Mucky reef tank...

[austinfish]

I have a reef tank, it's fairly old(about 9 years). I have always done water changes and over the years have upgraded stuff.
I have good lighting, a wet dry filter, and cleaned part of the bio balls. I have had a real bad Hair algea problem for a really long time. I now only use RO water, only on brand of supplements, and do not feed much. I still have hair algea taking over. I scrub the rocks, glass and everything now about once a week or so.
Should I move all my live rock and get all the muck out from my sand bed?? I have heard yes clean sand bed and no, don't clean your sand bed. I have keeping salt fish for years, but I'm ready to give it up, it's becoming so much work. I can not think of what else to do to get rid of the hair algea. Please help. I change my sea gel(phospate remove beads) often and I have no idea what else to try. I'm the one who's hawkfish, hawkeye vanished

 

[aceiswild7]

u could get an algae blenny but thats still not fixing the problem though it will help with the work.. how much live rock do you have? and how deep is the sand bed... the bio balls may be the problem.

 

[austinfish]

I'm not really sure how much live rock I have. About 30lbs in a 45 gal tank. I have about 1 1/2 inches of what is now live sand. Under my live rocks is really mucky.

 

[jlem]

Do you do weekly water changes. If you do weekly 5 gallon water changes then you can probably stop adding any suppliments besides calcium, which may help out alot. Do you use a prefilter beefore your bioballs and rinse in when you do water changes. Get a bucket. Put all of your bioballs in it with clean water from your tank. Take a powerhead and blow the heck out of the bioballs. Your sand is pretty shallow, so you can probably stir it up really good without hurting anything. I used to use the hagen quickfilters to polish the water and get out lots of gunk. Excess Iodine can cause hair algae. Hope this helps.

 

[austinfish]

I do have a prefilter. I change the pad and rinse it often(2 or 3 times a week).
If I clean all the bioballs, will my tank crash or will the live sand prevent that?
I will lay off the suppliments except the calcuim. I have been keeping up the the KH and the Calcuim. I have had to add a suppliment to increase the KH. Do I need to stop that??
Thank you so much for taking the time to address this!

 

[mlm]

The kh supplement is fine. You need it to keep your ph stable. Have you ever tested your water for phosphates, silacates and nitrates?

 

[jlem]

Keep up the buffer and calcium. If you clean the bioballs with saltwater from your tank in a bucket then your bioballs will retain the beneficial bacteria. Freshwater will kill everything but saltwater from your tank won't. I stir up my SB once a week when I change water and clean my filter pad monthly. It is a Deep Sand Bed that you don't clean. A shallow Sand Bed should get stirred occasionally to get gunk up to the prefilter. I stir up mine right before I change out water so I can syphon out any large pieces of crud. I would clean the bioballs a couple of times a year if you use a prefilter. You will find that lots of people re going with smaller frequent water changes to keep up levels in their tanks.

 

[hondo]

I recently defeated Hair algae outbreak in my tank. It's not a quick thing to overcome as it takes time. The cause is always the same too many nutrients in the water for the Hair algae to feed on. Remove the nutrients and the Hair Algae will slowly go away. to remove the nutrients we need to know more about your equipment and bio load. How good is your skimmer? definitely clean or get rid of the bio balls (but as posted earlier if you clean them do it in salt water). the wet dry will create nitrates for the hair algae to feed on so either lose it or create something to remove the nitrates (DSB, or refugium). Also what is your current clean up crew? as by your description of the "Muck" in the sand bed they are not doing their job or your bio load and or feeding is so high that they can't keep up. More info would help but you get my point attack the food source for the Hair algae and you will eventualy get rid of it, by attacking the hair algae you have found out that it grows back quicker than you can remove it.

 

[bang guy]

I'm with Hondo. With the rock and sand you have in there you can slowly (over a month) remove all of your bio-balls. In addition you could get some macro algae to compete with the hair and/or slowly add another couple inches of sand.
None of these solutions will be quick to fix your problem, but if you incorporate all three methods it will be a permanent solution provided you currently have a live sand bed with worms and 'pods.

 

[sgt__york]

I've gotta ask (coming from the old school of bio balls) - WHY are the bio ball more harmful? Someone said they produce nitrates. Isn't it the bio-"LOAD" that creates the ammonia, and thus eventually Nitrates? Bio-balls are plastic, and thus inorganic. In and of themselves help create NOTHING except a location for desired bacteria. Furthermore, I understand the primary environment needed for such bacteria - is an OXYGEN enriched environment. I have been told that the Wet/Dry bio balls have like a 17ppm of oxygen compared to only 7ppm of those grown in the Live Rock itself - thus requiring much more bacteria and a larger surface area to accomidate the same load.
I am not arguing with anyone - on the contrary - I am looking for clarification AND perhaps see if i am missing a piece of the puzzle. This is the info that i have used to "CLING" to my bio-balls (wet/dry) instead of getting rid of them myself lol I'm looking for knowledge that can genuinely pry my fingers from the methods I clinge to now.
I could be zebra hunting here, but, Is it possible that because the bio balls are in a REMOTE part of the tank "AND THUS" dependant upon the tank's water turnover (as compared to the live rock being INSIDE the tank with more exposure) that bacteria is constantly dying off of one source, to regrow on the other - going back/forth that creates some problems? Does it's remote location create any kind of dye-off of the live rock creating a constant ammonia problem "OR" cause the live rock to produce undesired results OR prevent it from performing another useful function?
I have always viewed it from a function specialization method. I am under the impression (or Dilusion) that the Wet/Dry system provides the best environment to handles the Nitrate cycle and house bacteria utilizing optimum surface area. Although I have not done one yet myself, after all the reading i've done lately, i'm becoming a big fan of ALGAE REFUGIUMS as the most effective nitrate conversion environment. Thus leaving the main tank for display, fish and corals. Sand beds are not needed - altho for appearance crushed coral and small shells can serve as a BUFFERING function. And Live rock still acts as a great backup and introduces more life and other benefits to complete the tanks needs. And of course, plenty of skimming to remove proteins.
Please correct me if I am wrong, missing pieces of the puzzle, or have things mixed up. I know that sand and live rock "CAN" be a substitute for bio-balls - but WHY as they bring in their own baggage of problems (muck, cleaning, need for worms to turnover the area to prevent anaerobic decay buildup, etc)?
I am not against bio-ball removal "IF" someone can genuinely convince me of their harm or inability to serve other necessities of the tank. I sincerely hope someone can tackle this issue for me.

 

[hondo]

Bio balls are not harmful. they are just extremely efficient at turning nitrite into nitrate. So efficient that most people tend to increase their bioload because the bioball/wetdry filters can handle it. the only problem is what do you do with the increased amount of nitrate being produced? without a DSB or refugium the only way to remove it from the system is through constant water changes above and beyond what is required normally. Removing the bioballs and allowing the LR and LS to filter the water is only one possibility. Keeping the wetdry and the bioballs and adding a DSB or refugium is another possibility. Reducing the bioload is yet another possibility but the whole point is that removing the nitrates and or nutrients from the water is the only way to get the hair algae under control. As for crushed coral substrate it does in fact trap detrious and will need to be constantly cleaned or it will also add to the problem. Not saying anything is wrong with CC just that it needs cleaning or it will be a problem. A DSB does not need to be cleaned and if it appears that it does in fact need cleaning then your clean up crew and sand bed fauna are not doing their job. bottom line is there are many different ways to operate these systems and they all work to some degree. It's just a matter of personal preference. Let's face it some people are still operating great looking tanks with undergravel filters while others switch to every new idea as soon as someone has it. that's one of the things I like most about this hobby is there are many many ways to do it right.

 

[jlem]

The wet/dry is not increasing nitrates more than the tank would . A maintained wet/dry will actually decrease the bioload by removing solid waste before it can break down. You have to clean the prefilter of course to make this theory effective, and even then it is you who are reducing the bioload and not the filter, but you get the idea.. Nitrates may not be a problem. I would avoid the DSB or ditching the bioballs right now. Your tank may just need less additives and The sand turned up every so often to get stuff to the prefilter and out of the tank. A 6 inch sandbed is alot of space. A DSB will only benefit if your bioload produces more nitrate than what the Live rock can handle. What fish do you have. If you have grazers then cut back feeding to every other day and see how it goes. As long as you fish are'nt really skinny then they are eating fine.

 

[sgt__york]

Hondo,
So the real problem is utilzing the bio-balls high efficiency to OVERSTOCK a bio load then? Which would be good for fish only tanks perhaps, but quite disasterous for coral tanks. So if i understand what ur saying, bio balls DO perform their function better than Live Rock - so much so that with a coral reef or LOW fish load - you just have a vast more surface area for bacteria than what is being used.
Is there any problem with the remote location of the bioballs tho? The fact that they are dependant upon water flow turnover? Bio Load is obviously dissipated throughout the water in ppm - thus the bio balls can only CONVERT from water that which it receives. Is it possible in turning over the tank (and having powerheads in the tank circulating water) that some ratio of water NEVER actually gets turned over but stays in the tank circulating? Could THIS cause low level ammonia levels to persist? OR would the live rock pickup any slack and serve as the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate conversion surface as well? AND if it did, does it stand to reason, that it (the bacteria in the LR) would die off as not needed - as the bio balls fight to produce the bacteria in an oxygen enriched environment - creating a small cycle of good bacteria die off?
I'm just wondering, as I contemplate the LR and bio ball interactions of one another AND (if it's even connected) that i have a nagging low level (.25) ammonia level that I cannot get to go away. I only feed every 4 days or so (2-3 flakes), and only have 5 small damsels in a 75 gal tank - it cannot be overfeeding or load.

 

[hondo]

yes I definitely think if the water turn over rate is below 10X (personaly I prefer 15X to 20X for a reef tank) then this could contribute to these problems. I don't think you would get much of an amonia spike from bacteria die off. more than likely the low level amonia is caused by detrius decaying and poor water movement which does not allow the amonia to circulate to the filter fast enough. Remember excess feeding is only one cause you also have to consider fish waste. How is it getting processed when it gets trapped in the CC or against LR. A clean up crew will remove this trapped waste before it can decay and cause problems, and good water circulation will keep some of the waste from getting trapped in the first place

 

[sgt__york]

ahhh... well, as seen below in my setup, i think 4 powerheads in the tank should be AMPLE circulation, although most of it is thru the heart of the tank - not directed at the bottom realy. And i do NOT have a cleanup crew (as i thought that was post-cycle) thus i have about 4-5wks of fish detrius likely on the substrate floor. Perhaps, vacuuming the subrate will help with this problem then, and getting a cleanup crew. Thanks a heap.
Btw, is there a differecne between 'crushed coral' and seafloor (which is mostly very small seashells) as a substrate? The LFS told me it's GOOD that it captures small debris, that it gets broken down in this substrate.

 

[smalltimer]

Have you checked phophates and silicates, if high run remover only 3 days, max at a time before changing, til phoghates and silicates are nill to none, nitrates need to be below 5 ppm, or you will grow funky stuff......................

 

[bang guy]

sgt_york,
The DSB theory has been proven time after time to work as advertised. As Hondo indicated Bio-Balls are extremely efficient at converting Ammonia to Nitrite and Nitrite to Nitrate. I disagree with Hondo that the reason nitrates increase is only because of overstocking.
Nitrate don't just go away. They must be removed. Water changes will remove a lot but nitrates accumulate pretty fast. The nusiance algae in your tank is actually removing a LOT of your nitrates. If you do manage to eliminate your nusiance algae through the use of scrubbing or a fish expect to see your Nitrates climb significantly.
I suggested a macro algae like Caulerpa because it's easy to harvest. Every handful you pull out removes a lot of accumulates Nitrate. The same can be said for you nusiance algae but you have to harvest it to remove the nutrients.
I suggested adding a couple inches of sand because a DSB containing a lot of fauna will convert Nitrate to Nitrogen if given the chance.
I suggested removing the bio-balls because you have enough sand in your tank to handle your bio-load and to give the sandbed and your live rock a chance to process the nitrates. Converting Nitrate to Nitrogen gas takes place deep in your rock or a few inches below the surface of a sand bed. But it requires that the nitrite be converted to Nitrate locally before it is diluted into the tank water.
If you're interested in more detail read this exerpt ---> http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm
Bottom line - DSB's work I've witnessed it myself many times.
Guy

 

[austinfish]

I do have High phospate, I'm currently trying to fix that problem.
I have a 45 gal tank, it has a protien skimmer, wet/dry filter(I'm going to was the bio balls with saltwater)
About 30 lbs of live rock
some stoney corals and soft(only the hardest)
I have a few clams that came in on my live rock.
1 sailfin tang (large, about 4 inches across, have had him over 4years)
1 tom clown
1 Bi color(pink and yellow, mean little fish, I'd like to move to my other tank)
I have more cleaners, but I think the little mean guy has been eating everything. He ate a wonderful blood shrimp and a cleaner shrimp(I really want him out!).
I used to have a hawkfish, who is still mia.
I think you for all your seggestions on my tank problem.
It's nice to find other folks into the art of reefkeeping!