Nitrogen Cycle Question

locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Hi there,
I have a question about the nitrogen cycle. When a new tank is setup and "live rock" (or anything else for that matter, except "live fish") is used to establish the cycle. After the ammonia and nitrite levels zero out, than the tank is considered cycled. The question is as follows;
After the tank is cycled and no fish (additional bioload) is added to the tank, will the nitrogen cycle be perpetual?
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
I would think that if there was no bioload added to a cycled tank that the bacteria would begin to die off in relationship to the food available just like anything else. Would there be a point where the bacteria colony would degrade to a point where there was only enough to cycle the bacteria die off?
I don't know, makes my brain sore trying to rationalize it........
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by locoyo386
http:///forum/post/2949923
Hi there,
I have a question about the nitrogen cycle. When a new tank is setup and "live rock" (or anything else for that matter, except "live fish") is used to establish the cycle. After the ammonia and nitrite levels zero out, than the tank is considered cycled. The question is as follows;
After the tank is cycled and no fish (additional bioload) is added to the tank, will the nitrogen cycle be perpetual?
No. Without food the bacterial population will slowly dwindle. It's pretty slow but measurable.
I recommend ghost feeding the tank while it's empty to maintain a thriving bacteria population.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2949945
No. Without food the bacterial population will slowly dwindle. It's pretty slow but measurable.
I recommend ghost feeding the tank while it's empty to maintain a thriving bacteria population.
So the die off will not be enough to sustain itself, but will be enough untill livestock is added say in 2-4 weeks?
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2949947
Bang would it dwindle to the point of non-existance enventually?
Will the bacterial decay (die off) provide ammonia?
If so, than I would imagine it would be a function of how much ammonia is produce due to the die off vs how much bacterial growth that will aoccur with the die off ammoina.
I would insert the mini mpeg here you have "brain exploding"
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2949947
Bang would it dwindle to the point of non-existance enventually?
In centuries, sure

The drop would be quick at first and then slow. Kind of like walking half-way to a wall, and then walking half-way again over & over. You never really get there but at first it's pretty quick.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2949958
In centuries, sure

The drop would be quick at first and then slow. Kind of like walking half-way to a wall, and then walking half-way again over & over. You never really get there but at first it's pretty quick.
Ah, so it's like the question asked in calculas;
If you cut the distnace in half and keep doing this, will it ever reach zero?
Well the initial die off will be significant than. right?
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by locoyo386
http:///forum/post/2949948
So the die off will not be enough to sustain itself, but will be enough untill livestock is added say in 2-4 weeks?
I strongly recommend ghost feeding. Feed the tank the same amount you would feed your first fish.
This will avoid an ammonia spike when you add the fish.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2949958
Kind of like walking half-way to a wall, and then walking half-way again over & over. You never really get there but at first it's pretty quick.
Great analogy. Hats off to you!!!
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2949958
In centuries, sure

The drop would be quick at first and then slow. Kind of like walking half-way to a wall, and then walking half-way again over & over. You never really get there but at first it's pretty quick.
Let me posse this scenario. You have LR in your tank and you are not ghost feeding. There is some die off. Now as we all know nitrifying bacteria colonization does not occur in the water column. So is it not possible that if the ammonia that is produced by the die off does not come in contact with the LR but instead is in constant contact with whatever mechanical device we have employed for water movement in the tank. Now over time nitrification bactera colonize on said device. Would you not have the LR continue to die off and in fact feed the colony that is coming in constant contact with the ammonia rich water. And if that is so would the LR not rapidly die as more and more of its own die off is used by the newly formed colony? This IMO would get you to a point of nothing to degrade rater rapidly once the process started.
But then again this is coming to you from someone who has posted a picture of a fish themed martini glass
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2950961
Let me posse this scenario. You have LR in your tank and you are not ghost feeding. There is some die off. Now as we all know nitrifying bacteria colonization does not occur in the water column. So is it not possible that if the ammonia that is produced by the die off does not come in contact with the LR but instead is in constant contact with whatever mechanical device we have employed for water movement in the tank.Ammonia must come in contact with the rock. How could it be otherwise? Now over time nitrification bactera colonize on said device. The bacteria colonize on all hard surfaces in the system.Would you not have the LR continue to die off and in fact feed the colony that is coming in constant contact with the ammonia rich water. And if that is so would the LR not rapidly die as more and more of its own die off is used by the newly formed colony? This IMO would get you to a point of nothing to degrade rater rapidly once the process started.
But then again this is coming to you from someone who has posted a picture of a fish themed martini glass
And must have been filling and refilling the said martini glass!!!
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Let me posse this scenario. You have LR in your tank and you are not ghost feeding. There is some die off. Now as we all know nitrifying bacteria colonization does not occur in the water column. So is it not possible that if the ammonia that is produced by the die off does not come in contact with the LR but instead is in constant contact with whatever mechanical device we have employed for water movement in the tank. Now over time nitrification bactera colonize on said device. Would you not have the LR continue to die off and in fact feed the colony that is coming in constant contact with the ammonia rich water. And if that is so would the LR not rapidly die as more and more of its own die off is used by the newly formed colony? This IMO would get you to a point of nothing to degrade rater rapidly once the process started.
But then again this is coming to you from someone who has posted a picture of a fish themed martini glass
I am just a little ok a lot confused as to how my original post turned into the one you quoted
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
I think that your question containing the statement "So is it not possible that if the ammonia that is produced by the die off does not come in contact with the LR" didn't make any sense to me because the ammonia is in the water and will come in contact with the live rock and all other hard surfaces in the tank and filter system. This, to me, made the whole question, well, questionable. Hence the thought that maybe it was and adult beverage inspired postulation.
Now, is there something I am missing?
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2950981
I think that your question containing the statement "So is it not possible that if the ammonia that is produced by the die off does not come in contact with the LR" didn't make any sense to me because the ammonia is in the water and will come in contact with the live rock and all other hard surfaces in the tank and filter system. This, to me, made the whole question, well, questionable. Hence the thought that maybe it was and adult beverage inspired postulation.
Now, is there something I am missing?
yes you are assuming that the water with the ammonia will come into contact with the live rock is it Not possible that the ammonia with in the water gets taken into the intake of the mechanical device and discharged into a flow that is a cycle that does not allow it to pass over the rock
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
That would have us suppose that the ammonia is immediatley transferred from the rock dieoff directly to said mechanical device and then immediately absorbed in full by said mechanical device and clean water returned to the system.
In my small brain I cannot see this scenario happening in the real world, but if it is a "just suppose this could happen" type question to play along with the okay I get that.
I am feeling real stupid here Joe, I hope I am not missing something that is staring me right in the face!
 
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