tank, then you remove (skim) some of the food back out.
I've actually never witnessed my skimmer pull out food. Perhaps I need to set up an experiment on that as well. Until then I prefer to remove DOCs before they can break down whenever possible. I've already experimented a lot with pods and skimmers, skimmers do NOT remove pods, this is a myth.
Like I said before, I'm a believer in algae scrubbers. I'm also a believer in listing all aspects, not just the positive ones. I can not think of any negatives for algae scrubbers but I believe there are negatives with removing your skimmer.
You'll have to excuse me now, I have some experiments to set up.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2720369
Part 2 of 8
........
Disadvantages:
o Pods produced by the turf have to flow through your return pump to get you your tank.
I've experimented extensively with pods & waterpumps. Waterpumps using impellers damage very very few of the larger pods and nearly none of the smaller pods.
In my opinion you can remove this as a disadvantage because pumps really don't have a significant effect on pod populations.

 

[santamonica]

I'm sure the size of the scrubber has alot to do with the overall fuxations in PH, the larger the unit the more you'll be able to see them, I'm not sure if you covered this in one of your precious posts but is your turf scrubber lit 24/7, if so this may be one of the reasons you dont see large or differentiating swings in PH, the turf wont go through the down time releasing Co2 if it is lit 24/7, in fact by continuing to photosynthesize after your DT goes to bed it will actually help stabilize by consuming Co2 when your corals stop.
Well I'm just using the size that's recommended by rule of thumb: One square inch per gallon. And it's lit 18 on, and 6 off, the off being 6am to noon.
I've actually never witnessed my skimmer pull out food.
What about if you dose phyto while you are skimming?
In my opinion you can remove this as a disadvantage because pumps really don't have a significant effect on pod populations.
Good to hear another case of this. My own setup seems to agree. But of course I need to explain the filter aspects to the folks that believe otherwise.

 

[coral keeper]

I add phytoplankton to my tank, I just turn the skimmer off for about 2-3 hours for the tank to feed then I'd turn the skimmer back on.

 

[reefkprz]

question, where do you get the "turf" algae to seed your screen? I have no turf algae.
yes I am starting to make one of my own modifications based on your principals and basic set up. I will take pictures and post them here if you would like.

 

[iyachtuxivm]

Originally Posted by Coral Keeper
http:///forum/post/2723294
I add phytoplankton to my tank, I just turn the skimmer off for about 2-3 hours for the tank to feed then I'd turn the skimmer back on.
your avatar has to go

I hope thats not you

 

[santamonica]

Technically, there are two different things: Seeding, and pre-growing. Seeding is just that... rubbing seeds (spores) of algae into a new screen so it can start off faster. But most folks use the term to mean pre-grown, as in the turf is already fully grown on a screen, and the whole screen is sent to you. Of note is the fact that you can't really "seed" real red/brown turf, because it takes months to develop, and if you really did rub spores of real red/brown turf into a new screen, they would just die. Seeding spores is done with just regular green algae, since a new screen can only start by growing green algae anyway. This is good news, since it means you can seed your own screen with algae from your own tank. You can't "pre grow" your own, however.
You do not "have" to seed a screen, but since you can do it easily with your own green algae, you might as well. Use sandpaper to rough up the surface, and rub the green algae in HARD with your fingers. That's all. You won't see the spores, and you'll swear they all
washed off, but they're there. First visible green growth specs will be in two days. And it will start pulling nutrients in a week. The real red/green stiff astroturf like turf will take months, however.
Pre-grown screens save you these months. When they arrive, you put them in the light and flow, and they start working immediately, and are much much higher power than the green stuff.

 

[santamonica]

Part 1 of 2
Ok here are the results of the 5 gal nano test. First, here is the tank, which has 3 pounds LR, a SSB, along with a purple lobster, a starfish, and a clown:

The tank has been on an office worker's desk (his first tank), with no water changes for about four months. The last change was done only to get nitrate down (a result of overfeeding of course), in order to keep the animals happy. Phosphate was not a concern since there were no corals, and thus there was no phosphate removal system in place.
As you can see, the light and most of the hood were removed, as was the little sponge filter. The remaining part of the hood has a compartment for the sponge filter, which is 2 X 3 inches, and it has a little built in pump to move water across this compartment. I started out by taking some tank-divider material and cutting it to a tight fit into the compartment:

Then I sanded it very rough on the top, and I "seeded" it by taking some green hair algea and rubbing the algae HARD into the sanded side. Then I pushed the screen into the sponge filter compartment:

The screen is only 6 square inches, single sided, and thus not enough for this tank according to the rule of thumb of one square inch per gallon (double sided), or two square inches per gallon (single sided). Thus for this 5 gal tank single-sided I should have 10 square inches instead of 6, but of course for simplicity I just used the compartment size.
Since we had already removed the original tank light, we were going to just use the light for the screen as the new tank light too. So I just took one of the same bulbs that I used in the bucket, a 23 Watt, 5100K compact fluorescents "full-spectrum" (125W output equivalent):

http://www.buylighting.com/23-Watt-R...1r4023-51k.htm
...and set it directly on the plastic hood, which put it only a half inch from the flowing water:

Thankfully these CFL's run very cool, and you can put your hand right on them without burning. Of course if you try this light placement yourself, you'd want to test it carefully so that you don't melt anything, and won't knock the bulb over. I thought that the light might heat up the water, but it does not seem to. The light is on an 18-hour-on timer, and provides the tank itself with much more light than the original hood light did.
Results: Here are the measurements (Salifert) and pics taken over a period of days:
....................N...........P
.
day 0..........*............*...............not measured
day 1........(50)........( .5 )
day 2..........*............*...............not measured
day 3..........*............*...............not measured
day 4..........*............*...............not measured
day 5........(50)........( .5 )
day 6........(25)........( .25 )
day 7........(15)........( .13 ).........screen full
day 8........(15)........(1.0)...........screen full
day 9........(10)........(1.0)...........whole screen cleaned (mistake)
day 10......(10)........(1.0)...........growing back
day 11......(8)..........(1.0)...........growing back more
day 12......(8)..........(1.0)...........half cleaned
day 13......(8)..........( .5 )
day 14......(5)..........( .25 ).........other half cleaned
day 15......(8)..........( .13 )
day 16......(3)..........( .13 ).........other half cleaned; housing cleaned
day 17......( 2.5 ).....( .05 )
day 18......( .5 ).......( .05 )
day 19......( .2 ).......( .05 ).........other half cleaned (not much there)
day 20......(0)..........( .015 ).......green growing back over brown
Day 2:

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5galNanoDay02screen.jpg
Day 3:

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5galNanoDay03screen.jpg
Day 7:

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5galNanoDay07screen.jpg
Continued....

 

[santamonica]

Part 2 of 2
Day 9, before complete cleaning:

Day 9, After complete cleaning (mistake)

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5gal...fterScrape.jpg
Day 12, half cleaned:

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5gal...halfScrape.jpg
Day 16:

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5galNanoDay16screen.jpg
Day 17:

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5galNanoDay17screen.jpg
Day 18:

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5galNanoDay18screen.jpg
Day 19, in tank:

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5gal...19screenIn.jpg
Day 19, removed:

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5gal...nOutBefore.jpg
Day 19, after cleaning top half:

Hi Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/5gal...enOutAfter.jpg
You'll see on day 7 that the screen filled up. However I had never seen it full before, so I did not know what "full" looked like. So I left it to see how full it would get. Day 8 the screen looked the same, but there was a big increase in P, and I surmised that the screen had filled up and some strands of algae were shadowing others, causing the others to detach and flow into the tank and die (not enough light in the tank to survive). So I waited one more day to be sure (day 9), and sure enough the P was still very high.
So on Day 9 I cleaned (mistakenly) the whole screen, whereas I should have only cleaned half. Thus, I had no filtering, and it took a few day to fill in again. By day 14, nitrate and phosphate were at reasonable levels, and I was doing half-screen cleanings properly. By day 18 the nitrate and phosphate were bottoming out and staying constant, and nitrate eventually got to zero at day 20.
So the things learned:
1) A small screen size, even one sided, can do a tremendous job of filtering. (Phosphate from .5 to .015, and Nitrate from 50 to 0, in three weeks).
2) It can do this filtering with a constant flow of water (no pulsing), although a timer on the little pump would be easy to add and try out.
3) It can do this filtering with regular green algae; it has not had time to form true red/brown turf, although it was starting to feel like some was growing.
4) It all can be done in the nano's hood, with a standard light, for free.
Ok, now it's seriously time for you nano folks to try this!

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2724232
Ok, now it's seriously time for you nano folks to try this!
Nano folks?
I thinking of building a rather large one for a 1000 gallon system. The idea is to replace a large Caulerpa patch in my lagoon to (unscientifically) see how much Turf Scrubber is needed to replace a number of square feet of Macroalgae for filtration.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2724366
Nano folks?
I thinking of building a rather large one for a 1000 gallon system. The idea is to replace a large Caulerpa patch in my lagoon to (unscientifically) see how much Turf Scrubber is needed to replace a number of square feet of Macroalgae for filtration.
what sort of set up are you contemplating bang?