New Research says fish feel pain
- Thread starter wrassecal
- Start date
stacyt
Active Member
Redcorsair,
To state that it's the Japanese, and from the way you stated it all Japanese, was incorrect, and what I take offense to. In general there are a lot of Asian countries that need to start some type of regulation. You are correct about what is happening over there. I would just appreciate you stating it in a different manner, rather than singling out a certain ethnicity and saying they all do this, and that it's just them. I know several responsable japanese fisherman over there that do not do this.
To state that it's the Japanese, and from the way you stated it all Japanese, was incorrect, and what I take offense to. In general there are a lot of Asian countries that need to start some type of regulation. You are correct about what is happening over there. I would just appreciate you stating it in a different manner, rather than singling out a certain ethnicity and saying they all do this, and that it's just them. I know several responsable japanese fisherman over there that do not do this.
wrassecal
Active Member
WOW! This thread went a different route than I expected. I posted this as it pertains to the hobby, some of the "supposedly factual" statements that have been made on this board lately in quite a few threads and the coginitive dissonance some of us have been feeling. What are we saying here?
If I'm a responsible fisherperson, within the rules and regulations, in stocked lakes with tank raised minnows and only catch what I can eat, then that is OK even though they feel pain.
And if I'm a responsible sw aquarist I'll buy aquacultured/tank raised, giving them the best possible conditions so they will thrive (no pain) and as a bonus save the reefs.
Then, if my tank is full of aquacultured/tank raised fish, I can go fishing in it an still be a responsible fisherperson and aquarist.
The logic doesn't really work for me, but I'm the first to admit I fish and buy aquacultured, no dissonance problems until I started thinking maybe I was inflicting pain on the fish I was catching while doing everything I could learn to keep from inflicting pain on the fish in my tank. So I posted the article not as it pertains to curing human disease, or PETA's stance on anything, but as it pertains to this hobby. My point is this; everything we do, we try to seek balance within ourselves. If based on our own continuing experience/research we can not live comfortably within our own minds unless our sps is under mh lighting then that's what it takes for us. If based on our own continuing experience/research we can live comfortably within our own minds that sps can thrive under VHO then that is fine too. If just starting out and beginning the experience/research, then advise from all is fine. We all have to seek and find our own balance through experience/research. Which brings me to the part about this bb. This is a place that people come to do some of that research, it's a community of aquarist with varying opinions, experience levels and results.
Since the first "responsible" thread started I've noticed a change in the tone of some members of this board, and IMO it has not been for the better. Debates are wonderful things, but if I was a newcomer to this board/hobby lately, I would have been afraid to post a newbie question. We have even resorted to referring to other people's threads and singling them out. No one is entirely right and no one is entirely wrong, except in their own mind, which is where only they have to live.
If I'm a responsible fisherperson, within the rules and regulations, in stocked lakes with tank raised minnows and only catch what I can eat, then that is OK even though they feel pain.
And if I'm a responsible sw aquarist I'll buy aquacultured/tank raised, giving them the best possible conditions so they will thrive (no pain) and as a bonus save the reefs.
Then, if my tank is full of aquacultured/tank raised fish, I can go fishing in it an still be a responsible fisherperson and aquarist.
The logic doesn't really work for me, but I'm the first to admit I fish and buy aquacultured, no dissonance problems until I started thinking maybe I was inflicting pain on the fish I was catching while doing everything I could learn to keep from inflicting pain on the fish in my tank. So I posted the article not as it pertains to curing human disease, or PETA's stance on anything, but as it pertains to this hobby. My point is this; everything we do, we try to seek balance within ourselves. If based on our own continuing experience/research we can not live comfortably within our own minds unless our sps is under mh lighting then that's what it takes for us. If based on our own continuing experience/research we can live comfortably within our own minds that sps can thrive under VHO then that is fine too. If just starting out and beginning the experience/research, then advise from all is fine. We all have to seek and find our own balance through experience/research. Which brings me to the part about this bb. This is a place that people come to do some of that research, it's a community of aquarist with varying opinions, experience levels and results.
Since the first "responsible" thread started I've noticed a change in the tone of some members of this board, and IMO it has not been for the better. Debates are wonderful things, but if I was a newcomer to this board/hobby lately, I would have been afraid to post a newbie question. We have even resorted to referring to other people's threads and singling them out. No one is entirely right and no one is entirely wrong, except in their own mind, which is where only they have to live.
fulcrum
Member
Originally posted by Melody
My objectivity is in tack...no worries there. I do know one of the reasons researchers pour chemicals into dogs & cats eyes is based on cosmetic reasons which is utterly ridiculous. It's Horrible~it's Brutal ~it's Sickening!!! All in the name of research. Can you justify that?? There are so many other things done in the name of research. When a lot of it boils down to torture. That is what I find intolerable. I know research is of vital importance, but come on some of it is totally unnecessary. That is my whole point here. Which you seem to be missing completely.
I am not uneducated nor am I poor. I have a college degree. Seems as though you were implying most people who posted in this thread was a bit ignorant or stupid. Do you know how condescending you sound? This will not turn into a shouting match as you put it. Makes me nauseous to even discuss animal cruelty. So I will bow out of this and leave it to the die hard radicals. I cannot stomach this topic.
Melody, I know you are bowing out, but I hope you get a chance to read this reply.
I didn't miss your point at all. If you read my post again you will see that I agreed with you that some animal testing yields little results, is cruel and not needed and I do not like when that happens. My point was that despite the abuses, I feel that the benefits are too great to disallow all animal testing.
I only referenced you, when you said ".....this poor uneducated girl..." I never indicated you were either poor or uneducated. Again, you are taking things personally that were never directed at you. This is clearly an emotional topic for you, and I understand why. I'm sorry if logical discourse comes across as cold or condescending, but I am not as emotional about this issue. I apologize if you think I was trying to make you look stupid. I was just debating facts.
I defintely think some ignorant things have been said on this thread, but I would never call anyone stupid. There is a huge difference between ignorance and stupidity. There is nothing wrong with ignorance, as long it is recognized, and remedied when possible. Ignorance is just a function of not being exposed to something. Stupidity is knowing something and espousing the opposite.
Finally, I put very little weight on a college degree. I know plenty of ignorant people who have them, and plenty of intelligent people who don't. Intelligence, openmindedness and a thrist for knowledge do not come with pieces of paper that hang on the wall.
rook
Member
Personally, I think that anything PETA does or says is a waste of time. They are a terrorist group. They set fires and bomb university research labs just to make a point. They are know to associate with major international terrorist organizations. Hopefully one day the NSA and FBI will final win there case against them and shut them down just like they are trying to do with the rest of the worlds terrorist.
Also,
Being a responsible aquarist does not mean that every living organism in our tanks needs to feel no pain. Comparing this hobby to fishing and wildlife recreation activies is not a valid arguement. How many of use feed live animals (brine shimp for example) into our tanks to feed the other animals. It is not be hypocritical, it is being a member of the planets food chain. If we are going to stop killing all life, should we also try to stop the rest of the animal world from doing the same?
Being a responsible aquarist means (to me) being responsible to the hobby, not necessarily to the animals. Otherwise we would not have tanks in the first place.
Its life, get over it.
Also,
Being a responsible aquarist does not mean that every living organism in our tanks needs to feel no pain. Comparing this hobby to fishing and wildlife recreation activies is not a valid arguement. How many of use feed live animals (brine shimp for example) into our tanks to feed the other animals. It is not be hypocritical, it is being a member of the planets food chain. If we are going to stop killing all life, should we also try to stop the rest of the animal world from doing the same?
Being a responsible aquarist means (to me) being responsible to the hobby, not necessarily to the animals. Otherwise we would not have tanks in the first place.
Its life, get over it.
david s
Member
Do fish feel pain Hell yea what a stupid study all they had to do is go swordfishing commercially one time as i have. want to see a pain factory I felt bad my first few trips. Yea Yea I know next I will go club a seal lol. I also saw a movie on discovery channle about most of the big white sharks are gone. I think shark fishing should be stoped. as far as japanese we are alowed 1 blufin tuna per trip ( 30 to 40 days ) and they have huge trawlers with frezers out there catching hunders of thousands of pounds needless to say if it does not stop bluefin will be exterminated. so if you say I am racist you beter find another shoulder to cry on.
I know this first hand from being there not from tv. as the US and 99% of the world try to conserve them. the japanese expliot all they can in intl waters like the grand banks off newfoundland.
oh yea and whale and shark are not marketed for sushi there is monk liver (angler fish) and fluke exported from us.
I know this first hand from being there not from tv. as the US and 99% of the world try to conserve them. the japanese expliot all they can in intl waters like the grand banks off newfoundland.
oh yea and whale and shark are not marketed for sushi there is monk liver (angler fish) and fluke exported from us.
tigerlover
Member
Originally posted by jboothiv
Do fish feel pain? Of course they do. EVERY living organism feels pain. From humans all the way down to the lowliest microbe.
Do we need to spend untold billions of dollars on research to determine whether other living things can feel pain? No. This is just useless torture. Anyone with common sense should realize that ANYTHING that is alive is capable of feeling pain
I couldn't agree with you more
naturelover
Member
Seems like everyone is trying to point out the research is done to help saving human pain. I have read through this in discovery.com. ( My favorite place). I haven't seen anywhere it says that research was done to help saving lifes. In the other hand I have seen disagreements on this.
Here is a research done by one and conclution by him saying fish don't feel pain.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...725683181.html
Which is to beleive ( every one use common sense). Do we really doing research on fish to help save lifes? heck no. One says fish don't feel pain, then the other one spent money and say fish do feel pain. weather fish feel pain or not, neither says research is done to help other lifes on earth.
Here is a research done by one and conclution by him saying fish don't feel pain.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...725683181.html
Which is to beleive ( every one use common sense). Do we really doing research on fish to help save lifes? heck no. One says fish don't feel pain, then the other one spent money and say fish do feel pain. weather fish feel pain or not, neither says research is done to help other lifes on earth.
tigerlover
Member
On that link it said that fish cannot feel pain or fear.
Fear is not a reaction to a situation, fear is based on one's ability to control it. If 2 men were in the same room in the same position, you would be more likely to scare one than both, for reasons of chance, one is less easily scared. Fear and pain go hand in hand because both need brain receptors, and, recent reaserch has proved fish have these, so why do you keep trying to say fish cannot feel pain?
I wish it were true that they don't feel pain, then I would feel more at ease when buying feeders for turtles, I wouldn't have to worry about my frogs getting sores on their bodies(amphibian, i know), I wouldn't have to worry about holding a live fish in my baby turtle's face because he can't catch them, I wish it were true, but its not, and I intend to treat them as well as I can because they DO have emotions and feel pain and fear
Fear is not a reaction to a situation, fear is based on one's ability to control it. If 2 men were in the same room in the same position, you would be more likely to scare one than both, for reasons of chance, one is less easily scared. Fear and pain go hand in hand because both need brain receptors, and, recent reaserch has proved fish have these, so why do you keep trying to say fish cannot feel pain?
I wish it were true that they don't feel pain, then I would feel more at ease when buying feeders for turtles, I wouldn't have to worry about my frogs getting sores on their bodies(amphibian, i know), I wouldn't have to worry about holding a live fish in my baby turtle's face because he can't catch them, I wish it were true, but its not, and I intend to treat them as well as I can because they DO have emotions and feel pain and fear
fulcrum
Member
Naturelover-
I think we are beating a dead horse (no pun intended), but I will say this one more time. Not every study in neurophysiology will state outright "this is to cure _______ in humans." The advances in neurophysiology help scientsists and physicians understand the building blocks of their field, and how they applies to humans. That research may not be used to directly save lives. It could be used 20 years from now to manage pain. It could be to develop new anesthesia. Not every journal article points out all ramifications of the research. They may be too grandiose to mention. But to assume that these studies are pointless is both naive and narrow minded. It is too hard to get funding for scientists to waste that money on frivolous experiments.
I think until we are able to ask a fish and get an answer back, we will never know for sure if fish feel pain. All we can do is gather information and gain a better understanding of how nervous systems function. These people are not just getting their jollies off hurting fish.
I think we are beating a dead horse (no pun intended), but I will say this one more time. Not every study in neurophysiology will state outright "this is to cure _______ in humans." The advances in neurophysiology help scientsists and physicians understand the building blocks of their field, and how they applies to humans. That research may not be used to directly save lives. It could be used 20 years from now to manage pain. It could be to develop new anesthesia. Not every journal article points out all ramifications of the research. They may be too grandiose to mention. But to assume that these studies are pointless is both naive and narrow minded. It is too hard to get funding for scientists to waste that money on frivolous experiments.
I think until we are able to ask a fish and get an answer back, we will never know for sure if fish feel pain. All we can do is gather information and gain a better understanding of how nervous systems function. These people are not just getting their jollies off hurting fish.
naturelover
Member
fulcrum: I do understand doing research and i do support them, like you said it might be used after 20 years, Aids has been in the world over 20yrs and there are no cure for it yet. Why not fund the money to find a cure for known disease. There are enough animals that are close to human nervesystem and the researches are being done on them already.
Ex. Lorenzo's Oil , Scientist wouldn't agree on, some say it helps and some say it don't. But the fact is who ever uses it lives longer. So why not do a better fund on it and do a research to make it better for everyone. Just that scientist don't know in what way it helps doesn't mean it doesn't help.
Like you said we are beating a dead horse, (stupid researches will continue) and i am out of it too.
Btw don't think I am animal activist or stupid PETA member. I have snakes that i feed live mice. So it's not about killing animal or animal feeling pain.
Ex. Lorenzo's Oil , Scientist wouldn't agree on, some say it helps and some say it don't. But the fact is who ever uses it lives longer. So why not do a better fund on it and do a research to make it better for everyone. Just that scientist don't know in what way it helps doesn't mean it doesn't help.
Like you said we are beating a dead horse, (stupid researches will continue) and i am out of it too.
Btw don't think I am animal activist or stupid PETA member.
I have snakes that i feed live mice. So it's not about killing animal or animal feeling pain.