Most of you were wrong. Do you have the class to admit it?

[crimzy]

A few years ago, when the economic/banking/mortgage crisis had reached its pinnacle, there were a couple of threads on here about the various bailouts. One of them in particular addressed the auto companies request for federal assistance. The tone was almost unanimous in that everyone seemed to think the loans were a terrible idea. If I recall correctly, the threads involving the bank bailouts came with mixed reviews, with the most staunch conservatives basically supporting it.
Now, a couple of years later, GM and Chrysler have made huge comebacks and will have the loans paid back this month, (ahead of schedule). Meanwhile, the banks' bailout has cost in excess of $108 BILLION that has not and presumably will not be repaid. Let's not forget that the bank bailout did not reopen the lines of financing to boost the economy (as it was intended to). Instead, it simply provided huge financial windfalls for the corrupt CEO's that drove their banks into dire financial straits.
So people... who's man enough to admit they were wrong?

 

[reefraff]

LOL! Let's see, GM repaid their loan with another government loan and everyone bragged on that till they were busted. But you got to remember only part of the money given to the UAW, I mean auto companies were loans. Much of that money was in exchange for stock which the government will be selling this summer at a loss. What a great deal... They should have let both companies go through regular bankruptcy.

 

[crimzy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386119
LOL! Let's see, GM repaid their loan with another government loan and everyone bragged on that till they were busted. But you got to remember only part of the money given to the UAW, I mean auto companies were loans. Much of that money was in exchange for stock which the government will be selling this summer at a loss. What a great deal... They should have let both companies go through regular bankruptcy.
The repayment of the $6.7 billion was not from another loan, but from the company's assets. While you are correct, however, that the government purchased significant stock and is a large shareholder in the company. Let's not forget that this kept thousands of middle class people working and the company is now profitable again.
I notice you didn't mention Chrysler... and where is the payback from the bank execs? Go try to get a small business loan from your local bank and tell me how that bailout boosted the economy...

 

[spanko]

None should have gotten a bailout, banks or car companies, mismanagement is part of the cycle and they should have had to work their way through bankruptcy. They all would have been better companies for it.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386121
The repayment of the $6.7 billion was not from another loan, but from the company's assets. While you are correct, however, that the government purchased significant stock and is a large shareholder in the company. Let's not forget that this kept thousands of middle class people working and the company is now profitable again.
I notice you didn't mention Chrysler... and where is the payback from the bank execs? Go try to get a small business loan from your local bank and tell me how that bailout boosted the economy...
Hey, I didn't like any of the bailouts. And as a matter of fact, no the loan repayment was not from company assets, it was other TARP money GM had received. At the time of the repayment GM was still in the red. Even if they had used their own profits that was 6.7 of 52 billion they got. The "New GM" is also being allowed to carryover losses from the "old GM" to avoid taxes once they do become profitable, another gift.
With Chrysler they have actually paid the government back but used another loan and a bond sale to do so. We'll see if they are still around in a few years. There is about 2 billion associated with the Chrysler bailout the government doesn't expect to get back. As far as the jobs they would still be there if the companies had gone through Bankruptcy. They just might not have been union jobs. Might have really sucked for Ford. Then they would be competing against the koreans, Germans and Japanese from an disadvantage.

 

[jerth6932]

A few years ago, when the economic/banking/mortgage crisis had reached its pinnacle, there were a couple of threads on here about the various bailouts. One of them in particular addressed the auto companies request for federal assistance. The tone was almost unanimous in that everyone seemed to think the loans were a terrible idea. If I recall correctly, the threads involving the bank bailouts came with mixed reviews, with the most staunch conservatives basically supporting it.

Now, a couple of years later, GM and Chrysler have made huge comebacks and will have the loans paid back this month, (ahead of schedule). Meanwhile, the banks' bailout has cost in excess of $108 BILLION that has not and presumably will not be repaid. Let's not forget that the bank bailout did not reopen the lines of financing to boost the economy (as it was intended to). Instead, it simply provided huge financial windfalls for the corrupt CEO's that drove their banks into dire financial straits.

So people... who's man enough to admit they were wrong?
Geez.... hold a grudge much.... its been long enough to not worry about it. On that news I bought a FORD. :rotfl:

 

[darthtang aw]

So we spent how much to save a few thousand jobs?

 

[siptang]

I wasn't here for that long but it seems little insignificant.
Whether we agree on it or not there isn't a thing that we can do about it. Opinions change with time and what may seem right at the time can turn out wrong later, doesn't necessarily mean that they have to acknowledge anything. I for one, hated the idea of bailout and thought that money should go into the public so that new businesses will rise into super power and such. Mismanagement is the reason why we are in this mess in first place and I think it's bull crap that government gave them more of our tax money to blow...
darthtang: +1 : )

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386448
So we spent how much to save a few thousand jobs?
Guess it depends on which side of the fence you're on. If you were one of those individuals that was heading for "overpass living", I imagine you didn't care where the money came from, as long as it kept a paycheck coming in.
How much have we spent, and continue to spend, on a war that's never given us one dime back in return? People seem to think there's this "price for freedom", but whose freedom are we paying for? We haven't had anything as devastating as 9/11, but there's been plenty of "shots over our bow" since that travesty occurred. Some of this data they collected from the Bin Laden raid has already uncovered several potential attacks Al-Qaeda was planning. I personally don't see what this "War on Terror" has done for our safety. I guess if even one life can be saved by our attempts to thwart terror is worth it, but over $1 Trillon?

 

[stdreb27]

I'm not sure you could really call the auto industry as a poster child to successful Keynesian economics. This whole idea that somehow the auto industry going into bankruptcy would shut down the auto-industry is inaccurate. So is the idea that even if Chevy or Chrysler actually shut down, that another company wouldn't rise up to take it's place.

 

[crimzy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386480
Guess it depends on which side of the fence you're on. If you were one of those individuals that was heading for "overpass living", I imagine you didn't care where the money came from, as long as it kept a paycheck coming in.
How much have we spent, and continue to spend, on a war that's never given us one dime back in return? People seem to think there's this "price for freedom", but whose freedom are we paying for? We haven't had anything as devastating as 9/11, but there's been plenty of "shots over our bow" since that travesty occurred. Some of this data they collected from the Bin Laden raid has already uncovered several potential attacks Al-Qaeda was planning. I personally don't see what this "War on Terror" has done for our safety. I guess if even one life can be saved by our attempts to thwart terror is worth it, but over $1 Trillon?
I couldn't agree more...
How can people justify spending trillions to "free" other countries, yet be so callous when it comes to taking care of our own working class???

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386480
Guess it depends on which side of the fence you're on. If you were one of those individuals that was heading for "overpass living", I imagine you didn't care where the money came from, as long as it kept a paycheck coming in.
How much have we spent, and continue to spend, on a war that's never given us one dime back in return? People seem to think there's this "price for freedom", but whose freedom are we paying for? We haven't had anything as devastating as 9/11, but there's been plenty of "shots over our bow" since that travesty occurred. Some of this data they collected from the Bin Laden raid has already uncovered several potential attacks Al-Qaeda was planning. I personally don't see what this "War on Terror" has done for our safety. I guess if even one life can be saved by our attempts to thwart terror is worth it, but over $1 Trillon?
It's a little easier to make the case that Iraq was a waste of money because the main reason we invaded was the WMD's which it turns out were only a slight fraction of what was expected to be there. Afghanistan was a serious threat we had to deal with. Iraq was a potential threat.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386570
I couldn't agree more...
How can people justify spending trillions to "free" other countries, yet be so callous when it comes to taking care of our own working class???
At what cost? Even assuming all those jobs would have been lost which is highly doubtful we will be paying the tab for those jobs for years even under the most rosey assumptions of repayment.

 

[darthtang aw]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386570
I couldn't agree more...
How can people justify spending trillions to "free" other countries, yet be so callous when it comes to taking care of our own working class???
I wouldn't be callous if the groundskeeper for these auto makers wasnt making over 65,000 a year. A couple even make 6 figures. Dude, they mow lawns...............And my tax dollars went to ensure they could continue mowing lawns.I don't begrudge anyone from wanting to make as much money as possible. But use some common sense.....one day your over inflated wage may cause the company to go bankrupt, don't whine to me when that happens because you were greedy and just "wanted to gets mine". Well you got it, then you lost it. That is life.
The average employee makes 50-70 dollars an hour.....seriously? And I am paying for that?
How much did 9/11 cost this country in lives and monetary loss after afterwards....compare that to the wars................
Darth (and you wonder why they were folding) Tang

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386590
I wouldn't be callous if the groundskeeper for these auto makers wasnt making over 65,000 a year. A couple even make 6 figures. Dude, they mow lawns...............And my tax dollars went to ensure they could continue mowing lawns.I don't begrudge anyone from wanting to make as much money as possible. But use some common sense.....one day your over inflated wage may cause the company to go bankrupt, don't whine to me when that happens because you were greedy and just "wanted to gets mine". Well you got it, then you lost it. That is life.
The average employee makes 50-70 dollars an hour.....seriously? And I am paying for that?
How much did 9/11 cost this country in lives and monetary loss after afterwards....compare that to the wars................
Darth (and you wonder why they were folding) Tang
Which auto maker would that be? I worked for the top 2 largest lansdcape companies in the state of Michigan for over 8 years in the past. I've been a part maintaning all of the big 3's world headquarters and even more of their production and administrative facilities around the greater metro detroit area than I care to remember and not one of them ever had in house grounds keepers. None of the companies that I worked for had crews with guys maintining those properties for that kind of money. If they did than I obviously was working for the wrong team.

 

[darthtang aw]

Which auto maker would that be?  I worked for the top 2 largest lansdcape companies in the state of Michigan for over 8 years in the past.  I've been a part maintaning all of the big 3's world headquarters and even more of their production and administrative facilities around the greater metro detroit area than I care to remember and not one of them ever had in house grounds keepers.  None of the companies that I worked for had crews with guys maintining those properties for that kind of money.  If they did than I obviously was working for the wrong team.
 
How long ago was that?
My figures include benefits paid by the companies.

 

[stdreb27]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crimzy http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386570
I couldn't agree more...
How can people justify spending trillions to "free" other countries, yet be so callous when it comes to taking care of our own working class???
We do that domestically. 33% of the domestic budget go toward social programs. I think this argument is misguided.
But I think this takes the wrong approach to the problem with the government handout. The problem is we spent billions of dollars to bail out these companies, but what did we gain? You might say, oh jobs, etc, but get real those jobs aren't going anywhere, (maybe to a non-union state). But like I pointed out earlier, these companies would just be reorganized not shuttered...

 

[reefraff]

It's insane to suggest Chrysler and GM wouldn't have been snatched up in Bankruptcy. Like I said upthread, lets see how long they survive, they still have the high overhead and nothing has really changed. People are getting fed up to the point another bailout could result in a public revolt that would make the 60's war protests look like a snooze fest.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386603
How long ago was that?
My figures include benefits paid by the companies.
Oh, this was back in 95-03. I just don't know of any of those companies that maintained their own properties back then. Perhaps things have changed since then if you're seeing info that states they're paying groundskeepers that kind of money. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Back when I graduated high school the big thing was everybody wanted to go to work for one of the Big 3. Heck, you could start out working on an assembly line with no relevant experience for $18.50 an hour, if you could get in. They used to give family members preference for job considerations over anybody else first back then. And even then it wasn't easy to get it.
My father has worked for Ford for the past 20 years. He started there as an electronics specialist working out in their testing labs at their proving ground property in Dearborn. He's one of the heads in his department now but I don't think he's making a 6 figure salary. Close, maybe, but not quite 6. After benefits though then yeah he probably is. For what he does there though, he deserves it. He may be one of the lucky ones to skate by and make it to his full retirement. But he's been in fear for his job several times over the last decade. Not so much lately, fortunately. The last time I really talked to him about it he pretty much told me that there are very few actual ford employees left anymore. Most work is now done by outside contractors. I suppose that's in an effort to try and get away from paying employees all of those great benefits.
Now GM, some of those union workers are/were just ridiculous. I can recal at least three strikes where those folks would refused to go to work because they were crying for more pay to pretty much sit around on their asses all day and collect a nice pay check for it. But that wasn't enough for them. And then guys like me would show up to their center point headquarters to do some work and those yahoos would block the driveways and beat on our trucks because they didn't want us to come in and do our jobs. And I'm sitting there like, are you kidding me? I'll take your job and benefits any day and you could have mine. Jack asses, go back to work and quite your whining!!! Be glad you have a job.

 

[rslinger]

I saw on the news today that Fiat bought all the governments shares of Chrysler.and not for a loss the government turned a profit......