New refugium in my sump

[jake0110]

I have a 150 gal FOWLR with a 20-30 gal sump. (I never measured the volume.)
The two overflows enter the sump on the left, and there is one baffle on the right part of the sump.
I have a skimmer and a UV sterilizer.
Here is what I am thinking as a new set up for the sump:
Left side of the sump....
Both overflows hit the refugium ( I am concerned about too much waterflow in to that area)
Install a baffle between the fuge and the center part of the sump.
Center part contains......
Pump to return water back to the main tank
Water flowing back from the UV sterilizer
Then comes the pre-installed baffle
Right side contains......
Skimmer
Pump for the UV sterilizer
Does this sound right?
If so, what do you recommend I use for a baffle on the left side of the sump? My sump is all glass.
Thanks...... =)

 

[mr_x]

i would have the refugium after a baffle. i would have the overflows dumping into the skimmer area, then refugium, then return area.

 

[kjr_trig]

Here is the model mine is based after, unfortunately I did a slightly smaller center section.
http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/f/sump_f.html
I have roughly 25% of my overflow water going into the fuge, i.e. slow flow allowing more contact time in there. On the left, I have the other 75% of the water flowing into the skimmer side. I have Mag 12 powering the Aqau C EV 240. In the center section I have a Mag 18 powering both returns. I also have a Mag 2.5 powering my UV with the water returning right back to the center section.
Read up on Melev's site though...Mark is the sump authority IMO.

 

[jake0110]

Thanks.
I did spend some time on Melev's site. It's excellent.
It looks like, in the example he shows, that the refugium does not have direct water flow through the fuge. It looks like just a little water flows back and forth at the surface. Is that right?

 

[mr_x]

contact time? do you believe that slow water feeds plant life more efficiently than fast water? it doesn't matter if the water in the refugium is fast or slow, as long as it has contact with the macros.

 

[kjr_trig]

Originally Posted by jake0110
http:///forum/post/2700446
Thanks.
I did spend some time on Melev's site. It's excellent.
It looks like, in the example he shows, that the refugium does not have direct water flow through the fuge. It looks like just a little water flows back and forth at the surface. Is that right?
Hmmm, not sure if I am understanding what you are asking....But the example he shows has 2 overflows from the tank. One has 100% of the water going straight to the skimmer side, the other overflow has a splitter or ball valve diverting half the flow to the skimmer side, and half into the refugium. From there you would see fairly heavy flow into the center section from the skimmer side, and slow flow into the center section from the refugium.....BTW I dont use PVC pipe, I use airline tubing.
I really recommend learning from my mistake and go bigger than you think you need, it will give you flexibility down the road to do more...For example I would like to put a small phosban reactor in mine now, but don't really have the space in the center section.

Picture of mine

 

[jake0110]

Right. I didn't see the overflow going into the fuge. I thought I was just sitting on the side without any flow.
So, I guess I need to figure out how to put baffles in the glass tank. Do you have any suggestions?
Perhaps I can just put a container, like a large tupperware, underneath the return with some kind of mesh on top.
Have you seen anyone retrofit an existing glass sump?
Here's my setup:

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by kjr_trig
http:///forum/post/2700478
Hmmm, not sure if I am understanding what you are asking....But the example he shows has 2 overflows from the tank. One has 100% of the water going straight to the skimmer side, the other overflow has a splitter or ball valve diverting half the flow to the skimmer side, and half into the refugium. From there you would see fairly heavy flow into the center section from the skimmer side, and slow flow into the center section from the refugium.....BTW I dont use PVC pipe, I use airline tubing.
I really recommend learning from my mistake and go bigger than you think you need, it will give you flexibility down the road to do more...For example I would like to put a small phosban reactor in mine now, but don't really have the space in the center section.

Picture of mine
Just out of curiosity why the live rock

 

[kjr_trig]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2700846
Just out of curiosity why the live rock
My DT is fairly light on LR as I prefer an open tank with lots of swimming (I have about 175 lbs in my 240), having another 25 in the sump along with the chaeto is jus more biological filtration.

 

[jake0110]

My LFS sells an insertable, acrylic refugium for about $80. It will meet my needs, but it is a little small.
I may go that route. It certainly seems easier than buying a piece of glass and fitting it in the sump. It's pricey, but I'm not sure I'm up for the cut and paste route..

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by kjr_trig
http:///forum/post/2700878
My DT is fairly light on LR as I prefer an open tank with lots of swimming (I have about 175 lbs in my 240), having another 25 in the sump along with the chaeto is jus more biological filtration.
Ok my friend I say this will all due respect and I would not tell anyone how to run their tank.
People use live rock as a breading place for critter, and coraline algae, esthetics (they look nice in their tanks). And denitrification As far as biological filtration goes your tank should support all that you need in nitrification . Now lets look at the addition of live rock in your refug. If you are looking to the live rock to facilitate denitrification you have to consider this. The denitrification accurse with in the rock where anaerobic bacteria colonize. Adding a few pieces of live rock to your refug in not going to give you a big upgrade in denitrification. What you are doing in fact is diminishing the area of sand you have in the refug for colonization of nitrifying bacteria so it’s a trade off. If your purpose is to use your refug for denitrification I would go with a deeper sand bed and an algae that you can harvest such as caulerpa or Cheato. IMO you are getting the best bang out of the size of your refug for combating nitrates.
Again I say this with all due respect and just as food for thought

 

[kjr_trig]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2701094
Ok my friend I say this will all due respect and I would not tell anyone how to run their tank.
People use live rock as a breading place for critter, and coraline algae, esthetics (they look nice in their tanks). And denitrification As far as biological filtration goes your tank should support all that you need in nitrification . Now lets look at the addition of live rock in your refug. If you are looking to the live rock to facilitate denitrification you have to consider this. The denitrification accurse with in the rock where anaerobic bacteria colonize. Adding a few pieces of live rock to your refug in not going to give you a big upgrade in denitrification. What you are doing in fact is diminishing the area of sand you have in the refug for colonization of nitrifying bacteria so it’s a trade off. If your purpose is to use your refug for denitrification I would go with a deeper sand bed and an algae that you can harvest such as caulerpa or Cheato. IMO you are getting the best bang out of the size of your refug for combating nitrates.
Again I say this with all due respect and just as food for thought
I certainly respect your opinion Joe....However, there are certain people in this hobby that I trust for certain things above others....Marc Leveson's opinions on sumps is one of those peoples opinion that I take above others, if he recommends a one inch sand bed, some LR and Chaeto as the most effective fuge.....That's good enough for me

 

[jake0110]

I have done a little measuring and a little planning around the insertable fuge that I saw.
It seems like I will need to move some gear around, and the only thing I will lose will be the filter bags under the overflows. I have read conflicting posts about their usefulness. Does anyone feel strongly that I should keep them and find a workaround?
A pic of my existing setup is above.
Here is my plan (The sharp black lines are immovable baffles with water flow at the base.):

What do you think?

 

[yearofthenick]

looks good, but where's the carbon and filter media? are you going without it?

 

[mr_x]

what is the "small pump" for?
i would do it the other way- i would not put the skimmer in the return area, because that's where you get your evaporation. for the skimmer to work correctly, it needs to be under a certain amount of water consistantly. an auto topoff will help with that. plus, i like the skimemr to pick up the water before it hits the refugium, to catch the bigger pieces of waste before they settle in the refugium.

 

[jake0110]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2702404
looks good, but where's the carbon and filter media? are you going without it?
I use drop in bags for carbon and change them once a month or so. I should be able to continue to find space for them
The filter media is trickier. Right now, the dual overflows are fixed to a piece of glass. It is difficult to see, but there are two filter bags hanging underneath the overflows. They are held up by a black plastic bio-ball box. (I don't use bio balls)
In order to construct the setup as planned, I will need to lose the filter bags. Not a great situation, but I am not sure how dangerous either.

 

[jake0110]

Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2702505
what is the "small pump" for?
i would do it the other way- i would not put the skimmer in the return area, because that's where you get your evaporation. for the skimmer to work correctly, it needs to be under a certain amount of water consistantly. an auto topoff will help with that. plus, i like the skimemr to pick up the water before it hits the refugium, to catch the bigger pieces of waste before they settle in the refugium.
The small pump will pump water into the first part of the refugium between the wall and the first baffle. The wall is about 10" high there, the baffle is about 9" and the overflow on the other side is about 8", so I need to get water between the outside wall and the baffle.
As far as skimmer placement goes, I am not sure how to accomplish that. In answer to yearofthenick's post, there is a glass piece that holds the overflows steady as water enters the tank.
I guess one way could be to reverse the flow of water in the sump.
The plan above flows left to right.
I could go right to left as follows:
Overflow area (contains uv pump, carbon bags)
Middle area (contains skimmer, return pump, small pump for fuge)
Refugium area, with water flowing over a baffle near the wall of the sump.
I think a big part of the problem is the fixed plastic baffle on the right side of the sump. Also, the overflows going into the piece of plate glass doesn't help.

 

[mr_x]

that's not going to work. you are still trying to synchronize 2 pumps. the 2 walls on either side should be the same height.

 

[jake0110]

I think it might work anyway because my drawing is inaccurate.
The fuge is an insert and lets water flow around it. So what will happen is the water all around the fuge will be at a lower level than the water in the fuge.
I will need to be careful to keep the sump filled above the depth of the pumps, but they will all be in one chamber. It's almost as if the fuge were going to hang separately above the entire sump setup.
I could even raise the fuge up a few inches by putting it on blocks or something. That would allow even more water flow around it.
What do you think?

 

[mr_x]

i think it's more complicated than it should be. i don't understand why you want slower flow. for pods to grow? they will grow no matter what the flow is. just put some rock rubble in the bottom of the refugium, and they will be fine. it's always worked for me.
i have a mag24 in my sump. the refugium gets the same flow as the rest of it. it's loaded with life.