Need Help fast!!

[golgi aparatus]

Now I am very confused....All I have read on this forum is about drip acclimation and that is how I have introduced all of my livestock so far. I just got back from what is considered the most reputable LFS in town and the guy basically told me that drip was the worst thing I could do, especially to my fish. He said something about how when the pH drops as the water is in the bag, ammonia is created...blah blah. Basically called me an idiot.
I am very frusterated right now.
ANyway, my trouble is I have a new feather duster and 4 mex turbos in the bag from the LFS and need to know how to properly acclimate both.
Should I do drip, or float the bag for 15 minutes???
Please help FAST!

 

[farslayer]

Your LFS is run by a moron. You need to float the bags for about 20 minutes to help with the water temperature, then drip them in. Your drip bucket should have an airstone and a heater to maintain temperature (beware of melting the container!).
The LFS guy obviously failed chemistry Trust us, we know everything

 

[aztec reef]

I float everything..But that sounds like LFS bs. plus you drip-acclimate in a bucket/container Not in the bag..

 

[golgi aparatus]

Thanks...no he was not talking about dripping in the bag. He was saying the process involved in dripping was causing huge ammonia spikes in the water thus damaging the livestock. That is the basic gist of what he was saying. It ticked me off due to it going against everything I had heard around here.
So you guys do reccomend floating for a bit then drip acclimating both the mex snails and the feather duster right?

 

[farslayer]

Inverts are esp. sensitive and must be dripped, no less than two hours at 4-6 drops per second. The LFS guy is just plain wrong. This who "ammonia in the bag" is bologna. Now, you do discard the water in the bucket. You use a net to fish out the animals you dripped and place them directly in the tank. Yes, there will be some ammonia in the container, but not much since you, uh, don't feed them in there.

 

[andreyv]

I dripped everything I have in my tank – just to be on a safe side.

However,,,, I also know that none of 3 stores around me
drip fish/corals when they get them. Just float bags to temp acclimate.
They do drip snails though.
And I bought all my live stock from them. Knock on the wood – no problems so far.

 

[f14peter]

I'm far from an expert in such things, but I'm having trouble understanding the relationship of a Ph drop and the creation of ammonia, especially in such a relatively short time. Granted, there may be some fish poop in the bag, but it sure seems to me that it wouldn't start decaying (and creating ammonia) so quickly.
Seeing that the "Old Salts" (pun intended) on this board recommend drip-acclimation by a vast majority, I wouldn't have any qualms about it.
Maybe the LFS isn't in favor of drip-acclimation since as it seems like more work and delays the introduction of the fish into the tank (presuming the buyer isn't using a QT), some potential buyers may shy away and not purchase it.
BTW, my drip-acclimation method is to use two identical Tuperware bowls, one inside the other. The inner bowl has a bunch of holes drilled in it so that when it comes time to put the fish in the tank, I lift the inner bowl out of the outer one, the water drains out, and a quick flip puts in the fish. The fish is only out of the water for a couple of seconds and isn't subjected to netting ... a little better I think.

 

[autofreak44]

Originally Posted by f14peter
BTW, my drip-acclimation method is to use two identical Tuperware bowls, one inside the other. The inner bowl has a bunch of holes drilled in it so that when it comes time to put the fish in the tank, I lift the inner bowl out of the outer one, the water drains out, and a quick flip puts in the fish. The fish is only out of the water for a couple of seconds and isn't subjected to netting ... a little better I think.
nice trick

 

[weezer591]

usually with inverts i do temp acclimation for about 45 minutes, then i take a half of cup of water ever 15-20 minutes in until the bags full.
then just dump them in.
all of my invertts have lived from that
ex.
my chocolate chip star/pink tip anenome/hermits/sand sifting star

 

[farslayer]

That's the shot glass method. Yes it generally works, but requires someone to stand there and dump water. Dripping is automated by gravity and adjusts the water more slowly.
I couldn't discern the pH and ammonia relationship either, since they're not related. Ammonia can definitely get in the bag, but yeah, the timeframe is just too short. If there were that much ammonia in the bag, fish would die in transport to the LFS at a rate of 100%.

 

[lexluethar]

Drip acclimate... Next time you talk to your LFS please have him draw you a diagram of how drip acclimation increases ammonia - that might be the most rediculous thing i've heard of before. If there is ammonia in the bag it is because his tanks have ammonia in them and was in the bag in the first place.
Once he draws you a diagram post in online for us.

 

[symon]

Trust me that LFS guy isn't just retarded he's just wrong!
He probably only knows what he has been told and has his facts all wrong! The reason for dripping your critters is to slowly aclimate them to your tank parameters, you will probably not be set to the same ph , salinity or temp. So to give them the best chance you drip them!
It really concens me when people only know enough to cause trouble!

 

[nietzsche]

i think he was talking about something else.. this is what ophiura told me when i had asked about acclimating
"The actual reason, though they didn't really elaborate all that well, is tied to pH and toxicity of ammonia.
Fish are in shipping bags for quite awhile, meaning they produce waste...ammonia.
They also respire. This is CO2 which combines with water to form carbonic acid.
This lowers the pH. Which is handy, because at lower pH, ammonia is less toxic.
But when the pH increases, such as during an acclimation, the ammonia becomes more toxic, resulting in more stress.
This IMO holds for fish that may have been shipped for some time, but possibly less so for short periods. Fish are also FAR more tolerant of rapid changes in salinity and pH than inverts are.
One key question in terms of inverts is how different the shipment is in terms of specific gravity. If there is not a significant difference, they might not have many losses, even for inverts during that time period."

 

[nietzsche]

oh and that was because I had said that at petland the guy only believed in temp. acclimating everything.. inverts, fish, coral. he said that acclimating was only going to prolong the stress so he just threw them in there. i don't drip acclimate but I just add a cup of water from my DT to the container where the new fish are every 15 min. for half an hour

 

[golgi aparatus]

Originally Posted by nietzsche
i think he was talking about something else.. this is what ophiura told me when i had asked about acclimating
"The actual reason, though they didn't really elaborate all that well, is tied to pH and toxicity of ammonia.
Fish are in shipping bags for quite awhile, meaning they produce waste...ammonia.
They also respire. This is CO2 which combines with water to form carbonic acid.
This lowers the pH. Which is handy, because at lower pH, ammonia is less toxic.
But when the pH increases, such as during an acclimation, the ammonia becomes more toxic, resulting in more stress.
This IMO holds for fish that may have been shipped for some time, but possibly less so for short periods. Fish are also FAR more tolerant of rapid changes in salinity and pH than inverts are.
One key question in terms of inverts is how different the shipment is in terms of specific gravity. If there is not a significant difference, they might not have many losses, even for inverts during that time period."

You know ,this may be exactly what he was trying to explain to me yesterday. Still, that upset me a bit. I am relatively new to this and am trying to absorb as much info I can, however getting alot of conflicting advice makes my head want to explode

All I can say is that I gathered from this site that drip is the way to go and I have not yet, knock on serious wood, lost any livestock that I drip acclimated.
I get frustrated when someone at the LFS kinda acts like they know everything and that another person's opinion is idiodic. Makes me want to slap them upside their head!!

 

[trippkid]

You hit the nail on the head nietzsche, congrats you get the prize. I was reading this thread and was going to post the same thing. As PH increases, toxicity of ammonia is exponential, meaning becomes harmful even in very small doses. I guess there are still some things to learn for those that know it all.

 

[golgi aparatus]

So what are you saying Trippkid? Do you agree with the dangers of drip? Or do you prefer drip acclimation?

 

[blueram]

I personally only float the fish in the bag for 10 minutes, add some water and then release the fish. I do this for fish and invertebrates. Whenever I buy I coral I just dump it in the tank right away. So far all my livestock has been doing well. I have not lost even one fish, invertebrate or coral.
I know some of you are not going to agree with me but this has worked for me so far.

 

[petjunkie]

I drip acclimate corals and fish that are shipped and use the cup method for an hour on fish that are switching tanks or bought nearby, I still drip inverts except for snails and hermits. I used to but then a couple times while floating and cupping them the bag fell over and I never lost any so now I just temp. acclimate and call it good. Anything sensitive or coming from way different parameters I would drip, most of my fish are hardy gobies and blennies.

 

[trippkid]

I guess sensitive inverts(starfish, urchins, sea slugs,etc.) I drip them, but mostly the stuff I buy is half hour away so usually just temp accimilate fish and coral. As for snails and crabs, they just get thrown in there when I get home. I am sorry you had a bad exp. at the lfs. I hope I didn't offend here, and sorry if I did. There is a lot of chemistry here, I certainly don't know everything, and am always trying(testing,researching) new things, if they seem worth it.