Most of you were wrong. Do you have the class to admit it?

reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Good friend of my wife's father was a GM guy, head of the brake division and he made crazy money. New car every other year and all that fun stuff but that's been better than 20 years ago back in the hay day for Detroit.
I saw an interview when the bailouts were being created with a former supervisor from Ford I think it was. She was saying it isn't so much the pay but the stupid rules that are causing the problem. She told about one employee who wanted to take 2 weeks off to go fishing, She turned down the request for some reason so the guy comes into work, clocks in and leaves. He tells his co workers he's going to be at the bar down the street. The supervisor checks and sure enough the guy is there having a beer. She writes the guy up and he thanks her. Turns out the guy gets suspended for a month, WITH PAY in accordance with the union contract. WTH is up with that?
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it#post_3386613
It's insane to suggest Chrysler and GM wouldn't have been snatched up in Bankruptcy. Like I said upthread, lets see how long they survive, they still have the high overhead and nothing has really changed. People are getting fed up to the point another bailout could result in a public revolt that would make the 60's war protests look like a snooze fest.
People said that about Pontiac and Oldsmobile. Look where they're at...
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Fiat already owns a controlling interest in Chrysler and has been running the company since the bailout.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
Being a Chrysler guy, I keep pretty good tabs on the company. If FIAT is allowed to buy the 6% from the government (it isn't a done deal according to Motor Trend), they will have 52% of Chrysler stock and a controlling interest. The Messiah(better?) fired all Chrysler execs and had all management replaced with FIAT management, but they have not owned a majority share until now. The worst part is FIAT was given 40% just for "engineering sharing". So FIAT, if allowed, will get the majority of an American company by only buying 12%. Thanks Messiah.
 
kjr_trig

kjr_trig

Active Member
Wow, almost like the good old days...The "liberal lawyer" losing another in a line of so many arguments with Reefraff, Darth and Stdreb, just like the old days.
It was such a joke when GM ran those ads last year say they "paid back" the government loans to the U.S. and Canada. GM received $52 billion from the U.S. government, but only $6.7 billion of this amount was considered a loan. I forget, what was the rest of that money considered?
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
Is what it is... I didn't think the bailouts are necessarily a bad thing back then, and still see it now as a positive. It's never been a fair fight to start with. Foreign brands get discounts to move their manufacturing plants Stateside, that 'domestic' companies don't get. Annual reward payouts the Japanese companies receive from Japanese government, and that's the tip of the iceberg.... The bailouts just more so just leveled the playing field.
In the end, my bottom-line is that the consumer is the real winner here, and that what matters most. Neither GM or Chrysler has squandered the money, and both have reinvented themselves, and brought terrific products to market. If GM was still turning out piss-poor products like Pontiac Grand Ams, or Chrysler, Dodge Neons, I could easily see calling the bailouts a bust. But they aren't. GM has brought out lots of great new cars as well as trimming a lot of fat, and Chrysler, even more so, with every model being improved/significantly updated. Of course GM or Chrysler would have been snatched up in bankrupty. But would they have had the freedom to do what they need to do, being now owned by a rival? I don't think so....
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
I supposse a person could call building plants here to avoid tarriffs is a tax break......but that is sort of a stretch.
The union pension plans from the big three add an average of 1700 to the ticket price......
Crimzy isn't so bad, just misguided.
Detroit needs the big three to survive.....why? Because only 18% of the population has a collegee degree......without line manufacturing work the unemployment would sky rocket in the area.........but then again, it would force people to attain higher education......25% don't even graduate high school.
Mantis correct on the chrysler control issue..the government cqnt make its money back from chrysler in full since they gave fiat so many shares free.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjr_trig http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it/20#post_3386792
Wow, almost like the good old days...The "liberal lawyer" losing another in a line of so many arguments with Reefraff, Darth and Stdreb, just like the old days.
It was such a joke when GM ran those ads last year say they "paid back" the government loans to the U.S. and Canada. GM received $52 billion from the U.S. government, but only $6.7 billion of this amount was considered a loan. I forget, what was the rest of that money considered?
The real travesty is the 6.7 they paid back, was money they were given by the government as part of TARP.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it/20#post_3386826
I supposse a person could call building plants here to avoid tarriffs is a tax break......but that is sort of a stretch.
The union pension plans from the big three add an average of 1700 to the ticket price......
Crimzy isn't so bad, just misguided.
Detroit needs the big three to survive.....why? Because only 18% of the population has a collegee degree......without line manufacturing work the unemployment would sky rocket in the area.........but then again, it would force people to attain higher education......25% don't even graduate high school.
Mantis correct on the chrysler control issue..the government cqnt make its money back from chrysler in full since they gave fiat so many shares free.
Would? You mean has, don't ya?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaKnight http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it/20#post_3386806
Is what it is... I didn't think the bailouts are necessarily a bad thing back then, and still see it now as a positive. It's never been a fair fight to start with. Foreign brands get discounts to move their manufacturing plants Stateside, that 'domestic' companies don't get. Annual reward payouts the Japanese companies receive from Japanese government, and that's the tip of the iceberg.... The bailouts just more so just leveled the playing field.
In the end, my bottom-line is that the consumer is the real winner here, and that what matters most. Neither GM or Chrysler has squandered the money, and both have reinvented themselves, and brought terrific products to market. If GM was still turning out piss-poor products like Pontiac Grand Ams, or Chrysler, Dodge Neons, I could easily see calling the bailouts a bust. But they aren't. GM has brought out lots of great new cars as well as trimming a lot of fat, and Chrysler, even more so, with every model being improved/significantly updated. Of course GM or Chrysler would have been snatched up in bankrupty. But would they have had the freedom to do what they need to do, being now owned by a rival? I don't think so....
I don't see where either company has reinvented itself. I think the addition of Fiat models will help Chrysler but I looked at Chevys new wonder pickup and the Ford and there was no comparison. Dodge wasn't even on my shopping list.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

Would?  You mean has, don't ya?
 
No, I mean would. Historically detroit unemployment has been volatile. In part due to their reliance on manufacturing and low skill over inflated pay jobs....I personally feel the reliance on the big three has created an atmosphere of uneducated. If you can get a high paying high benefit job with little education...why continue schooling? In part the union has contributed to the lack of education in detroit.....in part the union has created a social state...the populace is so reliant on themthat they have no choice but to support them. If the big three folded or even one of them you would have a huge section of the population on the federal nipple for a long time. Because they donthave the education to help themselves.
This is one reasoni was against the bailout.......
We had an airplane. Company here called eclipse....was growing real fast..then some problems came up they over extended. Had file bankruptsy and close the doors to the plant. Those let go, found jobs with other companies some not in the same field. Why, because the eclipse job required a higher education.because ofthat they were able to find jobs for similar pay. If you have a high paying job with no need for higher education then how do you find the same if it dissappears. Oh and the eclipse employees had the same average salary as the average UAW employee.
Darth (ramblin) Tang
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
Google state subsidies for foreign car manufacturers. States like Tennessee, Georgia and Alabama are giving hundreds of millions in subsidies to the foreign car companies to put their plants there. They are getting direct subsidies from the states, so it is a whole lot more than not paying tariffs. I've yet to hear one Republican or conservative like Lush talk about how anti-free market the state subsidies to foreign makes is.
http://donklephant.com/2008/12/17/republicans-backed-subsidies-for-foreign-car-manufacturers/
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/03/22/loc_tug-of-war_for.html
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2011/01/11/vw-reaping-benefits-toyotas-labor-tenn-says-sen-corker/
I got a million of them. Same guys calling for Chrysler and GM to die were giving hundreds of millions of $ to foreign car companies. What were you guys saying about free markets and bailouts again?
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385860/most-of-you-were-wrong-do-you-have-the-class-to-admit-it/20#post_3386851
No, I mean would. Historically detroit unemployment has been volatile. In part due to their reliance on manufacturing and low skill over inflated pay jobs....I personally feel the reliance on the big three has created an atmosphere of uneducated. If you can get a high paying high benefit job with little education...why continue schooling? In part the union has contributed to the lack of education in detroit.....in part the union has created a social state...the populace is so reliant on themthat they have no choice but to support them. If the big three folded or even one of them you would have a huge section of the population on the federal nipple for a long time. Because they donthave the education to help themselves.
This is one reasoni was against the bailout.......
We had an airplane. Company here called eclipse....was growing real fast..then some problems came up they over extended. Had file bankruptsy and close the doors to the plant. Those let go, found jobs with other companies some not in the same field. Why, because the eclipse job required a higher education.because ofthat they were able to find jobs for similar pay. If you have a high paying job with no need for higher education then how do you find the same if it dissappears. Oh and the eclipse employees had the same average salary as the average UAW employee.
Darth (ramblin) Tang
A good portion of those manufacturing jobs are already gone. Hundreds of thousands of people have already fled the city in the last decade (myself included). When I left, friends of mine with degrees in fields outside of the automotive industry were waiting tables to make ends meet. More and more schools are closing down every year. Even if the vast majority of kids in that city did wish to go to school there aren't enough to go around. Teachers without jobs. Mom and Pop shops dropping off left and right. Big business moving out. Corruption within the system. At this point it doesn't matter whether you're educated or not. If the jobs aren't they then they just aren't there. The auto companies folding would be nothing more than kicking a horse that is already down and has been for quite some time now.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

Google state subsidies for foreign car manufacturers. States like Tennessee, Georgia and Alabama are giving hundreds of millions in subsidies to the foreign car companies to put their plants there. They are getting direct subsidies from the states, so it is a whole lot more than not paying tariffs. I've yet to hear one Republican or conservative like Lush talk about how anti-free market the state subsidies to foreign makes is.
http://donklephant.com/2008/12/17/republicans-backed-subsidies-for-foreign-car-manufacturers/
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/03/22/loc_tug-of-war_for.html
That is state tax break.....I have no problem with that as the state takes responsibilty. My own state had a decent tax break for the movie industry to film here .......when they did that an entire section of the marketplace openned up here...which expanded into other markets...
State give tax breaks to entice companies foreign and domestic to set up shop...the tax break is usually insignificant in the grand scheme and the taxes collected on the collective revenue more than makes up for it. It is not a special tax break for foreign car companies....ford and chrysler could go to the same. States and receive the same break for building a plant. See our movie tax break here is not exclusiove to onefilm company, but extends to all of tyem....
It is an even across the board tax break on the state level.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top