Newby question.

locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
HI there,
Originally Posted by Cleve_seahorse
http:///forum/post/2912825
Actually , it occurred after the cycle was over(Not sure I understand this)....no amm , no trites , 10 on trates but a slightly lower ph...7.6-7.9....after an extensive research I realised it was nitrogen gas(what lead you to conclude this?)....I got a test for dissolved oxygen(I think this is a test to measure water quality, not sure if it measures the level of nitrogen gas in the water column. Curious to how you did this, did you take it to a water plant or how did you do this test?)) and determined my problem and haven't had an issue since... I wish I had known what I do now....
Just a warning to those that see " smoke" at the top of the tank....it's not bacterial.. it's even worse....run more airlines
Huh, how long had your tank been set up and running when you tested for nitrogen gas?
From my understanding "dissolved oxygen" is not the samething as "nitrogen gas", or am I wrong?
 
cleve_seahorse

cleve_seahorse

Member
The tank was set up and cycling mid oct. 2 years ago....discovered the problem around mid dec....did a test right after x-mas....so roughly 8 weeks in..amm , trites were 0 , trates 10 , ph lowwwww like 7.6-7.9 which led me to investigate
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
From you statement cleve you determined that your problem was lack of DO not a build up of nitrogen gas. This gas is released into the atmosphere from the aquarium.
Quote
"The addition of organic matter through feeding or live organisms is not the only way for nitrogen to enter the aquarium. Nitrogen gas (N2) makes up nearly 80% of the Earth's atmosphere. Nitrogen gas is only half as soluble in water as oxygen, but as there is four times as much nitrogen as oxygen in the atmosphere, there is usually twice as much nitrogen dissolved in aquarium water. Despite the large amounts of dissolved nitrogen in the water, it is largely unavailable to most organisms in the aquarium. An exception to this are specialized groups of prokaryotes (bacteria).
Some bacteria, including most representatives of cyanobacteria, are able to take up nitrogen (N2) directly from their environment, break apart the N-N bonds and fix the nitrogen into ammonia which can then be used for biological processes. This basically means that many cyanobacteria can survive and thrive in the absence of inorganic nitrogen compounds."
It would seem to me that the lack of DO in your tank allowed a build of Co2 and a resulting problem with Ph.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Hi there,
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2912859
From you statement cleve you determined that your problem was lack of DO not a build up of nitrogen gas. This gas is released into the atmosphere from the aquarium.
Quote
"The addition of organic matter through feeding or live organisms is not the only way for nitrogen to enter the aquarium. Nitrogen gas (N2) makes up nearly 80% of the Earth's atmosphere. Nitrogen gas is only half as soluble in water as oxygen, but as there is four times as much nitrogen as oxygen in the atmosphere, there is usually twice as much nitrogen dissolved in aquarium water. Despite the large amounts of dissolved nitrogen in the water, it is largely unavailable to most organisms in the aquarium. An exception to this are specialized groups of prokaryotes (bacteria).
Some bacteria, including most representatives of cyanobacteria, are able to take up nitrogen (N2) directly from their environment, break apart the N-N bonds and fix the nitrogen into ammonia which can then be used for biological processes. This basically means that many cyanobacteria can survive and thrive in the absence of inorganic nitrogen compounds."
It would seem to me that the lack of DO in your tank allowed a build of Co2 and a resulting problem with Ph.
True.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
If I understand the cycles correctly, nitrogen gas occurs during the denitrification process.
Originally Posted by Cleve_seahorse
http:///forum/post/2912860
From my understanding nirtogen gas destroys free oxygen thus creating the problem
You nentioned that your tank has (assuming it is still up and running) been running for over 2 years now, right? I wonder if this is enough time to develope the denitrification process?
Well I guess this could be so, depending on your setup. I am making the assumption that LR is the only media for the denitrification to occur (no DSB or other places where there is really low or no oxygen).
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
That may be true in the atmosphere, I am not sure of that, but by the statment above "Nitrogen gas is only half as soluble in water as oxygen". It seems to me I have read that the time that nitrogen gas would become a problem in our tank is if it released in a large quantity like the stirring of a DSB where the nitrogen gas was not allowed to escape more normally. Otherwise the nitrogen released from the normal denitrification of the anaerobic zones in our rockwork is in such small amounts it is release to the atmosphere on a regular basis and does not "build up" on the surface of the water. What will build up in the water is CO2 if there is not adequate gas exchange by surface agitation. The gas exchange is CO2 out, Oxygen in.
Again I believe your problem was not Nitrogen gas buildup, but CO2 buildup from improper gas exchange at the surface of the water.
 
cleve_seahorse

cleve_seahorse

Member
yes and all is right with the world.... sorry , not a scientist....just giving my 2 cents and my brothers [ who is a scientist for lucas county,oh ]
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Not a scientist here but would like to get his take on what we have discussed here. It is a good discussion between us and any other looks at what we are taking about would always be welcome. Maybe you could show him this thread and get his opinions on things too?
 
cleve_seahorse

cleve_seahorse

Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2912895
Not a scientist here but would like to get his take on what we have discussed here. It is a good discussion between us and any other looks at what we are taking about would always be welcome. Maybe you could show him this thread and get his opinions on things too?
I'm going to email him and hope that he saved all the water tests he did 2 years ago...I'm sure he did if I know my bro
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Hi there gain,
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2912874
That may be true in the atmosphere, I am not sure of that, but by the statment above "Nitrogen gas is only half as soluble in water as oxygen". (I need to look more into this, not really sure how it works out.) It seems to me I have read that the time that nitrogen gas would become a problem in our tank is if it released in a large quantity like the stirring of a DSB where the nitrogen gas was not allowed to escape more normally. Otherwise the nitrogen released from the normal denitrification of the anaerobic zones in our rockwork is in such small amounts it is release to the atmosphere on a regular basis and does not "build up" on the surface of the water. What will build up in the water is CO2 if there is not adequate gas exchange by surface agitation. The gas exchange is CO2 out, Oxygen in.
Again I believe your problem was not Nitrogen gas buildup, but CO2 buildup from improper gas exchange at the surface of the water.
 
robertmathern

robertmathern

Active Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2912874
That may be true in the atmosphere, I am not sure of that, but by the statment above "Nitrogen gas is only half as soluble in water as oxygen". It seems to me I have read that the time that nitrogen gas would become a problem in our tank is if it released in a large quantity like the stirring of a DSB where the nitrogen gas was not allowed to escape more normally. Otherwise the nitrogen released from the normal denitrification of the anaerobic zones in our rockwork is in such small amounts it is release to the atmosphere on a regular basis and does not "build up" on the surface of the water. What will build up in the water is CO2 if there is not adequate gas exchange by surface agitation. The gas exchange is CO2 out, Oxygen in.
Again I believe your problem was not Nitrogen gas buildup, but CO2 buildup from improper gas exchange at the surface of the water.
Wow I learned something.
 
natclanwy

natclanwy

Active Member
I agree cleve's problem was due to excess CO2 not nitrogen gas, dissolved nitrogen won't effect the PH of the water where CO2 will. In stabilized saltwater the percentages of Nitrogen, Oxygen and CO2 will be the the same as air, 78%, 20.9%, and 0.033% respectively. As far a solubility is concerned though like spanko said nitrogen is half as soluble as oxygen, but CO2 is 1000 times more soluble than nitrogen or oxygen. In other words you can't really build up a significant amount of nitrogen or oxygen in saltwater over what is naturally present or at least not enough to be dangerous especially nitrogen since it is an inert gas. CO2 on the other hand readily dissolves into saltwater displacing oxygen and nitrogen and since CO2 is a reactive gas it forms carbonic acid in your tank lowering the PH.
As far as gases release from stirring a DSB I believe it is Hydrogen sulfide gas that is released from the sand bed which is formed when the denitrifying bacteria run out of nitrate while there is still decomposing organic matter and then some bacteria can use sulfate to metabolize organic matter and H2S is the byproduct. H2S is extremely toxic to your livestock and can cause mass die off if large quantities are released into your aquarium at once.
To get back to Locos topic,
Rock that is more porous or less dense has much more surface area than a dense rock will, and the pores do not necessarily need to be large they could be microscopic in size so even a piece of live rock that doesn't appear to have holes is usually covered in thousands of microscopic pores that water can diffuse through. Its through diffusion (diffusion isn't exactly the right word but I can't remember what the correct term is) that water is able to move deep inside the rock to anoxic areas of the rock where denitrification can occur. It is a similar process in a DSB but denser sand will form more anoxic areas then less dense sand allowing the sand bed to be shallower. In other words hypothetically lets say it takes 12" of crushed coral to form anoxic areas for denitration to occur, it would take maybe 3-4" of sugar sand to achieve the same amount of anoxic areas.
The outer surfaces of the LR is where the Nitrifying bacteria will reside and porous rock makes the surface of the rock more ruff increasing the surface area for bacteria to populate. For a comparison 1 square inch of rock probably has 100x the surface area of 1 square inch of glass so the rock has the ability to support 100x more bacteria than the glass.
 
ilovemytank

ilovemytank

Member
This is actually a very beneficial and interesting thrread with some real good points. I have two questions though for different members .
!. for loco ; How do you do that response after a statement in a quote that comes out in red ? I've seen other memebers do it but don't have a clue on how its done ?
2. for natclanwy ; On one of your fist reponses in this thread you made the comment that live rock in a sump doesn't reduce nitrates as mcuh because not the same amount of anerobic bacteria ( forgive me if I didn't quote it exactly as you said it ) why would that be ? I'm not questioning you because there were alot of statements made in this thread that I didn't know about live rock. I always thought that with live rock in DT or sump would have the same surface space for growing bacteria. I know the lights in the DT give a benefit for more bacteria but its the same water source hooked up all together. I replaced my bio balls with live rock rubble ( I have a refugium too ). Please teach me on this one.
 
natclanwy

natclanwy

Active Member
Originally Posted by Ilovemytank
http:///forum/post/2913238
This is actually a very beneficial and interesting thrread with some real good points. I have two questions though for different members .
!. for loco ; How do you do that response after a statement in a quote that comes out in red ? I've seen other memebers do it but don't have a clue on how its done ?
When you post look at the toolbar at the top there is the letter "A" if you click the arrow next to it you can select a different color
2. for natclanwy ; On one of your fist reponses in this thread you made the comment that live rock in a sump doesn't reduce nitrates as mcuh because not the same amount of anerobic bacteria ( forgive me if I didn't quote it exactly as you said it ) why would that be ? I'm not questioning you because there were alot of statements made in this thread that I didn't know about live rock. I always thought that with live rock in DT or sump would have the same surface space for growing bacteria. I know the lights in the DT give a benefit for more bacteria but its the same water source hooked up all together. I replaced my bio balls with live rock rubble ( I have a refugium too ). Please teach me on this one.
If you are using full size pieces of LR it would have the same nitrate reduction capacity as LR in the DT, but most people use rubble in their sumps and because it is broke up into smaller pieces I believe there are less anoxic zones in rubble verses an equal amount of whole LR and its these anoxic areas that anerobic bacteria live. Nitrifying bacteria populate the outer aerobic portion of the LR so in that case rubble probably has more surface area than whole LR and has the ability to support more nitrifying bacteria.
Actually lights play no direct role in the formation of nitrifying or denitrifying bacteria.
 
ilovemytank

ilovemytank

Member
Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2913285
If you are using full size pieces of LR it would have the same nitrate reduction capacity as LR in the DT, but most people use rubble in their sumps and because it is broke up into smaller pieces I believe there are less anoxic zones in rubble verses an equal amount of whole LR and its these anoxic areas that anerobic bacteria live. Nitrifying bacteria populate the outer aerobic portion of the LR so in that case rubble probably has more surface area than whole LR and has the ability to support more nitrifying bacteria.
Thanks Thanks ! I learned alot from that.
Actually lights play no direct role in the formation of nitrifying or denitrifying bacteria.
Why does it not let me reply !!!1
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Hi there cleve,
Originally Posted by Cleve_seahorse
http:///forum/post/2912898
And that's kinda rude....I will never again respond to one of your posts again
My sincere apologies, did not mean anything by this comment.
The intent was for all of us to comment and correct each as we all often are wrong. In this hobby there are no absolute truths. If you catch me saying something wrong or something that does not make sence, by all means question it. I love to learn as much from evryone here about this hobby as I can.
I beleive we all are learning from each other and I hope we all continue learnin. Once again my apologies.
P.S. I learn from everyone as much as I can, and I would like to share what I learn with everyone.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Hi there,
Originally Posted by Ilovemytank
http:///forum/post/2913238
This is actually a very beneficial and interesting thrread with some real good points. I have two questions though for different members .
!. for loco ; How do you do that response after a statement in a quote that comes out in red ? I've seen other memebers do it but don't have a clue on how its done ?
In the box where you write the text, if you look at the top of that box there is a capitol letter A with a wide black line under it. Click on it and you can select the color you want. High lite what you want to change the color to and there you have it.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Hi there,
Originally Posted by Cleve_seahorse
http:///forum/post/2912882
yes and all is right with the world.... sorry , not a scientist....just giving my 2 cents and my brothers [ who is a scientist for lucas county,oh ]
Sorry but you are WRONG!, you/we are a scientist/s;
"A scientist, in the broadest sense, refers to any person that engages in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge or an individual that engages in such practices and traditions that are linked to schools of thought or philosophy"
you/we do engage in systematic activity
you/we do acquire knowledge
you/we do engage in such practices
and you/us discusing it here is linked to school of thought or philosophy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top