Newbie is allllll confused!

tpnel

Member
And last where in ND are you?
I'm in Velva, just outside of Minot, ND. We have 3 LFS in Minot, 2 of which are TERRIBLE. I'm sure I'll be needing to roadtrip in order to get healthy fish!
Get a good marine master test kit.
I did order an API test kit, will that one work?
Thanks everyone for the great information!
 

meowzer

Moderator
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3239893
what The lovely lady means is if you have die off on your rock you may see an additional spike in ammonia if your cured rock come from a LFS close by you may not in fact have any die off
yeah
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Don't feel bad about being confused.
I've had a tank for a few years and perhaps you can help "unconfuse" me also.

There are many many different methods to maintain a saltwater tank. All of which have good and "bad" points.
I'll just pass along my idea for your consideration. To me the overarching thing is to first establish the plant life (macro algaes, corraling algae, and/or other algaes) to balance out and stabilize operations. Everything else IMHO is second to that basic concept.
for instance you are getting an ammonia spike. But with a refugium full of macro algaes, those algaes would consume the ammonia preventing or at least vastly reducing that ammonia spike. Even if there is not a single aerobic bacteria to consume that ammonia. Then the bacteria will build up and the plant life will get more and more of its nitrogen from nitrates.
But that's just this old air force guy's idea.
worth at most .02
 

tpnel

Member
I'll just pass along my idea for your consideration. To me the overarching thing is to first establish the plant life (macro algaes, corraling algae, and/or other algaes) to balance out and stabilize operations. Everything else IMHO is second to that basic concept.
for instance you are getting an ammonia spike. But with a refugium full of macro algaes, those algaes would consume the ammonia preventing or at least vastly reducing that ammonia spike. Even if there is not a single aerobic bacteria to consume that ammonia. Then the bacteria will build up and the plant life will get more and more of its nitrogen from nitrates.
But that's just this old air force guy's idea.
I understand the general concept of having macro algaes in a refugium since I have a few planted freshwater tanks, but using a refugium kinda scares me! I've never seen one in person and no matter how much I read online I learn alot better "hands on". I'm sure it won't be long before I get brave enough to set one up.
also... my husband is active air force
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
VERY IMPORTANT! Choose your favorite fish that can be kept in your size tank, it will dictate everything else you will be able to put in the tank later
I disagree make your fish list and then research which of those fish is the least aggressive and add that fish first, if that is what you mean i agree
for instance you are getting an ammonia spike. But with a refugium full of macro algaes, those algaes would consume the ammonia preventing or at least vastly reducing that ammonia spike
I do not understand this, macros will in fact assimilate nitrates and phosphates but i do not think they will not do anything for ammonia toxicity
Coraline algae will grow no matter what. Time…it all takes lots of time
You need to have Coraline introduced into your tank for it to grown on other things it will not just appear
As long as your dry live rock was not put in freshwater it is still live rock. Tiny critters lay eggs that go dormant
can you post some more documentation on this
 

ibanez

Member
I recall from my time in planted freshwater tanks, that they do use ammonia before it is converted in addition to nitrate for growth. Here are two quick results for my search, I will search more further when I have the time.
Nitrogen is an element needed by all living plants and animals to build protein. In aquatic ecosystems, nitrogen is present in many forms.
Nitrogen is a much more abundant nutrient than phosphorus in nature. It is most commonly found in its molecular form (N2), which makes up 79 percent of the air we breathe. This form, however is useless for most aquatic plant growth.
Blue-green algae, the primary algae of algal blooms, are able to use N2 and convert it into forms of nitrogen that plants can take up through their roots and use for growth: ammonia (NH3) and nitrate (NO-3).
As aquatic plants and animals die, bacteria break down large protein molecules into ammonia. Ammonia is then oxidized (combined with oxygen) by specialized bacteria to form nitrites (NO-2) and nitrates (NO-3). These bacteria get energy for metabolism from oxidation.
Excretions of aquatic organisms are very rich in ammonia, although the amount of nitrogen they add to waters is usually small.
There even exist bacteria that can transform nitrates (NO-3) into free molecular nitrogen (N2). The nitrogen cycle begins again if this molecular nitrogen is converted by blue-green algae into ammonia and nitrates.
Because nitrogen, in the form of ammonia and nitrates, acts as a plan nutrient, it also causes eutrophication. Eutrophication promotes more plant growth and decay, which in turn increases biochemical oxygen demand. However, unlike phosphorus, nitrogen rarely limits plant growth, so plants are not as sensitive to increases in ammonia and nitrate levels.
Also...
Plants prefer low levels of NH4 and they all definitely use NH4.
While high levels of NH4 can burn and harm plants, such levels are never reached in our tanks, our fish would die long before that.
NO3 is "preferred" in the ranges that are common in our aquariums.
At about 0.5 ppm NH4 or higher to about 2-4 ppm NH4, plants will take up more NH4 than NH3 for a given rate, at about 1ppm of NH4.
But our tanks typically have less than 0.1ppm of NH4 and plants take this up directly or the bacteria get it in fish only tanks, and a little bit in planted tanks. At this ppm range, the rate of uptake for NH4 is very slow, but very high for NO3 when the NO3 is 10ppm etc.
Plants will take up a much larger fraction of their N from NO3 and folks dose this in KNO3 form typically for plants if the NO3's run low.
So plants use both forms of N: NH4 and N03.
Although they are referring to fresh water plants, I am sure the same should apply for salt water plants.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by IbanEz
http:///forum/post/3240002
I recall from my time in planted freshwater tanks, that they do use ammonia before it is converted in addition to nitrate for growth. Here are two quick results for my search, I will search more further when I have the time.
Nitrogen is an element needed by all living plants and animals to build protein. In aquatic ecosystems, nitrogen is present in many forms.
Nitrogen is a much more abundant nutrient than phosphorus in nature. It is most commonly found in its molecular form (N2), which makes up 79 percent of the air we breathe. This form, however is useless for most aquatic plant growth.
Blue-green algae, the primary algae of algal blooms, are able to use N2 and convert it into forms of nitrogen that plants can take up through their roots and use for growth: ammonia (NH3) and nitrate (NO-3).
As aquatic plants and animals die, bacteria break down large protein molecules into ammonia. Ammonia is then oxidized (combined with oxygen) by specialized bacteria to form nitrites (NO-2) and nitrates (NO-3). These bacteria get energy for metabolism from oxidation.
Excretions of aquatic organisms are very rich in ammonia, although the amount of nitrogen they add to waters is usually small.
There even exist bacteria that can transform nitrates (NO-3) into free molecular nitrogen (N2). The nitrogen cycle begins again if this molecular nitrogen is converted by blue-green algae into ammonia and nitrates.
Because nitrogen, in the form of ammonia and nitrates, acts as a plan nutrient, it also causes eutrophication. Eutrophication promotes more plant growth and decay, which in turn increases biochemical oxygen demand. However, unlike phosphorus, nitrogen rarely limits plant growth, so plants are not as sensitive to increases in ammonia and nitrate levels.
Also...
Plants prefer low levels of NH4 and they all definitely use NH4.
While high levels of NH4 can burn and harm plants, such levels are never reached in our tanks, our fish would die long before that.
NO3 is "preferred" in the ranges that are common in our aquariums.
At about 0.5 ppm NH4 or higher to about 2-4 ppm NH4, plants will take up more NH4 than NH3 for a given rate, at about 1ppm of NH4.
But our tanks typically have less than 0.1ppm of NH4 and plants take this up directly or the bacteria get it in fish only tanks, and a little bit in planted tanks. At this ppm range, the rate of uptake for NH4 is very slow, but very high for NO3 when the NO3 is 10ppm etc.
Plants will take up a much larger fraction of their N from NO3 and folks dose this in KNO3 form typically for plants if the NO3's run low.
So plants use both forms of N: NH4 and N03.
Although they are referring to fresh water plants, I am sure the same should apply for salt water plants.
The only vegetation I know of in the marine environment that MAY assimilate ammonium nitrogen is nitzschia closterium which is a phytoplankton. in any event why would the hobbyist want to remove the ammonia before they has a good colonization of bio filtration established
 

ibanez

Member
Good point. I doubt the amount it would remove would be material. In other words, I wouldn't use it to remove ammonia, but it may in fact remove some.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by tpnel
http:///forum/post/3239982
I understand the general concept of having macro algaes in a refugium since I have a few planted freshwater tanks, but using a refugium kinda scares me! I've never seen one in person and no matter how much I read online I learn alot better "hands on". I'm sure it won't be long before I get brave enough to set one up.
Do it!!!!!
Do it!!!!!!!
oh yea
Do it!!!!!!

I understand your concerns completely as I setup an external refugium/sump on my 55g and had 3 floods before I got it figured out.
But a refugium is just a protected area for macros just like a wildlife refuge protects wildlife from humans.
So I took a 1/4 square grid lighting diffuser (egg crate) crammed it in my 55g about 3" in front of the rear glass and added 2 2 tube 4' utility fixtures about 6' behind the tank pointing forward. The lights lite up the area between the egg crate and glass so macro alges thrived. As did pods. Plus my two tangs could graze on the macros that poked through all day. My nitrates dropped from over 80ppm (api test kit) to unmeasureable in about three weeks. phosphates later dropped to unmeasureable levels.
So all you need to do is just partition the tank or make some kind of container to protect the macros. The result is very very similiar to a fully planted fw tank.
also... my husband is active air force

I was wondering. I retired in 1992.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
florida joe;3239994 said:
I disagree make your fish list and then research which of those fish is the least aggressive and add that fish first, if that is what you mean i agree
I do not understand this, macros will in fact assimilate nitrates and phosphates but i do not think they will not do anything for ammonia toxicity
You need to have Coraline introduced into your tank for it to grown on other things it will not just appear can you post some more documentation on this

Florida joe:
Live rock has stuff on it. It may look dead, but submerged in water again after a month or two, stuff grows. Unless you put it in freshwater, boil it or bleach it. I watched a nature show, I'm a pretty sure that is where the idea came from. It was a very long time ago.
One example was a small creek, it dried up but as soon as the rains came the life sprouted anew. Tiny critters lived and flourished.
As for coraline...Every piece of live rock has some on it, even corals that are on little rocks has it. If you have live rock it will be introduced into the system and it will grow over time.
If you choose a non reef safe fish, it dictates that you can’t have coral. Each addition added to the tank must get along with what is in there already. Some fish you can’t have snails or hermit crabs with.
So I advise to pick a favorite fish, make sure it can live in your size tank…a shark can never go in a 26g for example. That choice will dictate what else to add.
It won’t do any good to love a Royal Gramma and want one, if you already have another type of dottyback, they will fight to the death. So if you LOVE and want a Royal Gramma, it will dictate what else can go in..
One person I remember tried to keep a whole tank full of different sets of clownfish, in a small tank no less.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
IBANEz and Florida-Joe.
I think IBANEZ is right on with the planted tank analogy.
plant do consume ammonia directly and in vary large amounts.
They actually use less energy to consume ammonia vrs nitrates. And, therefore, prefer to consume ammonia before nitrates. In fact in my experience you will get an initial nitrate spike or a nitrate spike when increasing the bioload (new fish over feeding etc etc). But if you start the tank "heavily" planted (or algaed?) you will get no measurable ammonia spike and only a just barely measureable short lived nitrIte spike. Like the lowest possible reading for only a day.
then pH will rise as the plant life sucks out the carbon dioxide.
And finally nitrates will drop usually about 3 weeks later.
So macro algaes (and algae on live rock or in algae truf scrubbers) consume great amounts of ammonia when they are present before they consume any nitrates. Then as the aerobic bacteria build up the algaes are forced to consume the nitrates for their nitrogen.
And it does not take very much to see these efects. Even just a handfull of chaeto can make a large difference. I just prefer to add enough to insure the tank is balanced out.
my .02
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by beaslbob
http:///forum/post/3240010
Do it!!!!!
Do it!!!!!!!
oh yea
Do it!!!!!!

I understand you concerns completely as I setup an external refugium/sump on my 55g and had 3 floods before I got it figured out.
But a refugium is just a protected area for macros just like a wildlife refuge protects wildlife from humans.
So I took a 1/4 square grid lighting diffuser (egg crate) crammed it in my 55g about 3" in front of the rear glass and added 2 2 tube 4' utility fixtures about 6' behind the tank pointing forward. The lights lite up the area between the egg crate and glass so macro alges thrived. As did pods. Plus my two tangs could graze on the macros that poked through all day. My nitrates dropped from over 80ppm (api test kit) to unmeasureable in about three weeks. phosphates later dropped to unmeasureable levels.
So all you need to do is just partition the tank or make some kind of container to protect the macros. The result is very very similiar to a fully planted fw tank.I was wondering. I retired in 1992.

Not trying to highjack the thread but...is there any danger of the macro algae going asexual and clouding up the tank using your method? I have been afraid to add macro algae because of this.
I could adapt this to my system, and really need to know. An in tank refugium...what a great concept.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by IbanEz
http:///forum/post/3240026
Now that was worth a dollar to me.

inflation.

Have you evered measured ammonia/nitrItes/nitrate/ph during a planted tank cycle? I never did until recently. The parameters are amazing and completely different from the aerobic bacterial ammonia->nitrIte->nitrate spikes.
I just set up a planted tank in '79 had no problems and did it ever since. It just works.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3240027

Not trying to highjack the thread but...is there any danger of the macro algae going asexual and clouding up the tank using your method? I have been afraid to add macro algae because of this.
I could adapt this to my system, and really need to know. An in tank refugium...what a great concept.
Yes macros can sporate or go sexual. and it does cloud up a tank.
I have that happen also. but only once with macros I received that had been in shipping for 4 days in the summer heat. They were also introduced to a system with 0 nitrates. I killed the lights and the tank cleared up in two weeks.
But that is the various caulerpas and has only happend once to me. Gracillarias, chaetomorphia (brillo pad) do not have that problem.
The balancing out and stabilizing the tank to the point where ammonia cycles are prevented far outstip the going sexual danger especially for a tank that has just been setup.
Here is an old thread on my in tank refugium minus the pictures from long ago:
(not much to read just to show how old this thing is)
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/vb/s...d.php?t=101556
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
One example was a small creek, it dried up but as soon as the rains came the life sprouted anew. Tiny critters lived and flourished.
you are taking about fresh or brackish water here not water with a salt content that we use
As for coraline...Every piece of live rock has some on
this is absolutely not true. with all due respect refresh your knowledge of what live rock represents
 

tpnel

Member
I understand your concerns completely as I setup an external refugium/sump on my 55g and had 3 floods before I got it figured out.
AHHHHHH! that's exactly what scares me! After doing a little looking online I think I'll probably start off with an in tank refugium.
I did get some LR from the LFS yesterday, so I'm now seeded! I didn't see any hitchhikers as of yet. I'll be patiently waiting for the tank to cycle.
I did spot some scooter blennies, mandarin dragonet, and firefish gobies at the LFS. I know I need a refugium and a more established tank for the mandarin but would these fish all be compatible to have down the road?
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
AHHHHHH! that's exactly what scares me!
if you are talking about overflowing your sump, there is absolutely not reason for it if you follow some simple steps in the set up
 
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