Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

renogaw

Active Member
In my sump, i get a lot of spongey nasty algae along the glass. i'm wondering if i'm better off removing the last two (or just the middle) baffle and doing one of these scrubbers. i'm thinking about leaving the 6" baffle because it helps regulate water height and stops the micro bubbles (plus i put my carbon and phosphate bags in there.
how would this work?
here's the sump/refugium:

this is the final chamber:
 

santamonica

Member
Not quite sure of the question. Are you getting algae ON the glass? If so you should also be getting algae in the display.
What are N and P?
 

renogaw

Active Member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/2873645
Not quite sure of the question. Are you getting algae ON the glass? If so you should also be getting algae in the display.
What are N and P?
last i tested (last weekend before water change) nitrates were undetectable. i get this nasty algae in my fuge area, but only the green powdery type algae in the tank. I do though have a turf algae in the display that i'm having issues with, and some type of algae growing in the overflow. i'm thinking my nitrates being undetectable were just cause my algae is using it up fast. havent tested phosphates in a while...will do tomorrow
I guess what i'm asking is should i remove the baffles and put a scrubber in instead to help get rid of my algae issues.
here's a couple pics of the algae in my tank (first few) and the algae that's growing in the sump (last two)




 

renogaw

Active Member
phosphate is testing at zero, but my test kit says it expired 8/08... so i don't know if those results are right. i normally don't feed anything that has phosphates in it though.
 

santamonica

Member
Ok I see. Yes your nuisance algae is consuming the N and P, with help from your phosphate remover. But you see, of course, that algae is better at consuming than the remover is. A scrubber would out-compete all of them, and grow algae on the screen instead of your display and sump.
Looking back at your sump pic, there are many ways to use a scrubber. One is to remove all the baffles except the last small one, so the water will be as low as possible. Then you would do a "pumped" or "overflow" version:


Another is to leave the sump as is, and have an acrylic one built which would set on the sump:

Another is to not put anything in/on the sump at all, and instead make a separate unit and pipe it in:

All work the same; it's just a matter of space/time/money. And for extra power and speed, get a pre-grown screen from IA.
 

santamonica

Member
Since they don't want links, here is a copy...
Part 1 of 2
ALGAE SCRUBBER FAQ 1.0
(12/12/08)
Q: What are algae scrubbers?
A: Scrubbers are devices which use light and water flow to remove the "bad" things out of your aquarium water.
Q: What are they called?
A: They are called Scrubbers, Algae Turf Scrubbers (ATS), Algae Scrubbers, Algae Filters, Turf Scrubbers, and Turf Algae Filters. They are all the same thing.
Q: How big of a scrubber do I need?
A: Start with one square inch of screen, with a light on both sides, for every gallon (U.S.) of water. So a 100 gallon tank would need a screen 10 inches by 10 inches, with a light on both sides.
Q: What if I can't put a light on both sides?
A: Then double the screen size, and double the lights on one side.
Q: What kind of light do I need?
A: Experience has shown that at least a 23 Watt Compact Fluorescent (CFL) floodlight, of "daylight" or "full spectrum" color, works best. One on each side of the screen. And note that 23W is "at least".
Q: How much flow do I need on the screen?
A: 35 gallons per hour (gph) (U.S.) for every inch of width of the screen. So a screen one inch wide would need 35 gph, and a two inch wide screen would need 70 gph, etc.
Q: How do you clean a scrubber screen?
A: Basically, you clean 1/2 of it every week. This allows some filtering to be taking place all the time.
Q: Will a scrubber cause algae to start growing in my tank?
A: No. Actually the opposite; a scrubber will pull algae from your tank, and cause it to grow on the screen instead.
Q: Can I put a scrubber on my nano?
A: Yes, you can make/put a scrubber on any tank. There are two types of nano's: Those with a hatch on the top that let you get to the filter, and those where there is no hatch (like Aquapods) where the whole lid opens up as one unit. Aquapod types are the hardest to add your own scrubber to; however the hatch-on-top types are the easiest.
Q: Will a scrubber harm my corals?
A: No. As a matter of fact, corals like lots of food in the water, and they also like low levels of nitrate and phosphate. That's exactly what scrubbers provide.
Q: Will a scrubber work in freshwater?
A: Absolutely. Same benefits.
Q: I've heard that scrubbers will cause your water to turn yellow.
A: Not if cleaned weekly, in your sink. Yellowing is caused by cleaning in your system (the broken algae drains into your water), or by not cleaning weekly (the underlying algae gets covered and shaded by new algae, and dies).
Q: What exactly does a scrubber do to my water?
A: It takes ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, metals (like copper), and CO2 out of the water. It puts oxygen into the water.
Q: Are scrubbers noisy?
A: Not when built properly. The screen should go into the water slightly, and the water should flow smoothly down the screen with no spraying, splashing or noise. Your pumps should be the only thing you hear.
Q: Do they smell?
A: When running, not at all. When cleaning in your sink, there is an "ocean" smell. Nothing as bad as cleaning a skimmer cup though.
Q: What if there is a power outage? Will my scrubber die?
A: In most cases you will loose your tank before you loose your scrubber. With no flow and no lights shining on the algae, the outer layer of algae hardens and keeps the inside layers wet. Six hours should not be a problem.
Q: I'm currently building my tank. Should I wait to install my scrubber?
A: No. Scrubbers eat nitrate, phosphate and ammonia, and that's just what cycling produces. By starting early (even during cycling), your scrubber will be ready for adding livestock sooner.
 

santamonica

Member
Part 2 of 2
Q: I'm still designing my system. What other filtering devices besides a scrubber should I buy?
A: Since you don't have filters set up yet, why not start with just a scrubber and monitor your nitrates and phosphates weekly as you add livestock? When your scrubber can no longer keep nitrate and phosphate at undetectable levels, then you can buy other filtering devices as needed.
Q: I've heard you have to "pulse" or "surge" the water to get best results.
A: This is not proven yet. Most scrubbers use a constant flow, and have great results.
Q: What type of algae is best to grow?
A: You don't have much choice; algae will grow based on lighting and nutrients, and will even change as your nitrates and phosphates drop. All algae consume nitrate and phosphate, so it really doesn't matter what type algae it is.
Q: Will the flowing water put bubbles into my tank?
A: If the screen is built/adjusted properly so that the water flows smoothly down the screen, and if the screen is in the water at the bottom (so the water does not "drop off the bottom"), then no bubbles should be added.
Q: Can I use LEDs for lighting the screen?
A: LEDs are still being experimented with, as far as using them for algae (which is different from using them for a display.) Thus they are not recommended if you absolutely want results. If, however, results are not as important as "experimenting", then by all means try LEDs, but make sure they are as powerful as possible.
Q: Can I use solar power on the screen?
A: Yes, if you have many days of sun throughout the year. The screen will, in effect, be one-sided, so you'll need twice the size. Might be a good idea to still have a regular secondary or portable scrubber inside, in case of long lasting storms.
Q: How is a scrubber different from a skimmer?
A: Scrubbers remove Inorganic Nitrate, Inorganic Phosphate, ammonia, metals and CO2 from the water. (Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate are what cause nuisance algae to grow on your rocks and glass.) Skimmers remove food from the water. Both scrubbers and skimmers, however, add oxygen to the water.
Q: Can a scrubber "crash"?
A: No. There is no situation in which a scrubber can "fall to pieces", dissolve, disintegrate, or otherwise destroy itself and the tank that it's connected to. The worse than can happen to your tank is that the scrubber light burns out and stays out for 2 or more days, in which case the algae will slowly start dying over the next couple weeks.
Q: Are water changes still needed if I use a scrubber?
A: If the purpose of the water change is to reduce nitrate or phosphate, or to help reduce nuisance algae in the display, then no. If the purpose of the water change is for anything else, then yes.
Q: If scrubbers work so well, why haven't I heard of them before, and why haven't people been building them before now?
A: Because the inventor of the scrubber had a patent on his design, yet he did not sell his scrubbers to the public (and did not allow others to sell them either.) People thought that since his design was the only one that was patented, then it must be the only design that works. But as you can see, it is not the only design that works.
Q: Will scrubbers work with other filter setups, like skimmers, vodka, reactors, denitrators, pads, etc?
A: Scrubbers will works with any device/setup. One exception might be xenia; if you want to keep your xenia, you'll probably need to start feeding much much more after you start using a scrubber.
Q: What's the best configuration for a scrubber?
A: Theoretically, the "best" for a reef tank is to have the scrubber above the display, so that all the pods can drain into the display unharmed. But if the goal is just to remove nitrate, phosphate, and nuisance algae, then it really doesn't matter where you put it.
Q: How does a scrubber compare to a refugium with macros?
A: This is a long one, and is detailed elsewhere.
Q: What kind of pods does a scrubber grow?
A: Supposedly, copepods, amphipods, mini-stars, etc. However there have only been actual reports of copepods.
Q: Are halides too strong for a scrubber screen?
A: They are not too strong, but the results that have been observed on halide scrubbers have not been fantastic. It's currently advisable to not use halides.
Q: How long does it take to get the real "red/brown" turf?
A: Current experience has shown that unless you start with a pre-grown turf screen, that it will never start growing on it's own. All algae is good, however, no matter what color or texture it is. Real red/brown turf just filters the most for a small size, that's all.
Q: Where can I buy a scrubber?
A: Nobody currently makes scrubbers.
Q: Can someone build one for me?
A: PM me for a list of builders.
 

santamonica

Member
Part 1 of 3
Here is an easy DIY for a nano. This one starts with a Marineland Eclipse 6 gallon, which was chosen because of the easy-to-access hatch on the top:




First thing you need to do to the filter box is cut out this section, using a Dremel cut-off tool, or even a soldering iron:



Doesn't need to be a smooth cut, since water will be draining down through the holes anyway.
Now, test fit the filter box on the back wall:
 

santamonica

Member
Part 2 of 3
Looking from the backside, see how the filter box will set on the wall:

use a little bit of scrap plastic to raise this side a bit:

Now, epoxy some plastic sheet (I just cut them out from the hood material) onto the filter box so that it will hook onto the wall; the epoxy will also hold the little plastic scrap in place too:


Mounting done:


Now cut a piece of hard plastic (any color, any thickness) to fit in the filter box. Use sandpaper or a drill or a file to make the surface rough:

Now cut a piece of "Rug Canvas" or "Plastic Canvas" (found at any sewing or craft store, or online) to fit on the backing:
 

santamonica

Member
Part 3 of 3
Rug canvas is preferred because it lets the algae to attach better, but since rug canvas is flimsy, you'll need to epoxy it to the backing. Plastic canvas (pictured) is rigid and can just be set down on the backing, but it does not hold algae as well.
Here is the screen finished. Water should flow off the edges and drain out, but if it collects and gets too deep, cut a little section as shown and it will drain out rapidly:

Attach your light; a halide was chosen so as to get good growth, easy attachment to the tank, and strong lighting for corals:

Here is the screen with a fews days of growth (food was put into the water to rot):

A few more days:

Begin to do your weekly cleanings, 1/2 per week:

Cleaning video:
http://www.radio-media.com/fish/6galCleaning.mpg
If the pump ever stops, turn it over and remove the round part, and check to make sure the little wheel can turn freely:


Pump check video:
http://www.radio-media.com/fish/6galPumpStop.mpg
That's it! Post your nano scrubber pics!
 

santamonica

Member
Succeses of the Week:
small_ranchu on the MFK site: "Here is the progress on my goldfish tank. 90 gallon tank with 3 goldfish + heavy feeding. Nitrate reading at the end of the week is usually around 40 PPM with a lot of brown algae on the wall. After 1 month of installing the Scrubber filter, Nitrate reading is 10 PPM and brown algae is disappearing slowly."
argi on the MD site: "I set up my scrubber on my 54 gallon tank a few weeks after its initial set up (it has been running for around 3 months now). One thing I have noticed on this tank compared to all my past tanks is the lack of algae growing on the glass. In the past I always left a magnet cleaner in the tank because I would have to scrub the brown diatom algae off the glass at least once per week. Now with this current tank I haven't had to clean off the glass nearly as often. While I still clean it, usually weekly to every other week, I can still see in the tank after 2 weeks!!! So far I am very happy with the results."
johnt on the UR site: "after 10 weeks of running a screen I can say it's the best method I've used, it also takes out metals and other nasties, and I've not even reached the turf algae stage yet. In the 10 weeks it's been running I've not run any reactors or the skimmer (I'm saving a small fortune not having to buy phosphate remover). I'm still running the refugium, Chaeto and deep sand bed, all corals are doing exceptionaly well, N&P are remaining low and rocks are looking better by the day."
Elliott on --: "I built one about 5 wks ago and so far it seems to be working well. My cyano has diminished and there is less cleaning to do on the glass."
Mtroboer on the MASA site: "my algae is already visibly starting to disappear after only 1 1/2 weeks! Also added a PC Server fan in front of the screen and dropped my temps from 29.8 avg to 25.8 avg, saved me from buying a energy hungry chiller! First time in little more than a year I got to see results regarding getting rid of nuisance algae as well as dropping my high tempratures!"
Keifer1122 on the RS site: "Aquapod 12 gallon update: Its been couple days short of a month, and still no water change, my N & P have been at zero for 3 weeks now. everything is still growing just daily dosing, daily 2-3 feeding times a day, and weekly scrubbing"
bigtanner on --: "I built this little one for about $65, pump, light, and all plumbing needed. Some people frown on these things and some people praise them. It's about like anything else really. I have had success with mine. Since building it and hooking it up, my tank is basically algae free. I also went from running my magnet daily to only running it every three to four days. [...] I never have any bad algae in my tank, my water is always crystal clear, and since adding it, I run my magnet a lot less than I used to.
corinna on the AC site: "I started out as a sceptic, but after spending a fortune on phosphate absorbers, carbon, sponges, water changes etc, Im convinced. Two months in, ive not done a water change or cleaned the glass, just to see what happened. Zooanthids are reproducing, seahorses are fat and active, values are reading zeroes. Scallops are happy. Plus I feed a lot."
 

santamonica

Member
Well after three months of testing color temps, I've determined that 3000K out performs 6500K. It's not a huge difference, but enough to notice. At first they are about equal, but as the green hair gets over an inch thick, the 3000K continues getting thicker until it hits the acrylic wall (at 1.5"), whereas the 6500 stalls and rarely grows enough to reach the wall. So I'm ordering all T5HO 3000K replacement bulbs.
 

santamonica

Member
.
The Santa Monica Light-Screen
After much thought about design (but no ability to build), here is my version of a G3 scrubber:

A light-screen is a scrubber where the screen IS the light, and the light IS the screen. This changes the game when it come to scrubber performance in a small size. Unfortunately, you can't DIY these, unless you happen to be both a plastics engineer and an electronics engineer. However I thought that if I posted these, they may spark some ideas for regular scrubbers, or, someone may work for a manufacturer who can actually build them. I'll be the first to buy one.
As a reminder, G1 scrubbers are DIY sumps/buckets, while G2 scrubbers are enclosed acrylic boxes. G3 scrubbers have luminescent screens, whether they be LEDs, fiber optics, or lasers. My design is LEDs; so compared to buckets or acrylics, these plastic-covered LED light screens:
o Are ultra small/thin.
o Have no algae die-off (see drawing below).
o Are practically unbreakable.
o Are electrically safe (12 volts or less).
o Can be made as small as desired for nano's.
o Can easily be built into the hood of a nano.
o Are double-sided with almost no increase in size.
Disadvantages:
o They will be expensive (equivalent to good skimmers).
o They are impossible to DIY

Here is my version of a nano scrubber:

Same concept, just smaller, and replaces the skimmer, mechanical filter, and other filtering "devices" in pre-fab nano's like Aquapods, Red Sea Max's, etc. Would actually make nano's less expensive, better filtered, more compact, and more reliable.
.
.
 

santamonica

Member
Update: CFL Bulb Lifetime
One of the CFL bucket scrubbers that I was testing began growing less and less algae, starting when it was about three months old. After five months, most growth had stopped. I did not think it could be the CFL bulbs because they looked fine, and they are supposed to last for years. But apparently this does not apply to algae growth, because after replacing the bulbs with new ones, growth immediately started again. These bulbs are cheap, so maybe a three-month replacement schedule should be followed.
 

santamonica

Member
Several folks commented that they liked the hand-built nano-scrubber that Nitschke65 on the SWF site built for his Aquapod-type tank:




It looks bought-off-the-shelf. And several folks have asked how to put a scrubber on their own nano's, without resorting to building an external one. Problem is, of course, that Aquapod-type nano's are the most difficult to fit things into. So until someone manufactures some type of nano-scrubber like Nitschke65 built (G3 or otherwise), Nitschke has said that's he'll make custom scrubbers for other folk's nano's:
"I won't be able to get to work on any of them until mid January, but it's fine with me if you'd like to recommend me. My wife and I are gettting to leave on our 10th anniversary trip to London, so things around here have been pretty hectic. I'll be happy to make the trays and screens, and leave people to come up with their own lighting." He is in Wisconsin, USA.
You can contact him here on SWF. I guess this will be his present to everyone :)
 

santamonica

Member
Update Of The Day: Cleanings/Scrapings
Cleanings are when you take the screen to the sink and run tap water over it as you use your fingers (not fingernails) to remove the loose stuff and wash it off. It is done everyweek, no matter what, even if you think your screen needs to "grow more first". On brand new screens, this stuff is usually a light brown slime, but it can be green slime, green hair, or even black tar-looking stuff. It's important, especially on the first cleaning, to leave some algae on the screen so it can grow back easily. It's also important to only clean ONE side per week (or one-half, if it's a one-sided screen). Cleaning it under running tap water kills the pods that will start to eat the algae (don't worry, there will be thousands more the next day).
Scrapings are sometimes needed later on, after your screen has grown a few months. You'll know if scrapings are needed: You'll try using your fingers, or even fingernails, but nothing will come off. Scraping is only needed every month or so, and of course on ONE side only (or one-half, if it's a one-sided screen). I use a razor blade to scrape, but any straight sharp metal object will work. Go back and forth with the scraper until the algae is removed all the way down to the screen. You shouldn't have to worry about leaving algae on the screen; this type of algae is tough enough that there will surely be some left. You may never need to scrape, however, which is fine. But even if you do need to scrape monthly, you'll still need to clean weekly.
Here is a video showing a cleaning and a scraping:
YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypgNfJV6gBo#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9vlUorbooo#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voo4mBWWuuQ#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2msQ4Nw0pYc#
 

santamonica

Member
Last Results of 2008:
dave3441 on the UR site: "an update for you, been running scrubber since day 1, 19th nov 08 [7 weeks] and tank cycled very quickly 10 days!, although i did have some seeded tonga rock which i kept live bout 15 kgs, the rest was out of water for 36 hours so would have died off. started adding fish at 5 days just 3 chromis to get things fired up then added more fish and corals at 3 weeks still no sign of any additional spikes. its been about 6 weeks now and i have had the very faintest of blooms, just a dusting on glass. cant believe how good this cycle has been compared with first tank set up in 2002. scrubber has been cleaned weekly, to be honest i am cleaning both sides every week as it gets so clogged up :). starting to see some more stable green algee now, and this does not come off like the brown/red/black slime does. i just use a george forman plastic spatula and run it down both sides of screen. i would say i get about 1/2 normal size tea cup off screen each time. i gotta say i think this is a very good system, as the algee is definatly growing on the scrubber rather than all over the tank. i have never seen a new tank without the dreaded algee bloom occuring before. i must add i am skimming, although just with a small mc500 deltec which needs emptying approx every 3 days or so. just did battery of tests today approx 7 weeks running now: sal 1.024, temp 27.5, phosphate absolutly zero crystal clear reading not even hint of blue."
 
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