New And Discouraged

[maryd]

I am new to the saltwater world, having had fresh water fish for hmmm..maybe decades. I recently added an African white anemone and it seems to be doing poorly. I got this on Saturday and now it's laying on it's side. Is this normal behavior or am I doing something wrong? I know the ammonia is a tad high and I plan to do a partial water change tonight. This is a 90 gallon tank which has been set up since the end of December. I have 2 clownfish in it, 12 lbs of live rock and several snails.
Any advice?

 

[pashari]

My guess is your tank hasn't cycled. If LR is your main source of filtration you need more than just 12 lbs for a 90 gal tank - more like 90 lbs minimum. Ammonia is very toxic so I'd put a rush on the water change and do not add any more livestock until you know the source of the ammonia. Could be that your tank hasn't fully cycled. Could be that you do not have adequate filtration.
The experts here will want to know what your filtration is, what are your other parameters besides ammonia (i.e. nitrite, nitrate, ph, temperature, etc.) Do you have a skimmer? do you use tap water? what is your substrate?
I don't know much about anenomes, but I thought they needed older, well established tanks and have certain lighting requirements.
lisa

 

[turningtim]

Need to know water parameters? Filtration and lighting? No doubt you need a LOT more LR, somwhere in the neigborhood of 1-1.5 lbs per gallon. Hate to say but I don't think the anemone will survive in that tank right now, they need at least a 1 yo estblished tank. The clowns may make it b/c they are pretty hardy but...... You need to get the Amnn down ASAP! ammn should be 0 before adding livestock.
No worries! You've come to the right place! Lots of great/smart folks around here that like to help! I'm still a newbie too but this should get on the right track!

Welcome to the boards!

HTH
Tim

 

[lion_crazz]

Turning Tim nailed what you want to do with your tank.
If I were you, here would be my plan of action:
1) Make up 30 gallons of water, heat it up, make it to the same salinity and let it sit for 24 hours and make sure the salinity and the temp are exactly the same as in your tank.
2) Take the anemone back and tell them that you were unhappy that no one informed you that it needed strong lighting and an established aquarium.
3) Use the store credit they give you to get live rock. Get as much as you can possibly afford. You want in the neighborhood of 90-100 lbs. You will need to cure the live rock, it cannot be added directly to your aquarium. It will have to sit in buckets or containers with powerheads for 3-5 weeks so that it does not spike the ammonia in your tank.
4) Do a 30 gallon water change with the water you made up in order to get the ammonia down.
5) Do not do anything to your tank for a few weeks, let the bacteria establish itself with the clowns, and meanwhile, focus on curing the rock so you can get that in your tank.
Remember, with saltwater, always take your time. Everything will always do better if you take your time and be patient. Ask a lot of questions and don't be afraid that what you may be asking is a stupid question. The only stupid question is one that goes unasked or assumed.

 

[maryd]

Do I leave the fish and snails with less water while I am waiting for the 30 gallons to be ready to add to the tank? I have some distilled water...should I heat this up a bit and add salt and put that in right away to lower the ammonia?
If the anemone is dead when I get home, will the fish store take it back? The girl working there knows how long I have had the tank set up and what I have in it. I don't know why she'd say this anemone would be good if it's not for newer tanks.

 

[jmick]

Hi Mary, LFS will often tell you things you can do with your tank and they are flat out wrong (they may not know the answer and are just throwing bad info out or more likely, they just want the sell). Anemones should not be white in color and when they are it’s a sign that they’ve lost their zooxanthellae and are bleached out. These animals require pristine water and LOTS of light. I’d recommend you get a copy of the Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Fenner—it’s a great book with lots of info!

 

[maryd]

They called it an African white anemone but it's more of a light yellow in color with blue/ppurple ends. I don't know if I will continue to shop at that store in the future if they misguide me.

 

[lion_crazz]

I would not even give it the chance to die in your tank. This will undoubtedly kill your fish if it dies in your tank. Take it out and take it back. You will not be be able to care for it at this moment.
As for the water change, do not take any water out until you have made 30 gallons up and let it sit 24 hours to mix. Make sure the temp and salinity is EXACTLY the same as in your tank. That means buy an extra small heater if you have to.

 

[turningtim]

I’d recommend you get a copy of the Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Fenner—it’s a great book with lots of info!

YES!

You have to remember that a LFS is there to sell you their stuff and most of the time are not that informed about what they sell. There are good ones you may have to search around your area. You should also know what you want and do your own research before you buy anything. I've seen things that I wanted and done some research and called the store for them to place on hold for me until I can get back to get it.
Its crazy to think someone told you to put anything in that tank after only a couple of weeks. The cycle alone may take longer then that.
Try and take it back and see what they say.......
Hang in there! :happyfish
Tim

 

[wax32]

¡Hola! WELCOME TO THE BOARDS!

Sorry your LFS sold you stuff you weren't ready for!
Your tank is cycling. The guys before me hit the nail on the head: get rid of the anemone, do water changes to keep your ammonia below 1.0ppm, get more live rock.
Keep us up to date!

 

[maryd]

I took the anemone out and put into another tank but it died. It didn't look alive when I got home last night anyway. I removed 15 gallons of water, added new water after warming it, putting the right amount of salt in it. The fish are doing fine today but the ammonia is still a little high at 1.0. I added stuff to take the ammonia level down and that has to cycle for 24 hours.
Now I am considering this is not for me. So much work and expense. I have a 55 gallon fresh tank and that has been about zero trouble. I might clean up the salt tank, remove the crushed coral and turn that into a fresh water tank. I assume I can use the same filtration system but just clean it up?

 

[milomlo]

Oh don't give up just yet. You have found the place to come to for questions. I have also found that the LFS is not trustworthy. You have this site. Ask questions and read read read!
The people on this site are awesome. My personal saviour (for saltwater anyway) has been Wax32. He has helped me out greatly as well as a small handful of others that always answer my questions. Hang in there. Don't give up. It does take some time to get the hang of it, but I promise you, it will be worth it in the long run. You will see so much life in your LR and it truly amazing.
I am a newbie as well. Been doing it only since October. I was lucky in that I got really good LR and my cycle only lasted 7 days. I to made a purchase that the LFS pushed at me. I bought a Sand Sifting Star to help with my sand bed. I have never seen it again. By the time I got home from the store with it 2 of its legs had fallen off and it wasn't in very good shape. After the purchase I found out the the sand sifting star would have been a bad idea anyway because they eat the beneficial bacteria that we are trying to grow to maintain our tanks.
Please don't give it. Give it a chance - you will not be sorry.

 

[maryd]

I have decided to keep trying. I will leave the tank alone except for another water change, I will not add anything more to it until it stablizes. The ammonia has come down but is now at 1.0. After this goes to 0, I will add some more live rock. Will the live rock die due to the high level of ammonia recently? The fish made it thru so far and the clowns seemed just fine this morning. The mushroom polpys on a rock look pretty bad right now. I am hoping they will return to their previous state also.

 

[peter1215]

Mary
many newbees go through similar experiences as you have right now but it will be worth it once your tanks has cycled and matured and you have some awsome fish or corals in your tank . If you want to keep your expenses down i highly recomend shopping online instead of LFS.(let me know if you want some good web sites) you'll pay about 20-30% less. your lfs are only looking to make a buck, not the well being of your tank. I know its a cliche, but patients is a virtue in this hobby.

 

[milomlo]

As far as your LR goes. Yes it is cheaper online - however you will go through another cycle unless you cure it in a large garbage can or something.
Also to keep you expense down you can buy base rock and then put some LR with it. I personally did it 50/50. I have a 29 gal tank and I have 15# base rock which is already getting coraline algae (a good thing) on it and I bought 15# LR. If you get your LR local make sure you buy cured rock and you can put it right in your tank. Go straight home from the LFS with the rock and put it right in. You can also add it slowly you don't need to add 90# of LR right now. You have 12# so get a little base rock and a little LR. Start slow and take your time. If you don't want to go through the curing of the rock yourself and don't want to buy it all at one time then just get cured LR locally and add it slowly. Base rock will save you a ton of money!!

 

[maryd]

I actually have about 19 lbs of live rock and I got a fake rock at ***** the other night but have not put it in. I assume I should wash it with salt water?
I have changed 15 gallons of the water last night and I got 10 gallons of distilled water today which I will heat up and add salt and put that into the tank after I've siphoned out 10 gallons. I hope this will help the ammonia situation.
Now, having changed about 25 gallons of the 90 in the tank, will the entire cycling process start all over or not?
Should I wait until the cycling has stopped to add more live rock or do it now? MY local pet shop sells just cured live rock.
This sure is a learning experience and expensive. But I want to stick it out and I know things will get better.
Thanks all of you for your help.

 

[turningtim]

Hi mary, I would bag the fake rock, it will just take up valuable space in your tank. In a 90 gal tank you want to do a WC of between 5-15% depending on your bio-load per week. So 5-15 gals a week. This will remove some polutants and replace valuable trace elements in the salt.
There is not that much bacteria in the water colum, most of your bio-filtration comes from LR and LS. So the amount of water that you've removed will not start the cycle over. You actually can change as much as you want up to 40% in cases of emergency. I'm not advocating this right now but it can be done.
If you get CURED LR locally I would not think that you would not need to wait. I agree w/milomlo (

) that base rock can be a great $ savings. But you must go slow on your bio-load (adding critters) until it becomes LR. This means you're seeding the base with the LR. You can do the same thing w/LS. If you buy LR on line there is certain amount of die off (due to shipping) that you must get rid of before adding it to your tank. This not difficult and instrutions on how to do so will most likly be included with your purchase. Don't get all excited about the prices of LR on line b/c you must add shipping.
All of things we are advocating are purchases that will make your tank better and give you a better chance of success. It gets much more expensive and frustrating when your livestock dies and you have nothing to show for it.
I'm still very curious about your other water parameters, PH, Trate, Trite, ammn, SAL.
These are basics and you should have a test kit for these. Later you will want to get Calcium, Alk, Mag If you plan on keeping corals.
I would also suggest getting a refractometer for Sal/SG. Hydrometers are very inaccurate.
I'm very glad to hear you are going forward, this is very rewarding hoobby and once you get the tank going you will get sucked in like the rest of us.

:happyfish
Tim

 

[milomlo]

I also agree with Tim

about the fake rock and the rock from you local store. Get some and go ahead and add it. Remember you can add small amounts at one time.
Now when I did mine at 50/50 LR/Base rock I did it all at the same time, but I have a much smaller tank than you. I don't remember if you said you had LS or not. I did not purchase LS, but my sand is now alive from my rock and things. I just bought 30# Aragonite sand and put it in. You can do this and it will save you money also. You can also buy this sand and ask you LFS for a cup full of their LS to seed yours.
I would go ahead and get what you can of LR as it will help to build you bacteria. NOW they do sell something that is suppose to build you bacteria in a bottle. I dont' know the name but I can look it up. I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH THIS and I am NOT telling you to use it. But you can get opinions about it on here. I dont' dose anything to my tank and I suggest you not to dose either. Water changes are the best way to go. Do you have anything else in your tank?

 

[maryd]

I have crushed coral instead of the sand. I was told this was safer for the filter. I can't tell you right now but I have a rather large sump pump type deal with bio balls, a protein skimmer and 2 power heads. I have a few snails, some little crabs, the 2 clownfish,l about 18 lbs of live rock (but the mushrooms look pretty bad on the one), and that's it. I have some plastic greens and a shipwreck. (I like it). I am not using the heater because the light seems to warm the water just fine plus the tank is set up on an inside wall near the kitchen.

 

[milomlo]

Well most folks on this board will sand that the crushed coral needs to be replaced with sand. Crushed Coral can hold Nitrates and this can be very bad. Again you just got some bad advice from the LFS.
Starting now if you have questions about something ask here BEFORE you go to the LFS to buy. When you do a water change againi or later down the road I would replace the crushed coral - although some people on here use it and like it. You will get other comments on the crushed coral from others that know more.
Keep doing the water changes and add your LR. Try to keep your ammonia down. Water changes will do this and try not to over feed your clowns in the mean time.
Here is one of the products I was telling you about :
Stability
New tank stabilization system promotes the rapid and safe establishment of bio-filter to prevent “New Tank Syndrome”. Contains a synergistic blend of aerobic, anaerobic and facultative bacteria to breakdown organic wastes and dissolved gases. Safe for all aquatic plants and animals. 250 ml treats up to 1000 gallons.
Also a product called:
Cycle
Concentrated bacterial formulation rapidly matures new aquariums. Carefully selected strains of beneficial bacteria, including Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter, actively reduce both ammonia and nitrite to prevent fish loss. Also enhances existing biological filters for optimum filter performance to achieve ideal water quality, naturally.
Hope that helps some

Don't give up