Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

posiden

Active Member
Maybe you can explane the one thing that has me stummped?
The whole goal here (within our little reefs) is to establish a blance within the system. So can one find a balance that would not require them to run the lighting for 16hrs or have a usual ammount that is fed to the system that would make everything balance. Maybe only run half the size screen and feed less? It just seems that this is a great thing and here we go taking it to the extreme. We put this great filter on and then bomb the system with food to keep it going.
With the turff or HA being such an efficent filter and adding such a larg ammount of food to the system, I can only imagine what the real nutrient level is in our tanks to make the scrubber grow like crazy. You know the levels we can't test for cause it is being taken up by the alage. If it is growing then there has to be nutrients present.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
OK,
Im on board!! Im building a scrubber for my new 125!
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=349033
I got some questions:
1. I have a grow light that is a compact florescent light system. 24 inches. Its got 2 full spectrum bulbs. 5850k.
If I ran this verticle down the length of my screen do you think it would work better than the standard lights people are using?

Its a low power light yes...but its meant for growing plants indoors.
2. Does this safely replace a skimmer? Or are people still on the fence?
3. Can I over stock my tank if I got a larger than necessary screen going?
4. What if I do large screen and Skimmer?
5. i forgot...but ill ask it later im sure.
 

spanko

Active Member
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/2945832
Maybe you can explane the one thing that has me stummped?
The whole goal here (within our little reefs) is to establish a blance within the system. So can one find a balance that would not require them to run the lighting for 16hrs or have a usual ammount that is fed to the system that would make everything balance. Maybe only run half the size screen and feed less? It just seems that this is a great thing and here we go taking it to the extreme. We put this great filter on and then bomb the system with food to keep it going.
With the turff or HA being such an efficent filter and adding such a larg ammount of food to the system, I can only imagine what the real nutrient level is in our tanks to make the scrubber grow like crazy. You know the levels we can't test for cause it is being taken up by the alage. If it is growing then there has to be nutrients present.
IMO Posiden my goal for a low nutrient system is to be able to feed more, especially as it relates to the coral and their growth. The fish, not so much but whatever.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
I remember my 5th question....
Can I pretty much keep my skimmer off? this system takes care of what a skimmer does if I understand correctly. Or are there other benefits a skimmer has and this system doesn't?
I also question skimmers and pods....that's a bad combo right?
 

nitschke65

Member
Originally Posted by King_Neptune
http:///forum/post/2945915
OK,
Im on board!! Im building a scrubber for my new 125!
1. I have a grow light that is a compact florescent light system. 24 inches. Its got 2 full spectrum bulbs. 5850k.
If I ran this verticle down the length of my screen do you think it would work better than the standard lights people are using? I use a single cf grow bulb on my scrubber. I think your light will work, as long as you can get it close enough to your screen, without getting it wet. BTW, that is a standard flourescent fixture. Compact flourescent bulbs are the ones with the smaller diameter tubes and either scr3w or plug in.

Its a low power light yes...but its meant for growing plants indoors.
2. Does this safely replace a skimmer? Or are people still on the fence?
People are still on the fence, but I removed my skimmer a few weeks ago, and everything looks great!
3. Can I over stock my tank if I got a larger than necessary screen going?
Overstocking is never a good idea, no matter what your filtration set up is.
4. What if I do large screen and Skimmer?
See above.
5. i forgot...but ill ask it later im sure.

Good luck with the build. Post lots of pics and I'll try to make suggestions. Mine is working awesome!
 

sly

Active Member
In regards to removing the skimmer... I inadvertently removed my skimmer when it started to overflow due to salt creep problems. I didn't plan to turn off the skimmer, ever (it's a Reef Octopus 150... REALLY good skimmer). I put off working on it and then before I knew it, several weeks had past. I checked my tank levels and that's when I noticed my nitrate had dropped finally. I've been running a scrubber since last September and only until I turned off the skimmer did my nitrate level drop. I think it's more than a coincidence... I'm going to leave my skimmer off for awhile and maybe run it on a timer occasionally, but for now, I'm leaning toward believing that skimmers actually hurt a scrubber's performance.
 

sly

Active Member
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/2945329
Sly, Do you think this is why you get such good growth, or do you think it is the scrubber?
I'm not sure really... It could be a combination of things. I have a lot of lighting. I found that I got better growth out of the soft white bulbs than the cool or sunlight bulbs. Lower the kelvin the better...
I also use a surge bucket. I don't think too many people use a surge device on their scrubbers but I do and that may be the difference.
I also don't clean the scrubber screen very well. At first I used to really scrub it clean and remove most of the algae with a toothbrush, but now I just pick off what I can with my hands and leave some behind. It grows back MUCH faster if you don't over clean it.
I use a 24/7 light schedule. I had planned to buy a timer for it but I am really reluctant to since I am getting such good growth. I really haven't experimented with it too much since it seems to be working so well. Who knows? Maybe if I changed my lighting schedule or eliminated the surge things might get even better, but I'm reluctant to change anything considering that I get probably a pound or more of algae a week.
 

posiden

Active Member
Originally Posted by Sly
http:///forum/post/2946073
I'm not sure really... It could be a combination of things. I have a lot of lighting. I found that I got better growth out of the soft white bulbs than the cool or sunlight bulbs. Lower the kelvin the better...
I also use a surge bucket. I don't think too many people use a surge device on their scrubbers but I do and that may be the difference.
I also don't clean the scrubber screen very well. At first I used to really scrub it clean and remove most of the algae with a toothbrush, but now I just pick off what I can with my hands and leave some behind. It grows back MUCH faster if you don't over clean it.
I use a 24/7 light schedule. I had planned to buy a timer for it but I am really reluctant to since I am getting such good growth. I really haven't experimented with it too much since it seems to be working so well. Who knows? Maybe if I changed my lighting schedule or eliminated the surge things might get even better, but I'm reluctant to change anything considering that I get probably a pound or more of algae a week.

Yea, I asked that question last night on the scrubber site, about me cleaning my scrubber with a tooth brush. I think it has been stunned because I was removing to much. I also got the slimy browns at first and I wanted to make sure I got it all off there for the good algae to grow. oops. I think it is on the right track now.
Do you think I should clean it today? I was going to as it is stated to clean it every week wether you think it needs to be or not. I have posted a pic of it at the top of this page. The pic was last night.
 

posiden

Active Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2945956
IMO Posiden my goal for a low nutrient system is to be able to feed more, especially as it relates to the coral and their growth. The fish, not so much but whatever.
Now that is where I am getting confuszzid. Isn't the point of the scrubber to leave behind food for the corals?
 

posiden

Active Member
Originally Posted by King_Neptune
http:///forum/post/2945966
I remember my 5th question....
Can I pretty much keep my skimmer off? this system takes care of what a skimmer does if I understand correctly. Or are there other benefits a skimmer has and this system doesn't?
I also question skimmers and pods....that's a bad combo right?
I pulled my skimmer a long time ago. Well before I built the scrubber. I have seen way to many tanks that are pristeen and don't run skimmers. I am really hoping this scrubber works out for me cause it is silent, easy to take care of, and even tho I am going through a learning curve on it, it is still doing its job. I have a good little problem with the HA in my tank and it is starting to show signs of weaking. That is with this scrubber not even running full steam.
On your light question I don't think you will have the area you need. What is the width of the fixture? 24x?
 

sly

Active Member
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/2946226
I was going to as it is stated to clean it every week wether you think it needs to be or not. I have posted a pic of it at the top of this page. The pic was last night.
If all you are growing is brown stuff right now then I would clean it as soon as it covers the entire screen. A few cleanings and then you should start growing dark green healthy looking algae. It took me quite awhile before I started getting the green stuff...
 

posiden

Active Member
Scroll up in this page. You will see my pannel (Scrubber) as it looks right now. I took the pic last night.
Do you think I should run my lights 24/7 untill the HA in the display really starts to dissaperar? Really as in about half gone.
 

santamonica

Member
With the turff or HA being such an efficent filter and adding such a larg ammount of food to the system, I can only imagine what the real nutrient level is in our tanks to make the scrubber grow like crazy.
Considering food levels in our tanks, you'll be surprised to learn that the most well-fed tanks in the world, including mine with its new continuous feeder, have nowhere near the amount of food ("nutrition") floating in the water as a real reef does. We can only try more and better ways of putting more and more food into the water, in order to try to get to natural levels. The limitation, up until recently, was the excess Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate ("nutrients") that built up. These have been dealt with with mechanical filters (skimmers, floss, socks) which remove the food before it breaks down into "nutrients", but then you are back to not having enough food. Scrubbers, however, only remove the Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate ("nutrients"), but leave all the food ("nutrition") in the water. This gets us much closer to to natural food levels, but still falls short (just try to keep some NPS, and you'll see). So current scrubbers are like the beginning of the automobile; much better than a horse, but with much improvement and experimentation needed in it's ability to remove even more Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate.
Its a low power light yes...but its meant for growing plants indoors.
If I ran this verticle down the length of my screen do you think it would work better than the standard lights people are using?
Totally depends upon the wattage, and if you shape the screen so that it follows the shape of the light. The light needs to be at least 23W on each side of the screen (mine has 48W on each side). Truthfully, I'd get more powerful T5HO ones.
Does this safely replace a skimmer? Or are people still on the fence?
Most people are totally for, or totally against, replacing the skimmer. Buts skimmers and scrubbers don't do the same thing, so ones does not "replace" the other. Skimmers remove food, scrubbers don't. So if you need to remove food, like in a FO or FOWLR predetor tank where the fish have no need for food particles, then you want a skimmer. But if you are trying to keep food particles in the water, and remove Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate instead, then you want a scrubber.
Can I over stock my tank if I got a larger than necessary screen going?
Every single aquarium in the world is "overstocked" already, compared to the ocean. So instead, it's more of a question of "can I have more livestock, without nutrient problems, if I have a more *powerful* scrubber?". And the answer is yes. But it must be more powerful, not just larger. A larger screen, without more light, does no good. The little plant-grow light you posted is certainly not part of a "powerful" scrubber. 100W of plant-grow or 2700K on EACH side of of the screen, would be a starting point. And for your 125, a large screen would be 250 square inches. 200W on each side, with lots of flow, would be "powerful".
I also question skimmers and pods....that's a bad combo right?
Correct. When the skimmer comes on, the pods go goodbye.
I use a 24/7 light schedule. I had planned to buy a timer for it but I am really reluctant to since I am getting such good growth.
After thinking of your situation, I've realized even more, exactly what's going on. Yes you maybe getting great growth, but remember your nutrients are not zero. What's happening is that the nutrients are so high that new algae grows quickly on the outer layers, but the inner layers die and go back into the water (because of the long time between cleanings). So normally, you'd see non-growth areas near the bulbs if you run them 24 hours, but with yours, it's never the same algae on the outer layers. Instead, the outer layers are always new, and thus they have not had time to become "burned out" with 24 hour lighting. So the outer layers are growing and removing nutrients, and the inner layers are dying and putting back nutrients. Kinda robbing Peter to pay Paul. The way it should work, is that algae near a 24 hour bulb starts growing less, since all algae needs a rest. Remember, the goal is zero Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate. The goal is not how much you can grow. If you go to cleaning 2X per week, and put the light on 18 hours, you should get your nutrients to zero in a few weeks. As nutirents come down, the screen will fill up slower, and maybe later you can go to weekly cleanings. But if algae is growing so fast that it does not burn from 24 hour lighting, then it needs to be cleaned more often.
 

posiden

Active Member
SantaMonica;2946313 said:
Considering food levels in our tanks, you'll be surprised to learn that the most well-fed tanks in the world, including mine with its new continuous feeder, have nowhere near the amount of food ("nutrition") floating in the water as a real reef does. We can only try more and better ways of putting more and more food into the water, in order to try to get to natural levels. The limitation, up until recently, was the excess Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate ("nutrients") that built up. These have been dealt with with mechanical filters (skimmers, floss, socks) which remove the food before it breaks down into "nutrients", but then you are back to not having enough food. Scrubbers, however, only remove the Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate ("nutrients"), but leave all the food ("nutrition") in the water. This gets us much closer to to natural food levels, but still falls short (just try to keep some NPS, and you'll see). So current scrubbers are like the beginning of the automobile; much better than a horse, but with much improvement and experimentation needed in it's ability to remove even more Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate.
Okay, now I see the light.
 

posiden

Active Member
Well I cleaned my scrubber today.
I am hoping that by leaving behind the ammount I did, it will start to compete with the HA in the display.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/2946248
I pulled my skimmer a long time ago. Well before I built the scrubber. I have seen way to many tanks that are pristeen and don't run skimmers. I am really hoping this scrubber works out for me cause it is silent, easy to take care of, and even tho I am going through a learning curve on it, it is still doing its job. I have a good little problem with the HA in my tank and it is starting to show signs of weaking. That is with this scrubber not even running full steam.
On your light question I don't think you will have the area you need. What is the width of the fixture? 24x?

24x6.
Also I should note that I'm doing a reef tank, so yes. I want to keep food in it. If a skimmer is only good for keeping out N and P...then I think I will do a skimmerles system to start with. Ill also beef up the screen size to overkill...and do more lights as well.
This will be interesting to see if it works. Ill start small and gradually increase it from there.
If everything keeps stable then I don't see any need to waste time, energy, and money on a skimmer...ill just add more LR to the skimmer section of my sump instead of a skimmer.
 

drakken

Member
Scrubber V2.2 update
Up time - one week 3 days
New light bulbs plus second light added
Question: When do I clean it first?

 

posiden

Active Member
Originally Posted by King_Neptune
http:///forum/post/2947123
24x6.
Also I should note that I'm doing a reef tank, so yes. I want to keep food in it. If a skimmer is only good for keeping out N and P...then I think I will do a skimmerles system to start with. Ill also beef up the screen size to overkill...and do more lights as well.
This will be interesting to see if it works. Ill start small and gradually increase it from there.
If everything keeps stable then I don't see any need to waste time, energy, and money on a skimmer...ill just add more LR to the skimmer section of my sump instead of a skimmer.
Are you going to build a scrubber?? If so you can really re think your sup/fug.
Also from what I understand skimmers don't remove N and P.
 
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