NFL thoughts

[scubadoo]

One final question I forgot...name the three things Tom Landry introduced as an inoovator. Tom Landry is considered to be an innovator and I agree...name three things he did at Dallas as an innovator...at the time no one else was doing this in football and/or it was not an emphasis for other teams. Again, I'll give you all day Mr Diehard.

 

[scubadoo]

Darn..I just thought of another question..Dallas lodged a complaint against a record breaking performance in the NFL. name the team, event and player the protest was lodged against.

 

[darth tang]

You are so quick to bring up playoff wins but you didn't say they also have more losses than the top teams.
This is an asinie statement. Ok, They have more losses than the saints, so obviously the Saints must be a better overall football team than the Cowboys historically. The also haven't ever lost a Super bowl, therefore the Saints are better than the cowboys because the Cowboys have lost 3 Super Bowls. Not knocking the Saints, just proving a point.
Ok, I will give an example of a flaw in your percentage theory. Walter Payton argueably the best running back of all-time. Yet he only had a 4.4 Yard per carry average. Three seasons he didn't even break 4 yards per carry. Fred Taylor has a life timke yard per carry average of 4.6 with only one season under 4 YPC. So by your estimation and rulings, Fred Taylor would be better than Walter Payton.
Marcus Allen only average 4.1 Yards per carry and had 7 seasons without breaking 4.0 YPC and he is regarded as one of the greatests of all time.......Yet Fred Taylor has a better average and percentage than him as well.
Using your Law of percentages can you honestly tell me you believe Fred Taylor to be a better running back than Walter Payton or Marcus Allen?
I will add this, I may be a Cowboys fan but I have to say Brett Favre and Barry Sanders have to be the two greatest of all-time when it comes to total NFL. The way they carry themselves on and off the field........

 

[scubanoah]

Doesnt get much better than Favre and Sanders. If Indianapolis gets homefield throughout the playoffs and w/the superbowl being indoors, I think the Colts could win it all. The Pats are still gonna be tough though.

 

[darth tang]

Name the two events which directly contributed to the siuccess of Dallas in the 90's.
The trading of Hershel Walker for Minnesota draft picks. The ability to have a rotating defensive line with a total of 6 starter worthy players.
Name the defense Dallas ran under Tom Landry..I am looking for the football teminology..not a nickname.
Well he helped create the 4-3 that is now used in todays NFL regularly and he also created the "Flex" defense which is a variation of the 4-3.
The flex defense was primarilly created to use against heavy running teams. 4 men up front back up by three men behind all geared to stopping the running back. If you held them then on 2nd and third down you could blitz the linebackers as well as rush all out with the front four.
name the three things Tom Landry introduced as an inoovator.
Motion Offense, flex defense/4-3, and he brought back the shotgun formation and used it perfectly.

 

[knots]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
This is an asinie statement. Ok, They have more losses than the saints, so obviously the Saints must be a better overall football team than the Cowboys historically. The also haven't ever lost a Super bowl, therefore the Saints are better than the cowboys because the Cowboys have lost 3 Super Bowls. Not knocking the Saints, just proving a point.
Ok, I will give an example of a flaw in your percentage theory. Walter Payton argueably the best running back of all-time. Yet he only had a 4.4 Yard per carry average. Three seasons he didn't even break 4 yards per carry. Fred Taylor has a life timke yard per carry average of 4.6 with only one season under 4 YPC. So by your estimation and rulings, Fred Taylor would be better than Walter Payton.
Marcus Allen only average 4.1 Yards per carry and had 7 seasons without breaking 4.0 YPC and he is regarded as one of the greatests of all time.......Yet Fred Taylor has a better average and percentage than him as well.
Using your Law of percentages can you honestly tell me you believe Fred Taylor to be a better running back than Walter Payton or Marcus Allen?
I will add this, I may be a Cowboys fan but I have to say Brett Favre and Barry Sanders have to be the two greatest of all-time when it comes to total NFL. The way they carry themselves on and off the field........

Darth, If you would have paid any attention at all you would have seen that I only included the top teams that have been in multiple super bowls and playoffs. I completely agree with your Payton and Taylor example. But you need to notice I left out teams that only played in one super and won because that is not right to compare a one time winner with Dallas or anyone else. Percentages are very important but there has to be multiple games.
So, sorry Darth the only point you proved is that you don't really pay attention. Another typical Cowboys fan.

 

[darth tang]

I saw that. I included players that played atleast 2 full NFL season. The equivalent to your comparison of teams winning 2 super bowls. Hell I could have found guys with only one season or one carry and blew the YPC percentage out the door and made Payton and Allen look like Chumps using your percentage rule.
As a whole you have to look at times gone. Do you not count the Bills in the 90's as one of the greatests dynasties? They made it 4 times in a row...lost all three times, but still.....so are they not qualified as a great dynasty....one of the greatests?
For the last 3 years everyone (experts) rank the Eagles as the best NFC team. But wait...out of the last three years how many times have they won the big dance? Yet the are considered the best team in the NFC each year before the start of the season? Why? They didn't win the Super Bowl? Oh yeah, because the have been to more championships (NFC) than any other team in the last five years.....
I would respond to your cowboys fan comment but why? I thrashed your logic and used your own statiostical analysis to prove the flaw in your theory.So no need to say anything further.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
The trading of Hershel Walker for Minnesota draft picks. The ability to have a rotating defensive line with a total of 6 starter worthy players.
Well he helped create the 4-3 that is now used in todays NFL regularly and he also created the "Flex" defense which is a variation of the 4-3.
The flex defense was primarilly created to use against heavy running teams. 4 men up front back up by three men behind all geared to stopping the running back. If you held them then on 2nd and third down you could blitz the linebackers as well as rush all out with the front four.
Motion Offense, flex defense/4-3, and he brought back the shotgun formation and used it perfectly.
You are almost correct...the tow event..you have one out of the two...it was the trading of Hershel Walker..and also Steve Walsh for which they receive a number one, two and three pick.
You are almost correct regarding the three innovations attributed to landry...you got two of the three...the one you missed is strnght coaching...he was the first to emphasize this full-time..although the motion offense was certainly attributed to him...but the strength coaching was the answer I was looking for from Schubert.
Your football analysis regarding the flex is again almost correct. The flex defense pertains to the front 4 lineman. One lineman would line up one yard or less from the line of scrimmage...the next player would line-up 1.5-two yards from the line of scrimmage. This would help force running plays back against itself. It was solely designed to stop Paul Brown's offense...it was so successfull in stopping the running game for years...as it was uncoventional...and allowed linemen to pusrue and force plays. Blitzing was also part of it. The allignment of the front four is where the name comes from.....but you did not include this in your anlysis of how the defense works.
You obviously know your footbal Darth....more so than Mr Diehard Schubert. Mr Die Hard asked for brain teasers...so I gave him some...I was waiting for him to answer...but doubt he could from his own knowledge of the game.....he probably would have cheated.
Do you know the answer to the protest question?

 

[darth tang]

Steve Walsh for which they receive a number one, two and three pick.
Steve Walsh trade was a couple years after they had drafted him in the Supplemental draft and they had seen Aikman was going to do just fine, if I remember right. And the draft picks they used in return for Walsh were for the Defensive end of the ball. Come on, give me half credit.
I don't remember the answer to your last question....give me a time era?

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
Steve Walsh trade was a couple years after they had drafted him in the Supplemental draft and they had seen Aikman was going to do just fine, if I remember right. And the draft picks they used in return for Walsh were for the Defensive end of the ball. Come on, give me half credit.
I don't remember the answer to your last question....give me a time era?
I did...you know your football...the time era was late 60's. Tex Schramm (spell) a great football man led a drive to strip a record from a player. It was quickly dismissed as baseless and he mustered little support. The owner of the team he sought to strip the record from was from Texas which I suspect is the reason for the complaint....some rivalry between professionals I guess.
IMO..it reamins a blemish on a great football person and a hall of famer. It received little play in the media...but did surface briefly.
The team was located not far from Dallas and the protest centered around equipment. Give it some thought...you'll come up with it. The odd part regarding the protest is it came right after the record was set...and Dallas played no part in the game. THe protest was not made when the individual started the season......just AFTER the record was set.

 

[scubadoo]

DArth..are you familiar with how Dallas was able to hock Walsh the rag arm QB? Johnson realized after he drafted Wash as a supplemental pick that he made a mistake. he admitted to his coaches that he did not realize what it would take to be a QB in the NFL. He promptly instructed his coashes and all officals within the Dallas organization to sing the praises of Walsh. Say nothing against him....keep saying he is a great talent, smart, etc.
This is how they were able to pull the big scam on New Orleans and get the one, two, three pics. . The record will show Walsh never did have the talent to be a starting QB in the NFL.

 

[scubadoo]

Darth.....After you come up with the answer I will share with you a funny story surrounding the events that led to the record. It is quite laughable and a real hoot to a die hard football fan. it is almost unbeleivable but happened which makes it even a funnier story IMO.
I'll leave Schbert out of it...he is still trying to figure out the 3-4 defense....but what is the most improtant position on the 3-4 defense? Folks often overlook this...but wihout this...success is very limited using a 3-4.

 

[darth tang]

I can't come up with the record answer. The 60's are usually out of knowledge but I have some.
With the 3 four it can beargued the DT or Nose tackle is the most important position because it is their job to hit the blocking back first so the running back can be stopped by a linebacker. However I personally feel the outside Linebacker is the key as this position has to be a run stopper as well as a pass rusher. If your outside Linebackers can't get pressure on the QB or stop the run, the formation is useless.

 

[darth tang]

Oh, and as far as Walsh goes, I never did understand why anyone thought he had the makings of an NFL QB. When Dallas took him I was surprised but since it was Supplemental pick it wasn't that big of a deal.

 

[scubadoo]

The Nose Tackle is the most important position on th 3-4..but his job is to occupy at least two lineman...this will free up the middle linebackers to make tackles. The 3-4 is vulnerable up the middle. Without a nose tackle that knows how to play the postion...teams will pound the ball inside. it is a defense that parcells wants to run...but he best have at least two guys that can play nose takle.
The record that was protested by Dallas. was Tom Dempsey's 63 yard field goal. As I give the matter some thought...It may have occurred in 1970 or 71. The Saints played the Detriot Lions. The protest was based on Schramm's contention the shoe Dempsey wore was illegal. However, it was league approved and the "surface" that comprised the club area of his foot was the same surface on the shoe as the socker style kickers shoes that had started entering the league. The achievement of Tom Dempsey was amazing for a guy born with a club/deformed kicking foot and a deformed arm. The league dismissed the protest as baseless.
Now for the funny story...JD Roberts (a guy that had semi-pro head coaching experience) was the newly appointed coach about mid-year. it was his first game as a head coach in the NFL. Detriot had scored and squibbed kicked. The Saints ran one play and there was about 2 seconds left. The coaches in the both screamed to send the kicker in..kick ...kick it.......JD started to send in the punter/punting team....they screamed..not the punter...send in Stumpy!!!!!!!!!! (Tom's nickname)
JD Roberts was an idiot with zero haed coaching experience in the NFL...he did n ot last long...After the kick was made the coach JD Roberts was carried off the fiield on the players shoulders. Tom was asked why did the team not carry him off the field..as per usual with the player that wins the game and breaks a record. Dempsey replied ...the coach was so stupid he would have gotten lost on his way to the lockeroom. The question was asked a few years later.
A true story!

 

[schubert]

Wow...this forum sort of exploded after I left apparently...no scuba I don't know all of those little questions you had for me. I am not a 'student' of the game, although I do know the basics of the 3-4 / 4-3 defenses thank you. I don't go around reading books about football history buddy, I'm 17 years old. Whatever I learn I pick up by chance, not intention, through watching. I am only

[hr]
in that I am a fan of Dallas - always have been, always will be regardless of our success of failure in the future.
In reality, sports are over-analyzed anyway. You can develop complex game plans, depth charts, and fantastic plays all day long - but none of that means anything compared to the will to take the ball and put it across the goal line - period. That's all you have to do. Not saying it's easy, but that's what you have to do.

 

[darth tang]

but he best have at least two guys that can play nose takle.
He does............free agency pick up (can't remember his name want to say Wilkerson) and La Roi Glover.

 

[scubadoo]

Glover is too small to play the postion...he was a free agent signing from the Saints and I beleive originally entered the league with the Raiders. Wilkerson....Big Daddy Dan Wilkerson? He probably can play the postition...Glover cannot but is a good pash rusher. He'll probably move to defensinve end but he is really too short for that postion. A natural tackle but he cannot play heads up on a center...he'll get blown off the line by most centers ....especailly since the d'line will be a man short in the 3-4. It will be his job to occupy two...doubt Glover can do it.

 

[darth tang]

It was Jason Ferguson, not Wilkerson. Knew it ended in "on". lol
Parcells drafted 3 defensive lineman without two of which have the ability to play inside and outside. He is thinking like the cowboys of the early 90's. With the 3-4 your DT needs to be strong and have endurance. But like the Cowboys of the 90's he is hoping to be able to have no lineman play more than 60% of the plays. This makes sense. Last year Glover played a little over 90% of the plays with little help from a decent DT next to him in the 4 3, so he was basically playing in a 3-4 depending on how you look at it.. This wears you down and eventually you can't stop the run very well as your guys get tired from banging. A rotation will eventually wear down offensive lineman and cause the running game to falter....Plus with the adition of new cornerbacks, Roy williams as I said can play closer to the line for the run more than having to worry about pass coverage as much like last year. Hopefully.
While Ferguson isn't a great pass rusher he is great against the run....so with him and Glover rotating and the other rookies if they come along. It should work.

 

[darth tang]

Here is a list of their Def Line currently.
92 Brooks, Jermaine
91 Carson, Leonardo
93 Coleman, Kenyon
98 Ellis, Greg
95 Ferguson, Jason
97 Glover, La'Roi
90 Ogbogu, Eric
94 Ware, Demarcus
96

[hr]
, Marcus
74 Canty, Chris
66 Ratliff, Jay
68 Johnson, Thomas
64 Van Hoy, Chris