My dog is sick, I need some advice

[beth]

So how can you remove the meat from raw chicken? Can't you feed the dog the innards from whole chicken, gizzards, liver, whatever for those vits? Maybe a vit supplement? It might get expensive to feed a dog a diet of total raw meet. But, it makes sense that is what their ancestors ate. Do they eat less if its strictly raw meet? Are they healthier?
Flower, you dogs are spoiled rotten! If I die, let me come back as a dog in your household. LOL

 

[2quills]

Bones: I thought the idea was that most bird bones are ok, chicken, duck, turky etc, to feed since they're soft the dogs can chew em pretty easy and get to the nutritious marrow. Been told to stay away from T-bones and pork chop bones, basically bones that are hard that can get stuck in their throats. With the acception of large bones for gnawing on.

 

[darthtang aw]

So how can you remove the meat from raw chicken?   Can't you feed the dog the innards from whole chicken, gizzards, liver, whatever for those vits?  Maybe a vit supplement?    It might get expensive to feed a dog a diet of total raw meet.  But, it makes sense that is what their ancestors ate.  Do they eat less if its strictly raw meet?   Are they healthier?
Flower, you dogs are spoiled rotten!  If I die, let me come back as a dog in your household.   LOL
It is expensive to feed a completely raw diet. Not so bad if little dogs. When I had four Danes I was going through 20 lbs of meat every 2 days. that does not include the other stuff I would at to the mixture. Since it is raw they do eat less. The organs will provide some things, but what is missing is usually the stomach and intestines (primarily upper intestine) which would house the partially digested vegetable or grains the animal had ate. This is where the dogs get certain vitamins. However, supplements can replace this. Probl;em is lots of people think just the meat will sustain. Not entirely the case.
Chicken backs are great, but not as a main source, this is far more bone than meat. meaning some things would be lacking. including fat since the chicken back doesn't contain much fat.
There are companies that prepackage the diet for you. They all range in percentages. Some are 95% meat,bone and organ with 5% vegetables. 90/10, 85/15, 80/20, as low as 75/25, but doing it this way can run you almost 4 to 7 dollars a pound. You can even get dehydrated raw dog food. 10 lbs will run about 90 dollars, but it makes 40 lbs of food. (Ironically some hurricane states have people that will purchase a specific company's veggie dehydrated mix for emergencies). The advantage by buying packaged raw dog food is it is monitored by FDA and tested for bacteria and such. Buying from a supermarket or butcher is monitored by USDA. USDA does not test for bacteria as it is unfinished product and unfinished product is expected to contain bacteria such as salmonella...

 

[darthtang aw]

Bones: I thought the idea was that most bird bones are ok, chicken, duck, turky etc, to feed since they're soft the dogs can chew em pretty easy and get to the nutritious marrow.  Been told to stay away from T-bones and pork chop bones, basically bones that are hard that can get stuck in their throats.  With the acception of large bones for gnawing on.
All bones are ok, as long as they are not boiled, smoked, or cooked in any fashion. They remain plyable in the raw state.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/395123/my-dog-is-sick-i-need-some-advice/20#post_3517040
All bones are ok, as long as they are not boiled, smoked, or cooked in any fashion. They remain plyable in the raw state.
Dang...can't even add a little smokey flavor? No cooked bones, peroid! Check
You aint kidding about cost. After our last doggy thread you inspired to me look a little deeper at my dogs diets. I quit feeding them primarily science diet kibble (which is primarily what our vet pushes). You're probably not a fan of the big chain pet stores but most of them now all have dedicated isles to healthier and more natural dog foods. Started feeding the dogs a combination of Nature's Balance in kibble form and the softer form which comes in tubes like sausage.
The Alpha formula that I feed the big dogs is lamb, chicken meal and rabbit. But it has cranberries, apples, blueberry, zuchini and alfafa meal. So I guess it's balanced for protein, energy and digestion. It's twice the cost of science diet but I only have to feed half as much weight per serving vs the science diet. Then whatever raw meat we give em. It's mostly beef because that's what we get the best deals on. But I have noticed that the local butcher sells a lot of different raw bones. I may look into that some more and see what else is around locally.
Cost for dog food before was roughly $40 a week, and now we're looking at right about $100. But again, I have definitely seen some noticeable changes in activity. They run a little bit harder, and a little bit longer. Actually, they pretty much don't stop running and chasing each other around the yard all evening long.

 

[darthtang aw]

Which line of natural balance are you feeding? Sounds like you may be paying to much. The tubes I am not a big fan of. More potato than anything. Depending on which natural balance you feed you could be feeding to much potato. Lol some of their formulas are like feeding a sack of potatoes. It is still better than science diet. But for what you sound like you are spending you might be able to get a better product for the same price range.

 

[kiefers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/395123/my-dog-is-sick-i-need-some-advice/20#post_3517040
All bones are ok, as long as they are not boiled, smoked, or cooked in any fashion. They remain plyable in the raw state.
Okay waite........ Your saying not to boil or cook these bones? I can see some of the logic behind this but I give my Danes a cow femur bones from time to time but I boil them for 30 before hand. Your saying to give it to them raw?

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/395123/my-dog-is-sick-i-need-some-advice/20#post_3517082
Which line of natural balance are you feeding? Sounds like you may be paying to much. The tubes I am not a big fan of. More potato than anything. Depending on which natural balance you feed you could be feeding to much potato. Lol some of their formulas are like feeding a sack of potatoes. It is still better than science diet. But for what you sound like you are spending you might be able to get a better product for the same price range.
Alpha dog formula (kibble) this is pretty much the most expensive line they carry in this brand at $60 for a 25lb bag...
Lamb, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Garbanzo Beans, Peas, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Sweet Potatoes, Natural Flavor, Rabbit, Alfalfa Meal, Beet Pulp, Pea Protein, Potato Starch, Dried Egg, Salmon Oil, Vegetable Pomace (carrot, celery, beet, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach), Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Cranberries, Blueberries, Apples, Zucchini, Dried Kelp, Vitamins (vitamin E supplement, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid), Taurine, Inulin, Minerals (zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous sulfate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate), L-carnitine, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-methionine, L-lysine, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid (preservatives).
Guaranteed Analysis




Crude Protein



26.0% minimum







Crude Fat



11.5% minimum







Crude Fiber



4.0% maximum





Moisture

10px; text-align: right;">
10.0% maximum




Omega-6 Fatty Acids*



2.0% minimum







Omega-3 Fatty Acids*



0.3% minimum




And the premium rolls (beef, lamb, turkey) they go nuts for this stuff...
Lamb Lungs, Wheat Flour, Sugar, Lamb, Wheat Bran, Lamb Hearts, Salt, Rice Flour, Calcium Carbonate, Egg, Glycerin, Lecithin, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Natural Smoke Flavor, Ascorbic Acid, Natural Flavor, Powdered Garlic, Vitamin E Supplement, Kelp Meal, Brewers Yeast, Calcium Disodium, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Benzoate, Rosemary Extract, Canola Oil, Sodium Erythorbate, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Sodium Nitrite, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Natural Mixed Tocopherols.
Guaranteed Analysis




Crude Protein



11.0% minimum







Crude Fat



6.0% minimum







Crude Fiber



4.0% maximum







Moisture



40% maximum




They're both grain free so I assume that means low carb.

 

[flower]

I raised Atticus on Eukanuba (spelling???) No way can I get him to touch dry or canned dog food. He turns into a fuzzy skeleton, then he will nibble just enough to stay alive. The same dish of dry Eukanuba would stay for 3 days. I was sure eventually he would eat it.
Oh for the days we didn't cook chicken. Atticus was a very thin waif, until my Mother came to live with me and started cooking chicken to get him to eat. He finally looks like a healthy dog, a little thin according to the vet, but healthy. He is 8 years old... and honestly he is a giant cat, he LOVES canned tuna. Not cat food tuna...people "Chicken of the Sea" tuna. Try feeding something like that to 100lb dog. If he refuses to eat anything, we can always get him to eat tuna. I have purchased so many different brands of dog food and gave it way, that I lost count. I always try a small bag first, or 2 cans and then if he eats it, I buy the big bag or a case of the canned...GGRRR a week later, he refuses to continue eating it.
He vomited last night, so I'm off to the vet this morning.

 

[darthtang aw]

Th
Alpha dog formula (kibble) this is pretty much the most expensive line they carry in this brand at $60 for a 25lb bag...
Lamb, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Garbanzo Beans, Peas, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Sweet Potatoes, Natural Flavor, Rabbit, Alfalfa Meal, Beet Pulp, Pea Protein, Potato Starch, Dried Egg, Salmon Oil, Vegetable Pomace (carrot, celery, beet, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach), Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Cranberries, Blueberries, Apples, Zucchini, Dried Kelp, Vitamins (vitamin E supplement, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid), Taurine, Inulin, Minerals (zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous sulfate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate), L-carnitine, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-methionine, L-lysine, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid (preservatives).
Guaranteed Analysis


Crude Protein


26.0% minimum





Crude Fat


11.5% minimum





Crude Fiber


4.0% maximum





Moisture


10.0% maximum





Omega-6 Fatty Acids*


2.0% minimum





Omega-3 Fatty Acids*


0.3% minimum
 



And the premium rolls (beef, lamb, turkey) they go nuts for this stuff...
Lamb Lungs, Wheat Flour, Sugar, Lamb, Wheat Bran, Lamb Hearts, Salt, Rice Flour, Calcium Carbonate, Egg, Glycerin, Lecithin, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Natural Smoke Flavor, Ascorbic Acid, Natural Flavor, Powdered Garlic, Vitamin E Supplement, Kelp Meal, Brewers Yeast, Calcium Disodium, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Benzoate, Rosemary Extract, Canola Oil, Sodium Erythorbate, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Sodium Nitrite, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Natural Mixed Tocopherols.
Guaranteed Analysis


Crude Protein


11.0% minimum





Crude Fat


6.0% minimum





Crude Fiber


4.0% maximum





Moisture


40% maximum
 



They're both grain free so I assume that means low carb.
the rolls aren't grain free and high in sugar. Better designed as as treat.
The alpha dog is their best line. No complaints for the most part from me. But for the cost I can think of a few foods in the same price range that are better. One is 81% meat content and extruded at a temp of 160 degrees. 90% of the ingredients are sourced within sixty miles of the plant. Look into horizon legacy. IMO it is the best kibble manufacturer on the market. Only small stores will carry it though.

 

[meowzer]

Good luck...let us know what the vet says

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzer http:///t/395123/my-dog-is-sick-i-need-some-advice/20#post_3517121
Good luck...let us know what the vet says
Well $486.81 later....he has an infection in his digestive system. He has two types of medications to take, and he got a shot to kick start the antibiotics. he is slightly dehydrated, and he lost 4 pounds...that doesn't sound like much, but he was underweight to start with for his size. So I'm glad I got him in before Monday, he would have continued vomiting and would have been dehydrated really bad by that time.
They took X-rays to make sure he had no blockages and probed his rear to see what what nasties may be hanging around, he also has a fever. LOL..he sat down in hopes of getting out of that one. He felt so lousy he didn't really protest much or growl at the doctor, he even lay still on his back during the X-ray. Poor baby, he should feel better now with the shot, and the doctor said he should be his normal self in about 4 days time, if not he has to come back.
The doctor was very happy with the boiled chicken and rice, she wants that diet to continue for a week...little portions and increased as he is able to keep it down.
I have to thank everyone for the help they offered...whew...I hate when my babies are sick. Now to get the carpets steam cleaned.

 

[beth]

Did they test a "sample" or draw blood? Usually, that is the only way to id a bacterial infection that would warrant antibiotics. Viral infections will not respond to antibiotics.
Hope he feels better soon!
You know reading what you posted made me think that animals going to vet get better checks then when we go the doctor's office. LOL

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/395123/my-dog-is-sick-i-need-some-advice/20#post_3517128
Well $486.81 later....he has an infection in his digestive system. He has two types of medications to take, and he got a shot to kick start the antibiotics. he is slightly dehydrated, and he lost 4 pounds...that doesn't sound like much, but he was underweight to start with for his size. So I'm glad I got him in before Monday, he would have continued vomiting and would have been dehydrated really bad by that time.
They took X-rays to make sure he had no blockages and probed his rear to see what what nasties may be hanging around, he also has a fever. LOL..he sat down in hopes of getting out of that one. He felt so lousy he didn't really protest much or growl at the doctor, he even lay still on his back during the X-ray. Poor baby, he should feel better now with the shot, and the doctor said he should be his normal self in about 4 days time, if not he has to come back.
The doctor was very happy with the boiled chicken and rice, she wants that diet to continue for a week...little portions and increased as he is able to keep it down.
I have to thank everyone for the help they offered...whew...I hate when my babies are sick. Now to get the carpets steam cleaned.
Is this something that maybe has been going on with your dog for a long time? Might explain the ridiculously finicky apatite. Man, can't even afford for a dog to go to the doc anymore LOL!

 

[al mc]

In my experience German Shepard dogs have the most finicky intestinal tracts. Many of these guys/gals have food allergies and can't tolerate certain proteins or carbohydrates. In addition, many of them have Pancreatic insufficiencies where their pancreas is not producing enough of the digestive enzymes that enable them to break down and absorb their foods properly.
Having come to this thread late I would generally agree that a bland diet (personally I agree with Beth about the meat..no veggie..baby food...1 jar mixed with one cup of brown or white rice makes a good one) for a couple days along with some Metronidazole (antibiotic that also does a nice job settling intestinal irritation..especially lower bowel) will usually help quite a bit. Mediaction for vomiting and reflux can also be given (disclaimer: I am not your vet and have not examined Atticus so your vet knows best)...in general, a dog this size does well on over the counter Pepcid, conservative dose...10mg twice daily.
Blood work....If radiographs are 'clean' then if this continues a routine CBC/Organ profile with possibly a 'mal digestion' add on test would be a good idea. This maldigestion part will test whether he has a bacterial overgrowth, and absorption problem or is not making enough pancreatic enzymes.

 

[al mc]

Foods:
Raw diets: These are fine if properly handled. Problem: Many people do not properly handle them and they become contaminated with Salmonella, etc.. If you are careful they can be great especially if you have a dog or cat with confirmed food allergies
Basic digestion: I was literally just at a conference about two weeks ago where the speaker is a 'Integrative Medicine' veterinarian at the University of Tennessee. She had a long discussion about diets. A couple 'pearls' from her talk
1. An article in a scientific journal (sorry, can't remember the name off the top of my head...I will look for it when in at work next week)...indicated that now that we can map the genomes of animals the genomes of wolves and domesticated dogs are obviously very similar. One major difference is that domesticated dogs have a gene(s) that allow them to digest carbohydrates while wolves do not.
2 New buzz word is 'grain free' diets, especially for cats who do not seem able to digest carbohydrates efficiency.
3. Prescription diets (Hills, Carnation) are held to a higher standard than regular commercial foods. This is why when you read the contents of regular commercial food you will see a range of percentages of fat, protein, carbs while on a bag of 'prescription diet' it should have an absolute percentage. So, if eating a prescription food you should be confident that each bag is identical in contents to the next one. Disclaimer: I get no money from Hills

and I feed my dogs a commercial diet I buy in my local pet store

 

[flower]

Meat baby food and the rice I could do....but I would have to use a case of those little jars of baby food to feed my 100lb shepherd. So boiling 10lbs of chicken was the way for me to go.
reefraff, It is interesting about you saying maybe why Atticus has always been finicky. However he was always picky, but not vomiting. When he was a pup any diet changes would bring on horrible diarrhea...but that's true of many puppies.
Thanks Al Mc for chiming in. Hopefully this will all be resolved now. He is on the antibiotics and pills for vomiting, he hasn't gotten sick since the vet visit...fingers crossed that continues.

 

[darthtang aw]

When he was a pup any diet changes would bring on horrible diarrhea...but that's true of many puppies.
Thats true of most dogs and people. Dietary change affects a digestive system until it adjusts. Eat seafood most of your life then move to mexican food for a week and see how your system reacts.........

 

[darthtang aw]

You know reading what you posted made me think that animals going to vet get better checks then when we go the doctor's office.  LOL
Might have something to do with the cash payment right there and then instead of waiting for insurance payments and medicare/medicaid....

 

[darthtang aw]

Foods:
Raw diets:  These are fine if properly handled.  Problem:  Many people do not properly handle them and they become contaminated with Salmonella, etc..  If you are careful they can be great especially if you have a dog or cat with confirmed food allergies
Basic digestion:  I was literally just at a conference about two weeks ago where the speaker is a 'Integrative Medicine' veterinarian at the University of Tennessee.  She had a long discussion about diets.  A couple 'pearls' from her talk
1.  An article in a scientific journal (sorry, can't remember the name off the top of my head...I will look for it when in at work next week)...indicated that now that we can map the genomes of animals the genomes of wolves and domesticated dogs are obviously very similar.  One major difference is that domesticated dogs have a gene(s) that allow them to digest carbohydrates while wolves do not. 
2  New buzz word is 'grain free' diets, especially for cats who do not seem able to digest carbohydrates efficiency. 
3.  Prescription diets (Hills, Carnation) are held to a higher standard than regular commercial foods.   This is why when you read the contents of regular commercial food you will see a range of percentages of fat, protein, carbs while on a bag of 'prescription diet' it should have an absolute percentage.  So, if eating a prescription food you should be confident that each bag is identical in contents to the next one.  Disclaimer:  I get no money from Hills:t^:  and I feed my dogs a commercial diet I buy in my local pet store
concerning #2 I agree it is turning into a buzz word and actually a bit asinine. Most grain free food on the market still are overly high in potato which is high in carbohydrates...Mostly used as a cost reducer.........
Concerning #3...It is my understanding this is why they require a prescription. There is no true "medicinal" value in the the food. Their restrictions for variances are just tighter. Meaning the protein levels will be exact instead of "a minimum". But the ingredient content could be no different than a Purina. Seems odd to require a prescription to get an exact manufacturing of food....when you dont need one for human food........and have the same restrictions.